"F-22 raptor " to India ?

Kshatriya87

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Tell me one branch of Indian military that isn't making compromises with domestic products? Our soldiers uses the INSAS despite quality issues, many lay down their lives because of this faulty weapon. Still they never sit on a virtual dharna like the IAF does, they never blackmail the nation for top notch Scar 17 rifles, they make do with what is given without complaining because they understand that we have a budget and we need to live within our means. Our Navy has been at the forefront of all indigenization. When we bought 6 scorpene they felt so guilty that they made an alternative recommendation to the MOD to acquire ToT to produce domestically and vowed to never buy subs from a foreign vendor again. That is what integrity is all about. Once they buy a foreign product for lack of a domestic alternative, they AT LEAST try to learn the tech to avoid importing that type of tech again in the future.

Now, tell me, this IAF has been importing planes after planes from various foreign vendor, do they show an iota of guilt for not trying to collaborate with DRDO to build a domestic plane? Do they seem sad to you? on the contrary they proudly keep recommending foreign planes while making absolutely ZERO plans for indigenous production. They are spoiled brats who only want to fly imported planes, they don't give a shit about national mission to build domestically. What's the alternative you ask? well, what alternative did Army and Navy have? didn't they compromise? didn't they voluntarily LEARN the skills to make things indigenously? Is the IAF showing any such inclinations? look yourself in the mirror and ask yourself, do you think IAF is being honest or dishonest? If not forced, then these brats will NEVER adopt Indian technologies. It has never been on their priority list. @Krusty is right.

Name one Russian equipment that is better than American counterpart in the same category? none. Does that mean that they import American weapons? If the equipment lacks quality, they build it in more quantity to make up for it. Here is a good article about the whole 'expensive cutting edge weapons vs frugal ingenuity' debate that you and I are having right now. Read it, it will change your perspective.

What America Can Learn From Russia's Cheap But Deadly T90 Tank
Still haven't answered my question. Is there a better plane in India right now as compared to western? Can we afford to use Tejas with F-16s as opponents? No. Just like I said in my last post, buy capable planes now to defend Indian airspace. Learn the tech. Simultaneously use that tech to develop Indian planes.

Isn't that what the rafale deal is? Make some of them in India. This will not only give us protection till we develop our own plane but also give us the tech that can be learned and used for our future fighters.

My point is simple. We do not have any Indian plane that can compete with F-16s etc.Till we don't have, buy & learn tech from other capable planes whilst simultaneously developing our own fighter.
 

Nuvneet Kundu

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Still haven't answered my question. Is there a better plane in India right now as compared to western? Can we afford to use Tejas with F-16s as opponents? No. Just like I said in my last post, buy capable planes now to defend Indian airspace. Learn the tech. Simultaneously use that tech to develop Indian planes.

Isn't that what the rafale deal is? Make some of them in India. This will not only give us protection till we develop our own plane but also give us the tech that can be learned and used for our future fighters.

My point is simple. We do not have any Indian plane that can compete with F-16s etc.Till we don't have, buy & learn tech from other capable planes whilst simultaneously developing our own fighter.
I've answered your question. There is no rule that says that we need to buy the best available weapon. We need to formulate the best possible holistic solution to our needs. Do you eat in 5 star restro every day because is is the best food or do you buy whatever suits your budget?

Seems like some AAPtard has influenced your brain. Read that link instead of debating for the sake of ego battles. It addresses the concerns of 'high quality equipment' vs 'low quality-high quantity equipment'. No western plane is better than a group of Tejas. We can bulk manufacture to overcome our technical handicap.
 

Kshatriya87

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I've answered your question. There is no rule that says that we need to buy the best available weapon. We need to formulate the best possible holistic solution to our needs. Do you eat in 5 star restro every day because is is the best food or do you buy whatever suits your budget?

Seems like some AAPtard has influenced your brain. Read that link instead of debating for the sake of ego battles. It addresses the concerns of 'high quality equipment' vs 'low quality-high quantity equipment'. No western plane is better than a group of Tejas. We can bulk manufacture to overcome our technical handicap.
Another super dumb comparison from you. Comparing fighter jets with food. We don't defend airspace with food you know.

Hats off for your ability to think of such dumbass comparisons. :yo:
 

Kshatriya87

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I've answered your question. There is no rule that says that we need to buy the best available weapon. We need to formulate the best possible holistic solution to our needs. Do you eat in 5 star restro every day because is is the best food or do you buy whatever suits your budget?

Seems like some AAPtard has influenced your brain. Read that link instead of debating for the sake of ego battles. It addresses the concerns of 'high quality equipment' vs 'low quality-high quantity equipment'. No western plane is better than a group of Tejas. We can bulk manufacture to overcome our technical handicap.
And how will you "bulk manufacture" fighter pilots who will rain down from sky when the Tejas are shot down in "bulk". :laugh::pound::pound:
 

Krusty

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Indigenous industry can only be given some attention if they develop an aircraft worthy of its purpose. They give something like Tejas and expect IAF to lead with it, it causes nothing but trouble for Indian defense. First produce something that is worthy of being inducted in IAF, then they will get proper revenue and India can think of becoming a superpower.
This is exactly the problem. We want the best of everything RIGHT NOW. No, it doesn't work that way. How Long has Tata been building cars? It started out with a JV with Daimler all the way back in 1945. Yet they can't even make a world class Diesel engine even today with all their funds and manufacturing infrastructure. Mahinda Ran to proton (how many even know of this tiny company?) to develop the suspension for the Scorpio. If something like a small diesel engine requires so Long a time to mature. How can we expect high tech Defence industry to mature so shortly? Not to mention the pathetic funding they operate on. We still don't have the complete infrastructure to test jet engines end to end. They are a one time investment. And yet we couldn't build it for the past 30 odd years when the air force was busy inducting shiny MKI's and negotiating with sukhoi for 5th Gen aircrafts. People should understand. As Long as we just keep buying off foreign companies, we will NEVER catch up. It's stupid to even remotely expect DRDO to deliver a world class product without the effort and support that it requires. Arjun is a classic case. The army has already started salivating at the sight of armata. I'm not saying we completely stop imports. We should gradually reduce it. The eurofighter consortium with all major European Defence players along with their funds and expertise started the eurofighter program in the late 70s. When was it formally introduced? 2003. Considering the amount of expertise, funding and infrastructure available (Not to mention the sanctions at the time) to HAL/ADA, they have done an absolutely smashing job with the tejas. Oh btw, kaveri already in its current form has a higher thrust (dry and AB) than the snecma on the rafale. How many even noticed? We can never expect to get to the top (read superpower) without putting in the dedication, commitment and hard work (and funding). As Long as we take short cuts, we can forget the very idea. This is not only true in Defence, but equally true in every other field.
 

Kshatriya87

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This is exactly the problem. We want the best of everything RIGHT NOW. No, it doesn't work that way. How Long has Tata been building cars? It started out with a JV with Daimler all the way back in 1945. Yet they can't even make a world class Diesel engine even today with all their funds and manufacturing infrastructure. Mahinda Ran to proton (how many even know of this tiny company?) to develop the suspension for the Scorpio. If something like a small diesel engine requires so Long a time to mature. How can we expect high tech Defence industry to mature so shortly? Not to mention the pathetic funding they operate on. We still don't have the complete infrastructure to test jet engines end to end. They are a one time investment. And yet we couldn't build it for the past 30 odd years when the air force was busy inducting shiny MKI's and negotiating with sukhoi for 5th Gen aircrafts. People should understand. As Long as we just keep buying off foreign companies, we will NEVER catch up. It's stupid to even remotely expect DRDO to deliver a world class product without the effort and support that it requires. Arjun is a classic case. The army has already started salivating at the sight of armata. I'm not saying we completely stop imports. We should gradually reduce it. The eurofighter consortium with all major European Defence players along with their funds and expertise started the eurofighter program in the late 70s. When was it formally introduced? 2003. Considering the amount of expertise, funding and infrastructure available (Not to mention the sanctions at the time) to HAL/ADA, they have done an absolutely smashing job with the tejas. Oh btw, kaveri already in its current form has a higher thrust (dry and AB) than the snecma on the rafale. How many even noticed? We can never expect to get to the top (read superpower) without putting in the dedication, commitment and hard work (and funding). As Long as we take short cuts, we can forget the very idea. This is not only true in Defence, but equally true in every other field.
You are right there. All I'm saying is that since we don't have an option right now, buy something like rafale with a package of make in India (which is the case already) so we can get the technology as well. Meanwhile, do not stop making our own fighter. Once we have something that is capable enough, we make and use those.
 

Krusty

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Colourful language. Where are the mods? Everyone jumps in when I talk about TN ... No one now? :frusty:
 

spikey360

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If anyone from IAF even as much dare utter the name of F22 in any context other than that of rivalry and challenge, he should be arrested and tried for treason.
This is the US jackals' build up of trying to wean India away from quality Russian hardware, which the US cannot match in price, ever.
 

ezsasa

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Just to clarify, F-22 production has been stopped. It can't be sold even if someone wants to buy, and don't forget that plane is a big white elephant. Maintenance cost is enormous.
 

Batfan

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Still haven't answered my question. Is there a better plane in India right now as compared to western? Can we afford to use Tejas with F-16s as opponents? No. Just like I said in my last post, buy capable planes now to defend Indian airspace. Learn the tech. Simultaneously use that tech to develop Indian planes.

Isn't that what the rafale deal is? Make some of them in India. This will not only give us protection till we develop our own plane but also give us the tech that can be learned and used for our future fighters.

My point is simple. We do not have any Indian plane that can compete with F-16s etc.Till we don't have, buy & learn tech from other capable planes whilst simultaneously developing our own fighter.
That's why we have foreign fighters like Su-30MKI and IAF is more than capable to deal with PAF and its f-16. The 36 rafale deal too is important as we need the tech but going for F22 is ridiculous. We have capable fighter and air defence system to protect ourselves for some time to come so instead of going for more foreign products R&D is the best way.

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guru-dutt

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"Muilenburg also flagged the F-22 Raptor, a fifth-generation fighter jointly developed with Lockheed Martin Corp, as a future sales prospect for India, calling it "an area of future investment for which we are interested".

http://www.reuters.com/article/india-boeing-superhornet-idUSKCN0VC0IB

^will they sell their top secret plane to India ?? USA has been reluctant to provide the F-22 even to allies like Japan , Israel & Britain .

what is the meaning of "Idea of future investment " ? possibility of make in India ??

and we need this plane or Pak-fa is sufficient for us ?

is it just an American strategy to sell F-18 ??
it is american strategy to sell F-18 + the signal that american sixth gen fighter is bieng readied to be used by USAF after which the export of F22 will be okayed for very close allies like UK , Australia. Japan, Israel and perhaps india but for that we have to be a "true ally"
 

guru-dutt

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India must not accept whatever USA is offering and become its ally (slave).
USA has not offerred F22 to india and it will never until it has its 6th gen fighter flying but then india is already come a long way in R&D with its AMCA poject & FGFA/PAKFA so forget it for at least 10 years minnimum
 

manutdfan

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USS Enterprise
Death Star
Optimus Primes
Micheal Bay Explosion Effects kit 4k resolution
Ha Ha Ha Ha :rofl:Good one bro. A Death Star would be a fine addition to our arsenal.

Now moving on to serious matters-
If anybody has read my previous posts it's quite obvious that I simply hate the JSF F-35 no matter how many fucktards defend it with all their lame ass arguments of 'ooohhh it's stealth' or 'wow look it's got all these sensors which can look over and beyond'. To hell with stealth & sensors that plane is a sitting duck and simply cannot fight an aerial battle simple.

But the F-22...oh man! that's a completely different story. What wouldn't I do to get my hands on this marvel of a fighter.

Yes all the concerns regarding it being super duper expensive and a maintenance nightmare is 100% correct beyond doubt.
But what is also 101% correct is that it's the world's best fighter any given day. It was built to fly high and fly fast and beat the enemy to pulps without even being seen and it does a mighty fine job of that. Not to mention that it's a hell lotta better than the F-35 in a dogfight. The fuckin' Ferrari of the skies indeed.

For once I wouldn't mind the govt. coffers running dry to acquire this masterpiece. I know it's like one of those guilty pleasures which is gonna bankrupt you but hey can't help it, can we?

In the end it's all just wishful thinking anyways. The F-22 is banned under American federal law and I don't see it being lifted anytime soon. True initially the F-15 & F-16 were also under export ban but was later lifted due to upcoming competition from the Russian Su-27 and MiG-29 who were gonna mass export downgraded variants anyways regardless of the Americans. The Raptor as of date has no known competition and I can safely say wouldn't have any till 2030 at the earliest.

Bhakts who are worried about China stealing a march on us with their stealth J-31 and J-20 fighters don't get your panties in a wad, here's their radar signature



and this high resolution close up



:lol:

Need I say more...ultimately it's Chinese man. The nut bolt might fall apart anytime. We all know how capable the Pakis JF-17 fighters are. They don't even have the balls to go toe-to-toe against our Tejas.

Even if the Raptor is cleared for sale it would be sold only to Israel and Japan and maybe the UK at a later stage. India would be quite down the list. Sorry for bustin' all ye daisies' fuckin' bubble but that's the simple fact. India ain't a hotshot yet on the global stage. Maybe by 2050 according to PwC but by then the Americans would have moved on to 7th gen.

Till then keep dreamin' and believe in the PAKFA even if we don't get it by 2030 :india:. Not to mention HAL AMCA. God only knows if it'll ever get off the drawing board.
 

spikey360

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@manutdfan You have touched upon a very valid point about Chinese hardware when you said
Need I say more...ultimately it's Chinese man. The nut bolt might fall apart anytime.
I do not know why some "experts" go absolutely crazy at the mention of Chinese hardware (their numbers, especially). I find it hard to believe how they can build a durable fighter if they cannot build a reliable toy which lasts more than one month of continuous play. Our Bisons are much more reliable than "Chinese Stealth fighter".

For all the hoopla about Chinese "might", it played no noteworthy role in Syria. While Russia, with its "backdated hardware" and "cold war era fighters" ensured that the F22 raptors never dare enter Syrian airspace without prior permission. :D
It is always the Kalashnikovs you see in the hand of the terrorists, never a Chinese "indigenous weapons".
 

sorcerer

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That's why we have foreign fighters like Su-30MKI and IAF is more than capable to deal with PAF and its f-16. The 36 rafale deal too is important as we need the tech but going for F22 is ridiculous. We have capable fighter and air defence system to protect ourselves for some time to come so instead of going for more foreign products R&D is the best way.

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The IAF’s Fleet Strength Is Depleting Fast, But Su-30MKI Is Flying To The Rescue

The IAF is retaining a combat edge – thanks to increased induction of Su-30MKI fighters and the proposed acquisition of Tejas.
The Indian Air Force’s quick fix solution for its fighter crunch is to crank up production of the Su-30 MKI – the backbone of its combat fleet. India had initially contracted with Russia for 272 Sukhois, but that number will in all probability cross 300 by 2019.

With multiple squadrons of older MiG-21 interceptors and MiG-27 ground attack jets being retired in quick succession, the IAF fighter fleet is set to decline to a low of 32 squadrons – or around 576 aircraft. That’s way below the 42 squadrons recommended back in the 1950s.

The scrapping of the 126-aircraft contract with France – plus the delay in the signing of the revised 36-aircraft deal – and the IAF’s lack of confidence in the locally built Tejas have also contributed to the service going in for additional Sukhois.

The faith in the Russian aircraft is justified. With the induction of large numbers of class leading Sukhoi-30 MKI fighters, the IAF has not only made a huge technological transition from a MiG-21 dominated fleet, its war fighting doctrine has also changed, focusing on long-range and strategic missions.
The IAF describes the Sukhoi as its “air dominance fighter” because it allows the service to perform a multiplicity of missions required to keep in step with India’s rising global stature. The Sukhoi’s versatility – owing to its extended range, speed, firepower and super-maneuverability – has given the IAF considerable leeway in deploying the aircraft in offensive missions.

In April 2013 the IAF held its largest-ever combat exercise involving as many as 400 combat aircraft plus 200 transport planes and helicopters. The exercise was aimed at testing the IAF’s capability for a two-front war against China and Pakistan, by deploying “swing forces” from the western theatre right across to the east.


As part of the war games, Sukhoi-30 MKIs flew 1800 km bombing missions from the northeast to the western front, with mid-air refueling. This is possible because the Sukhoi has a range of 4.5 hours on internal fuel, and IAF pilots are known to lead missions over 10 hours.
Quality vs Quantity

In the 1950s, the defence brass recommended 64 squadrons of fighters for the IAF. That was revised down to 42 in the 1960s. However, modern aircraft like the Sukhoi are versatile fighters that not only undertake strike and bombing missions but can also provide combat air patrol, creating a safe envelope for other jets to operate freely.

What it means is that compared with previous generation aircraft, today you need fewer warplanes to get the same job done. Better survivability and lower maintenance also contribute to more aircraft being available for missions.

Three hundred is an impressive number for such a high-end – and expensive weapons – platform. This shows a keen sense of judgement by the IAF, which realizes that 100 percent fleet utilization is impossible and having a large number of air superiority aircraft around is the key to getting the job done.

With such numbers at its disposal, the IAF is now able to build a network of bases around the country. Earlier, because of the short range of IAF fighter aircraft, most Indian air bases – such as Adampur, Jammu, Amritsar and Jodhpur – were close to the Pakistan border. But now Sukhois are also being stationed at places such as Thanjavur in the deep south, Chabua in the northeast and Pune in western India. Because of its long legs and speed, the Sukhois can move between the Pakistan and China fronts when required.

Missile Force-Multipliers



Another reason why India is not short of options in a future war is the induction in massive numbers of the BrahMos supersonic missile. This is really India’s Brahmastra or superweapon. The Indo-Russian BrahMos is a highly destructive missile and belongs to a class of missiles that are designed to cut small warships in half. Indian and Russian scientists have modified the cruise missile to strike targets on land.

Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd is carrying out structural modifications on the Sukhois to enable them to carry the air launched variant of the BrahMos. If the contracting firms are able to reduce the mass and weight of the missile, the aircraft would be able to carry up to three of these missiles.

In previous wars the IAF largely avoided attacks on non-military infrastructure, preferring to target tanker farms and defence bases. The decision to equip the Sukhois with the BrahMos creates new synergies and signals a new intent. In the next war expect a lot of damage to enemy infrastructure – dams, power stations and industrial clusters are all likely to be targeted.

Because the BrahMos can strike targets deep inside enemy territory, it frees up fighter aircraft for other roles and different battlefield theatres. It also obviates the need to expose Indian pilots in potentially dangerous missions.

A supersonic BrahMos:india: launched from the Rajasthan border can strike an airbase in Sargodha or Karachi within seconds. :india:Because of its high kinetic impact, it is the ideal weapon to be launched against, say, hardened aircraft pens or communication bunkers. Because the BrahMos hits without warning, it is like a sniper who creates an atmosphere of panic among enemy troops, impacting their morale.

India will also induct the slower, subsonic Nirbhay cruise missile which is intended for attacking targets that can be taken out without the destructive power of the BrahMos. These might include civilian targets.
In this backdrop of a transformed technological scenario, fewer fighter aircraft are needed to fight tomorrow’s wars. So cries of depleting fighter squadrons are a throwback to a bygone era.:notsure:


After the Rafale Rigmarole


The IAF has done an oversell to the Indian public and the political leadership on the Rafale. The French fighter was a viable option a decade ago when India had the chance to lock in 126 aircraft for $10 billion, give or take. However, that’s ancient history. Today the costs have nearly quadrupled.

Still, if the government has made up its mind to indulge the IAF with a smaller 36-aircraft order for $9 billion, then why not. After all, India spent $8 billion on the shameful, scandalous Commonwealth Games, which made all Indians look grateful to be allowed to acknowledge the doddering British queen as the head of this anachronistic organisation.

At least the Rafale will bring some gains to India in terms of high technology and – perhaps optimistically – defence offsets. Plus, the IAF fleet will have four advanced fighter aircraft, including the Sukhoi, MiG-29 and Mirage 2000, thereby complicating Pakistan’s defence planning. It will almost certainly spur additional wasteful spending by Pakistan,:cruisin2: which is never a bad idea from India’s point of view.

Looking forward to Tejas


Tejas was one of the stars at the air show in Bahrain this month. That it performed without a hitch at a foreign air show is the aeronautical equivalent of human evolution from ape to homo sapien. It’s nothing less than a miracle.

Like Russia’s Sukhoi and MiG series and American F-series aircraft, the Tejas can also evolve into a potent fighter with backing from the IAF and the Indian Navy. By, say 2030, when the Sukhois retire, the Tejas should be able to take over their role. For that the government should get rid of the foreign import mafia that lives on defence commissions. (BrahMos director A. Sivathanu Pillai has written in his book ‘The Path Unexplored’ how he checkmated serving military generals who attempted to scuttle the missile.)

In the meantime, the 300 Sukhois – and the support cast of 59 MiG-29s, 48 Mirage 2000s and upgraded MiG-21s – are more than enough to defend the country and fight a prolonged war.
Source>>
 

Neelkanth

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Dumb Article, = Our Threat perception doesn't need an F22 to counter... And the Fact that its banned by US law for export,
But still I would love to have that bird in our forces! Because the F22 is the most awesome bird out there :D
.
And no one is getting close to stealth of F22, neither the Russians nor the Chinese. So don't get worried about Chinese J 31/ J 20 and don't get excited over T-50 (its a Low RCS bird, not stealth, F22 is stealth)
Ruskies and Chinis, don't have the Tech, experience or the Engine for such a bird. F22 will rule for some time to come.
 

sorcerer

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Reviving F-22 Raptor production a ‘non-starter’

The secretary of the air force has become the latest official to douse hopes of restarting Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor production, which was capped at 187 aircraft and closed in 2011.

The tooling and equipment needed to produce the twin-engine air-superiority fighter, which was barred from export because of its sophistication, remain in storage along with video instructions for various assembly processes.

This equipment will aid in the remanufacture of spare parts for the aircraft and its two Pratt & Whitney F119 engines, but some Raptor advocates want to see the assembly lines in Marietta, Georgia and Fort Worth, Texas reborn. This was done for improved versions of the Lockheed U-2 and Rockwell B-1.



Lockheed Martin

That idea is “pretty much a non-starter,” service secretary Deborah Lee James said when asked about the prospect of resuming serial F-22 production at a recent CSIS event in Washington DC.

“If you were to ask [air force chief of staff Gen Mark Welsh] or any of the uniformed officers in the air force, they would probably tell you they would love to have more F-22s.

“The original plan was to have quite a few more additional F-22s, and it was a regrettable set of circumstances – a combination of budget overruns and taking way longer than originally projected – that actually caused what became an early termination for the F-22 programme.”

Optimised for air-to-air combat in a Cold War fight against Russia, the original requirement was for 750 aircraft. That number later dropped to 339, and then 187 plus eight test aircraft.



Lockheed Martin

Some retired and serving USAF officials have called ending F-22 production “the biggest mistake ever,” particularly as the aircraft sees combat action in Syria, and as Russia and China finalise development of competing fifth-generation combat jets. Former presidential hopeful Mitt Romney even pledged to restart F-22 production during his 2012 campaign.

Air Combat Command chief Gen Herbert “Hawk” Carlisle said in September that he “dreams” about the day F-22 assembly resumes, but admits it’s an expensive proposition. In 2010, a RAND study commissioned by air force placed the cost at $17 billion (2008 dollars) for 75 more aircraft.

“The very prospect of re-opening that [F-22 line] is pretty much a non-starter,” says James. “We’ve got what we’ve got. We’ve got the F-35 coming, approaching initial operating capability. It’s not the same, but they will complement one another and we’ll have to go forward as is.”



First F-22 Raptor, tail number 91-4001, undergoes testing at Edwards AFB in California

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/reviving-f-22-raptor-production-a-non-starter-421019/
 

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