Fair to Muslims?

Discussion in 'Americas' started by Ray, Mar 10, 2011.

  1. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    If one were a Muslim, indeed the animosity towards Muslims does appear unfair, more so, to the law abiding Muslim who justifiably is angered that all are being clubbed with the radical fundamentalists who are ravaging the world. This is a very natural reaction.

    The flip side is that there is no cognizable outrage within the Muslim community at large in the world against these Islamic deviates who, in the name of religion, slaughter, terrorise and unleash mayhem, not only against what they called kaffirs, but also against fellow Muslims and more so, against those they feel are Muslim deviates because they do not follow their version of Islam.

    The Governments of Islamic nations, except Indonesia, are very hesitant to take action against fundamentalist organisations which openly spread hatred and engage in terrorist activities, some even sponsored and abetted by such Govt security institutions.

    Therefore, this is a justifiable trust deficit and an apprehension that Muslims are merely indulging in cosmetic anger and are actually in sympathy with the fundamentalists.

    People wonder that if the Islamic sects can have their own 'armies' to fight one sect of Islam against the other deeming them as deviates, then cannot the Muslim also not show the same alacrity and sagacity against the real fundamentalists and their organisation which they dub as indulging in acts that are not Islamic and contrary to the tenets of Islam?

    Therefore, in this conundrum of confusion, the 'thinking and rational' Muslim gets crushed in the vicelike grip of universal doubt of Muslim intent.

    While Akbar Ahmed, the author of this piece may be agonised by the heart breaking tale of Muslim children branded as 'terrorists' or attacks on Hijab wearing Muslim women or mosques being firebombed, he should realise that Muslims have also brought woe and terror to non Muslim by their attitude, like on the Sikhs in the US, who are killed mistakenly taken as Muslim!! In fact, their tale is more heart wrenching and totally unfair, if anyone claims that the world is being unfair to them! The world is actually being unfair and cruel to those who are being killed for being taken as Muslims, when they have no connection to Islam!!

    Bill O'Reilly is wrong to compare the Koran to Hitler's 'Mein Kampf". However, he is not a Muslim to understand the Koranic injunctions in the manner that a Muslim understands. He is possibly thunderstruck by the translations where there appears to be suggestions that 'Islam is uber alles". It must be also understood that while the US maybe an engine of intellect, yet there are a vast majority who are what is colloquially known as being 'dumb'. The US has their repertoire overflowing with 'intellects' like Sarah Palin who sees Russia from her window and Joe the Plumbers!! To believe that they should be rational and not Obama Bin L and his merry men, would not be fair either!! Therefore, it is hardly open season against Muslims.

    If the Muslims felt under siege over the proposed Islamic centre in Lower Manhattan, then there were good reasons for the Americans to make them feel so. I reckon it is the same feeling that the Americans have as the Muslims have over the Babri Mazjid demotion. If one is outraged that the Islamic centre is not allowed where Islamist demolished Americans iconic building and killed many innocents, then one could say that the Muslims should not have any qualms or anger over the demolition of the Babri mazjid, more so, since no Muslim died!! No, Ahmed saheb, what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander and your contention is misplaced and a trifle of a whine.

    The Nigerian Muslim and the bearded Muslim leader are frauds if they say that Jefferson was a champion of freedom, religious or otherwise. Jefferson was a hypocrite. He may have waxed eloquence about freedom, but that freedom was confined to the 'whiteman'. The Nigerian and the bearded man apparently conveniently forgot that he has slaves and he even had sex with them. Therefore, what freedom are they talking about? Being PC are they since they have to live in the US which is milk and honey compared to their impoverished countries?

    On the issue of Muslims being 'good Americans' it should not have been such a surprise to be asked this. While other communities attempt to mingle with the country they go to, the Muslims make it a point to flaunt their difference like a red rag to a bull. One can give example, but then let it pass.

    That Americans know nothing of Islam and their claim that they have not met any Muslim is possibly true. If Islam has a scary image, then who would like to know about it. Ignorance is after all Bliss!

    What is wrong if the FBI appears to be 'studying' Muslim? If one has nothing to hide, who cares? Of course it is an invasion of privacy, but then the Patriot Act itself is an attack on privacy and all that the American flaunt as freedom!!

    Now if Faisal Shahzad, the Pakistani immigrant who confessed to the attempted car bombing in Times Square last May, was motivated by a desire to avenge drone strikes in his native province and felt so strongly, he should have renounced the comfort of the US and gone and joined AQ and then come back to wreak havoc. He should not have been a namak haram since that goes against the subcontinental ethos and culture!!

    It is an emotion blackmail to write - If a civil, respectful level of discussion and debate is not maintained in these hearings, and if a demonization of Muslims results, the news coverage in the Muslim world could feed into the high levels of anti-Americanism in countries like Afghanistan and Pakistan. This would play against the interests of American diplomats and troops in Muslim nations who have advocated the winning of Muslim hearts and minds.

    As if, by being tolerant it will change the way things are going on in Afghanistan or Pakistan!! The issue of Muslim in the US is to win the hearts and minds of Americans if they want to live a peaceful and happy mind. And they should not worry too much as to how many US soldiers die out there wherever they are!

    As I see it, this Islam vs the Rest is the most unfortunate thing that could have happened. It was calm before. It erupted because of fundamentalists going berserk seeking the return of the Caliphate and the good old days when the Islamic Empire spread across a large part of the world.

    It time to stop day dreaming and face the real world.

    No religion is uber alles. While one can within him feel so, it would be unwise to flaunt so to aggravate those not of the fold.

    It is time to bury religion within one's heart, quit flaunting, and live the happiness and miseries of the world as equal citizens of the countries we belong to and be beyond our religious divides.

    The more we try to justify or attempt to rationalise the wrong and the skewed, the more we will keep the issue alive and more will be the disharmony.

    We are all the same people.

    Hamam men sab nanga!

    Let us not forget that!
     
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  3. JBH22

    JBH22 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Do you know masturbation is a crime that is awarded death penalty in Indonesia.
    Muslim scholars have a feeling of superiority over other religion and this "Holier than thou" attitude has been an intrinsic part of Islam which has manifested itself in the form of conquest,terrorism etc.
    I never heard a Muslim saying that all religion are equal and its the path that leads to god instead they are first to label others as idol worshipers or Kafirs.

    Also why is that always others must accommodate Islam isn't it the duty of Muslim to adapt to the country they are immigrating Take UK for example you have racist pigs continually hurling threats to the so called non believers has there been widespread condemnation by other Muslims in UK for these racist??

    These days for saying these things one gets quickly label as a racist but i believe Muslim have serious problems with all people who do not follow their religion
     
    Tshering22 likes this.
  4. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    I hope you are aware that Masturbation in Islam is only allowed in the very rare situation where:


    * if the person did not do this, they genuinely fear that they would fall into actual zina (i.e. unlawful sexual intercourse), because of their uncontrollable desire, and
    * they are unable to marry, and
    * have taken all reasonable means to lessen their passion (such as fasting, lowering their gaze, avoiding meat and dairy products, avoiding those things that stir their desires, such as bad company, spending unnecessary time outdoors, especially in public places such as shopping malls where there is fitna, avoiding watching tv and surfing the internet, etc).


    In such cases, it is not haram because of the principle that, "If there are only two options, but harmful, then one takes the lesser of the two harms to avoid the greater one."

    As far as Indonesia is concerned, their important cleric Ba'asyir is facing terrorism charges and may be given the death penalty.

    Can that be said of other Islamic countries?

    Pakistan, which claims to be the champion of Islam, refuses to bring any terrorist or cleric to jsutice. Its ISI help and sustain terrorists and terrorist organisations!!
     
  5. amitkriit

    amitkriit Senior Member Senior Member

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    Muslim leaders talk about Freedom, Democracy, Rule of law only when it suites them, i.e. when they are living in Dar al-Harb(A land ruled by infidels), but their tone and priorities change once they manage to overpower the disbelievers and establish Dar al-Islam. Their priorities shift to establishing an "Islamic State" and ensuring that those involved in Blasphemy and Apostasy get death sentence.

    I have talked to Muslims living in Islamic Countries and they insist that a person is either Muslim or he is not and there is nothing called a "Secular or moderate Muslim". The great preacher Zakir Naik insists that all faiths except Islam are ridiculous and untrue.

    Given these circumstances, its hard to believe that the kind of leaders Muslims have decided to follow have indeed managed earned the respect for their community which they feel they deserve.Playing "Innocent victims", inventing new "Conspiracy theories" and trying to interpret everything from "Religious angle" are not going to serve this community well.
     
  6. niharjhatn

    niharjhatn Regular Member

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    I believe that it is an unfortunate trait in all Abrahamical religions. They all preach one path to god - the way that is set out in their koran, bible, etc. Differences arise solely by different interpretations. Furthermore, these faiths are intrinsically antithetical to other faiths. In these religions' version of Qayamat / end of the world (Judgement day), only Christians/Muslims/Jews survive and the rest of humanity are left on a tumultuous earth to rue their sins.

    Contrast this with Hinduism or Buddhism, where all paths to god are open, and in fact, people are encouraged to find their own - All paths lead to Him and so on.

    The innate close-mindedness of those Abrahamical religion is what is leads to the attitude you mentioned. Its their way or the highway!
     
  7. The Messiah

    The Messiah Bow Before Me! Elite Member

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    Christian yank claiming the quran is the devils work is an idiot in the first place since majority of the stuff written in the quran is also written in the bible thus making the bible also evil ie according to this logic. Infact the old testament (which is the real deal) and quran are nearly identical and share the same beliefs and not to mention worship the same god.
     
  8. mattster

    mattster Respected Member Senior Member

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    As someone who was raised Christian, I totally agree with your comment. All Abrahamical faiths have this "its my way or you are doomed" attitude.
    Its the worst aspect of these 3 faiths.

    But there is fundamental difference between Islam and Judaism/Christianity. Christians and Jews are not openly hostile towards other faiths, but Muslims are. Even if they are not openly hostile, it is always under the surface. Look at the plight of non-Muslims in every Muslim country. Enough said !!
     
  9. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    It is true that the Abrahamical faiths have this 'either you are with us or against us' tenets, these are getting slowly smoothed at the edges with emancipated thinking and greater tolerance with the passing of time and visioned by the reality of the live issues of contemporary existence.

    This is more so relevant in the Indian context.
     
  10. Tshering22

    Tshering22 Sikkimese Saber Senior Member

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    Your first 3 lines speak tremendous facts that very few here would be courageous enough to accept without warning you for a ban or apologize for "offending" someone. Thanks for speaking the truth. About time people need to open up two ways. There are dozens of communities living in West including many Buddhists, Hindus and others; how come they never have a problem with the host community?

    Take any non-Islamic country for that matter: there is always at least half a dozen bare minimum incidents recorded or come to note where there has been some or the other problems between the non-Islamic and Islamic communities in any part of the world. How come Tibetans, Hindus, other streams of Buddhists, Sikhs, Jews, Voodoos, Masais etc and scores of other communities don't have trouble with host communities?

    I was researching on this sort of stuff and was shocked to note that almost all prominent non-Islamic countries suffer from this sort of mentality. It is this very reason why there is a clash of civilizations happening no matter how much any apologist or secularist (India-type) likes to refuse.
     
  11. Tshering22

    Tshering22 Sikkimese Saber Senior Member

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    A wishful thinking sir. Not happening in reality. Perhaps in big cities like Mumbai. But the vast majority areas it is different.
     
  12. Nonynon

    Nonynon Regular Member

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    Actually Islam by the book should be very limited in that sense because they aren't supposed to forcefully convert Jews and Christians. Unfortunately that co-existance in Islam is only limited to that and they are allowed to do whatever they want to Hindus, pagans and all the rest. Also, the fact that that's what the Koran says doesn't mean they always follow it, Muslims forcefully converted and persecuted Christains and Jews many times but until around 100-200 years ago it helped make them generally more tolerant.
    For Christianity the saying 'either you are with us or against us' was/is more true in some places and times then in others because the Christian world was always very divided politically and every country had its tolerance at difference levels. I think the majority of it started being tolerant around the Napoleonic times when nationality started to completely overtake religion as a sense of belonging for the average person.
    In Judaism tolerance is in the Bible and never was too much a problem. That's mainly because we believe in keeping the Jewish blood Jewish and not mingling with others so because were so little people and we don't want to convert many people then how can we challenge the world and try to have it all like the ideal world Muslims and Christians dream for?
    But I get you're point, most of the time the majority of the Abrahamic religions people did believe in challenging all the world's different religions. However I think the decline in such thinking lately is thanks to the advance of nationalism in the Muslim world more then anything else.

    Don't mix Christianity and Islam with Judaism. We don't believe that would happen and more so, we believe god cares about non-Jewish people too. We even have stories in the Bible about how god helps the non-Jews and acts as everyone's god (some very important people in the Bible aren't Jewish), as in the fact he chose the Jewish people doesn't mean he left the rest to rot.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2011
  13. Sabir

    Sabir DFI TEAM Senior Member

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    There are devil's version of all religious books and only those are in prints nowadays...........
     
  14. amitkriit

    amitkriit Senior Member Senior Member

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    Nobody could put it more perfectly. People have mixed politics and religion and invented the most lethal cocktail which could ever be created.
     
  15. Nonynon

    Nonynon Regular Member

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    I'm not a Muslim but for what I know Muslims use both the Jewish Bible and the christian New testimony. What the Koran is for is give the missing Islamic elements that doesn't show in the other sources + some changes to stuff from the other sources. The fact it repeats certain stuff from the new testimony and the Bible just makes it easier for a Muslim to pray with it and not need any other Jewish or Christian books to do so. So when Christians call it the devil's book, it means they hate the book, not every single thing about it.
    Yes, comparing Islam and Christianity to Hinduism they are practically the same but the small differences make them bitter rivals, the size of the differences is always relative after all.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2011
  16. vishal_lionheart

    vishal_lionheart Regular Member

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    @ Nonynon, You have a good knowledge brother
     

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