"F-22 raptor " to India ?

[Nuvneet Kundu]

India should keep close relations with US and other allies in Asia until it gains strength vis-a-vis China.

If that were possible then I'd have no problems, but strategic relations are one way tunnels with no scope for U turns. Indira signed a deal with Soviets in 1970s and they cultivated so much domestic clout in our politics that we are still struggling to shake off Russian influence. Even last month they forced us to consider BMP 3 instead of indigenous Sarath, they are doing same to kill Arjun tanks to make us buy Armata. The US will do the same. Making strategic relations keeps us under foreign influence for long time. Take a look at what the US has done in a power nation like Japan. They have made military bases there and refuse to leave and any politician who dares to speak out, the US gives money to his rival and makes sure that politician never wins.

This embrace of a super power is like embracing a drug. It feels powerful temporarily but it kills in the long run. All these deals come with a lot of strings attached. The US could care less about the money they get from the deals, it's the influence and subversion value that they care about. In that sense a supposedly weaker domestic weapon is still better than a shiny foreign weapon. If we start making compromises after compromises then when are we going to stand up for our interests? we have already lost the ability to do a nuke test thanks for UN-Ind civil nuclear deal and Pak-China are doing test after test in N.Korea. Can we reverse that now? no. Pakistan is just a pawn, the US is our real enemy.

China's foray into Arunachal and Aksai is to be resisted but we can do that without the US meddling as well. There are certain places where it is in our interest to let China grow at the expense of US. For example in Nepal where UK and US have ELINT bases to spy on India. China has the balls to bust these posts, we should let them do that before we start any real counter-offensive against China in Nepal. Same with Chinese influence in South China Sea. esp Philippines. The missionaries there have been the single biggest source of radicalization and weapons supply to Christian terrorists of Indian N.East. Why is it in our interest to let the US keep doing that to us using Philippines as a proxy? Let China invade them and put US in a vulnerable situation.

 

[Srinivas_K]

If that were possible then I'd have no problems, but strategic relations are one way tunnels with no scope for U turns. Indira signed a deal with Soviets in 1970s and they cultivated so much domestic clout in our politics that we are still struggling to shake off Russian influence. Even last month they forced us to consider BMP 3 instead of indigenous Sarath, they are doing same to kill Arjun tanks to make us buy Armata. The US will do the same. Making strategic relations keeps us under foreign influence for long time. Take a look at what the US has done in a power nation like Japan. They have made military bases there and refuse to leave and any politician who dares to speak out, the US gives money to his rival and makes sure that politician never wins.

This embrace of a super power is like embracing a drug. It feels powerful temporarily but it kills in the long run. All these deals come with a lot of strings attached. The US could care less about the money they get from the deals, it's the influence and subversion value that they care about. In that sense a supposedly weaker domestic weapon is still better than a shiny foreign weapon. If we start making compromises after compromises then when are we going to stand up for our interests? we have already lost the ability to do a nuke test thanks for UN-Ind civil nuclear deal and Pak-China are doing test after test in N.Korea. Can we reverse that now? no. Pakistan is just a pawn, the US is our real enemy.

China's foray into Arunachal and Aksai is to be resisted but we can do that without the US meddling as well. There are certain places where it is in our interest to let China grow at the expense of US. For example in Nepal where UK and US have ELINT bases to spy on India. China has the balls to bust these posts, we should let them do that before we start any real counter-offensive against China in Nepal. Same with Chinese influence in South China Sea. esp Philippines. The missionaries there have been the single biggest source of radicalization and weapons supply to Christian terrorists of Indian N.East. Why is it in our interest to let the US keep doing that to us using Philippines as a proxy? Let China invade them and put US in a vulnerable situation.

The policy should be , co operate with US, Russia and China. Gain the strength and protect your strategic interests.
India's foreign policy engages will all nations and keeps its strategic interests in tact. US is one of them.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

Rafale was demanded by IAF when Modi said just use our indigenous aircrafts.

This ie exactly why I don't like the IAF. They keep making a lot of demands which are in contravention to nation policies, self-reliance being one of them.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

All I'm saying is that I didn't expect such strong lobbying for American weapons at least from in this forum. If unpaid, unbiased independent observers on internet forums can be so tilted in favor of the US then I can only imagine what kind of efforts the paid agents might be making to influence the decision making process.

No problem, buy F22, F35, F16, Nimitz class carriers, surrender Kashmir and N.East, also import Michelle Obama and make her the first lady of India because "Oh my gawwd, we have a threat from China, let's chop our right arm to defend our left leg". They are BOTH our enemies who are hurting us in different ways, is it too difficult to see?

 

[Kshatriya87]

This ie exactly why I don't like the IAF. They keep making a lot of demands which are in contravention to nation policies, self-reliance being one of them.

Why? Aircrafts are to be operated by them. Are they the better judge of fighters or are we?

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

Why? Aircrafts are to be operated by them. Are they the better judge of fighters or are we?

Sabh ne mann bana hi liya hai toh discussion karne me kya matlab hai, karo bhai jo karna hai karo. Army knows what's best for army, IAF knows what's best for IAF, government knows what's best for government, what's the point of having a discussion forum then? Ek kaam karte hai, sabh forum band karke chup chap kone mein baith jaate hain because everyone already knows what's best for them.

 

[Anupu]

India won't get F22 but it is possible for India to make an Indigenous fighter. Instead of asking DRDO to make it with HAL. Ask them to come up with a prototype, and also ask private companies to form consortiums (at least 2) and come up with their proto-types and let the IAF Squadron leaders and Flight Lt.s come up to these companies and tweak them. And then choose the best. It's exactly what they are doing in FICV.

 

[Kshatriya87]

Sabh ne mann bana hi liya hai toh discussion karne me kya matlab hai, karo bhai jo karna hai karo. Army knows what's best for army, IAF knows what's best for IAF, government knows what's best for government, what's the point of having a discussion forum then? Ek kaam karte hai, sabh forum band karke chup chap kone mein baith jaate hain because everyone already knows what's best for them.

I said IAF, not everyone. If the air force doesn't know what's good for them, what the hell are they doing there? Forum se suggestion lenge kya?

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

Forum is for discussions and debates. Not for official authorities to take decisions based on it. Sufficient number of exerts are there for that purpose. Besides, nothing beats experience.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

You are an senior forum member, I presume you also frequent other forums, are you not aware that there is a nexus between IAF and foreign weapons contractors? has the IAF not deliberately stalled our indigenous projects? There are so many experts who have written about it with evidence. One can wake up those who are sleeping, one cannot wake up those who are pretending to be asleep. If you ask AAPtard like questions then I have no answers to them.

"If the air force doesn't know what's good for them, what the hell are they doing there? Forum se suggestion lenge kya?"

Really?

Yo nigga @Sakal Gharelu Ustad @spikey360 look at the kind of proud Hindu nationalists your forum has produced. Itni subservience toh British Raj ke time pe bhi nahi thi

 

[Kshatriya87]

You are an senior forum member, I presume you also frequent other forums, are you not aware that there is a nexus between IAF and foreign weapons contractors? has the IAF not deliberately stalled our indigenous projects? There are so many experts who have written about it with evidence. One can wake up those who are sleeping, one cannot wake up those who are pretending to be asleep. If you ask AAPtard like questions then I have no answers to them.

"If the air force doesn't know what's good for them, what the hell are they doing there? Forum se suggestion lenge kya?"

Really?

Yo nigga @Sakal Gharelu Ustad look at the kind of proud Hindu nationalists your forum has produced. Itni subservience toh British Raj ke time pe bhi nahi thi

So just because someone tells you IAF has done it you believe it? What nonsense. If there is so much of so called evidence, why didn't the officials take any action?

And where the fuck did the hindu nationalist remark come from? Is IAF a hindu only organisation or something? Your comments in the last post are gravely stupid.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

So just because someone tells you IAF has done it you believe it? What nonsense. If there is so much of so called evidence, why didn't the officials take any action?

And where the fuck did the hindu nationalist remark come from? Is IAF a hindu only organisation or something? Your comments in the last post are gravely stupid.

It is not some stray dog that has told me some fairy tale. It is well documented, this the reason Avinash Chander was humiliated and fired, this was the reason the IAF was forced to buy Tejas, they were still refusing to buy this 'dirty Indian plane'.

Just because IAF tells you that we need to import foreign planes otherwise India will cease to exist, you believe it? are they sharing their commission with you?

 

[Anupu]

You are an senior forum member, I presume you also frequent other forums, are you not aware that there is a nexus between IAF and foreign weapons contractors? has the IAF not deliberately stalled our indigenous projects? There are so many experts who have written about it with evidence. One can wake up those who are sleeping, one cannot wake up those who are pretending to be asleep. If you ask AAPtard like questions then I have no answers to them.

"If the air force doesn't know what's good for them, what the hell are they doing there? Forum se suggestion lenge kya?"

Really?

Yo nigga @Sakal Gharelu Ustad @spikey360 look at the kind of proud Hindu nationalists your forum has produced. Itni subservience toh British Raj ke time pe bhi nahi thi

Read a book called chimera, and you will realize how important it is for IAF to maintain tech superiority.

 

[Kshatriya87]

It is not some stray dog that has told me some fairy tale. It is well documented, this the reason Avinash Chander was humiliated and fired, this was the reason the IAF was forced to buy Tejas, they were still refusing to buy this 'dirty Indian plane'.

Just because IAF tells you that we need to import foreign planes otherwise India will cease to exist, you believe it? are they sharing their commission with you?

When did they ever say "India will cease to exist"? Stop making up useless and stupid facts.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

When did they ever say "India will cease to exist"? Stop making up useless and stupid facts.

Do you know this story? When India became independent, Nehru said that the leader of the army must be a British because Indians don't have any experience in running an army that time someone said that we also lack experience in running a country so maybe our Prime Minister must be British. That time Nehru realized the extent of chutiyagiri in his thinking and finally allowed an Indian army chief. It's the same with people who recommend foreign planes for Indian needs. "They are better than anything we can make", toh le bhai, Obama ko Prime Minister bana le.

This IAF keeps making biased recommendations based on alarmist statements implicitly alluding that we will be defeated in a war if we don't have imported planes, that is context of saying that 'India will cease to exist if you don't buy whatever we tell you'. They keep saying that we will lose a two front war unless we buy whatever shiny imported plane that the IAF recommends, do they not? They do it because of commissions and people like you keep parroting their tunes. When asked for an objective explanation you resort to rhetoric to shut down the dissenting voice by using the Brahmastra called "they know more than you, they don't need your advice".

"They said it therefore it must be right" is a logical fallacy. Such blind faith has never led to any enlightened conclusions. IAF ki joothi kahaniyan sunte baithoge toh ye log domestic industry ka ek bhi project succeed hone nahi denge. Tejas ko maarne ki puri kosish ki inn logon ne. Foreign se commission lete hain aur desi product ko bad rating dete hain.

Ye saari baatein pehli baar sun rahe ho kya? everyone knows about IAF bias against Indian equipment. This is all petro dollars speaking. Brown skinned Angrez who call themselves nationalists are parrotting their lines, what can be more sad than this. Chalo unko toh fir bhi commission milta hai, tumko bhi thoda chai pani milta hai kya? Have some critical thinking, stop parroting IAF lines. They are trying to scare the nation into buying foreign equipment.

Even yesterday they asked for 1 Billion $, were they sleeping till now? or were they too busy doing chaploosi for foreign equipment that they forgot to secure our bases? This same thing made @Screambowl lose his temper yesterday. We need to ask difficult questions to these people, they are taking our emotional patriotism for granted.

 

[airtel]

@Navneet Kundu , if USA will not sell weapons to paki jehadees then china will sell or Russia or any European nation will sell , the mentality of pakistaan is " ghaans khayenge par bam banayenge " .................if USA will not give them money then their Islamic bosses like Qatar , UAE or Saudi Arabia will provide them ............

try to understand we are still a 3rd world country , without help of russia in 1971 we could never have divided pakistaan (which got support from USA, UK , LANKA & all the 56 jehadi countries )...........of course they hate our progress and in future they will treat us just like they are treating china now even now they are playing their games against India.

what do you expect ?? this is a war and they will do everything .

what are our other options ??

russia is selling weapons to china ( & now even pakistaan ) can we stop them ??

we also have friendship with Israel & Iran at the same time .............. what is that ??

USA government is controlled by big american companies , they dont care about their own citizens then why they will care about Indian ??

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

USA government is controlled by big american companies , they dont care about their own citizens then why they will care about Indian ??

I'm not expecting American companies to care about Indian interests, I am expecting Indian government to care about Indian interests. We can't stop anyone from selling to anyone but we can stop buying from them.

Other options ke baat chodo, first tell me whether we even considered any options in the first place? it seems to me that we took the first offer we got without even considering any other options. Now there was news that we are going to buy drones from the US. Kya karoge bhai drone leke? Covert strike toh kar nahi sakte, overt strike karne ki himmat hai?

This is siphoning off of Indian money to american companies, nothing else. Our artillery can reach most terrorist training camps in Pakistan, still we have never used that. Now they want billion dollar drones? Ever since BJP has come to power, it's only American businesses that have benefited.

 

[Kshatriya87]

Do you know this story? When India became independent, Nehru said that the leader of the army must be a British because Indians don't have any experience in running an army that time someone said that we also lack experience in running a country so maybe our Prime Minister must be British. That time Nehru realized the extent of chutiyagiri in his thinking and finally allowed an Indian army chief. It's the same with people who recommend foreign planes for Indian needs. "They are better than anything we can make", toh le bhai, Obama ko Prime Minister bana le.

Your argument starts with another irrational comparison. There is a difference between 1947 and 2016. We have more than 60 years of experience now.

Secondly, why do you think people make that comment? e.g. Name one indian aircraft which is better than all other western fighters. Can you? If we don't have an option, what do we do? Buy a western plane for our country's defense or keep arguing whether we should make a plane or not? It should be 4th gen or 5 th? Stealth or not? We don't even have a prototype to match that kind of fighter.

We can procure western fighters whilst developing our own.

Think practically.

 

[Krusty]

Do you know this story? When India became independent, Nehru said that the leader of the army must be a British because Indians don't have any experience in running an army that time someone said that we also lack experience in running a country so maybe our Prime Minister must be British. That time Nehru realized the extent of chutiyagiri in his thinking and finally allowed an Indian army chief. It's the same with people who recommend foreign planes for Indian needs. "They are better than anything we can make", toh le bhai, Obama ko Prime Minister bana le.

This IAF keeps making biased recommendations based on alarmist statements implicitly alluding that we will be defeated in a war if we don't have imported planes, that is context of saying that 'India will cease to exist if you don't buy whatever we tell you'. They keep saying that we will lose a two front war unless we buy whatever shiny imported plane that the IAF recommends, do they not? They do it because of commissions and people like you keep parroting their tunes. When asked for an objective explanation you resort to rhetoric to shut down the dissenting voice by using the Brahmastra called "they know more than you, they don't need your advice".

"They said it therefore it must be right" is a logical fallacy. Such blind faith has never led to any enlightened conclusions. IAF ki joothi kahaniyan sunte baithoge toh ye log domestic industry ka ek bhi project succeed hone nahi denge. Tejas ko maarne ki puri kosish ki inn logon ne. Foreign se commission lete hain aur desi product ko bad rating dete hain.

Ye saari baatein pehli baar sun rahe ho kya? everyone knows about IAF bias against Indian equipment. This is all petro dollars speaking. Brown skinned Angrez who call themselves nationalists are parrotting their lines, what can be more sad than this. Chalo unko toh fir bhi commission milta hai, tumko bhi thoda chai pani milta hai kya? Have some critical thinking, stop parroting IAF lines. They are trying to scare the nation into buying foreign equipment.

Even yesterday they asked for 1 Billion $, were they sleeping till now? or were they too busy doing chaploosi for foreign equipment that they forgot to secure our bases? This same thing made @Screambowl lose his temper yesterday. We need to ask difficult questions to these people, they are taking our emotional patriotism for granted.

+1

We can forget becoming a superpower as Long as we keep up this step motherly treatment towards our indigenous Defence industry. Just sending out RFPs every decade or so is a wrong strategy.

The hottest fire forges the strongest steel. since we always want to take the easy way out... Well you get the point

 

[Kshatriya87]

+1

We can forget becoming a superpower as Long as we keep up this step motherly treatment towards our indigenous Defence industry. Just sending out RFPs every decade or so is a wrong strategy.

The hottest fire forges the strongest steel. since we always want to take the easy way out... Well you get the point

Indigenous industry can only be given some attention if they develop an aircraft worthy of its purpose. They give something like Tejas and expect IAF to lead with it, it causes nothing but trouble for Indian defense. First produce something that is worthy of being inducted in IAF, then they will get proper revenue and India can think of becoming a superpower.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

Your argument starts with another irrational comparison. There is a difference between 1947 and 2016. We have more than 60 years of experience now.

Secondly, why do you think people make that comment? e.g. Name one indian aircraft which is better than all other western fighters. Can you? If we don't have an option, what do we do? Buy a western plane for our country's defense or keep arguing whether we should make a plane or not? It should be 4th gen or 5 th? Stealth or not? We don't even have a prototype to match that kind of fighter.

We can procure western fighters whilst developing our own.

Think practically.

Tell me one branch of Indian military that isn't making compromises with domestic products? Our soldiers uses the INSAS despite quality issues, many lay down their lives because of this faulty weapon. Still they never sit on a virtual dharna like the IAF does, they never blackmail the nation for top notch Scar 17 rifles, they make do with what is given without complaining because they understand that we have a budget and we need to live within our means. Our Navy has been at the forefront of all indigenization. When we bought 6 scorpene they felt so guilty that they made an alternative recommendation to the MOD to acquire ToT to produce domestically and vowed to never buy subs from a foreign vendor again. That is what integrity is all about. Once they buy a foreign product for lack of a domestic alternative, they AT LEAST try to learn the tech to avoid importing that type of tech again in the future.

Now, tell me, this IAF has been importing planes after planes from various foreign vendor, do they show an iota of guilt for not trying to collaborate with DRDO to build a domestic plane? Do they seem sad to you? on the contrary they proudly keep recommending foreign planes while making absolutely ZERO plans for indigenous production. They are spoiled brats who only want to fly imported planes, they don't give a shit about national mission to build domestically. What's the alternative you ask? well, what alternative did Army and Navy have? didn't they compromise? didn't they voluntarily LEARN the skills to make things indigenously? Is the IAF showing any such inclinations? look yourself in the mirror and ask yourself, do you think IAF is being honest or dishonest? If not forced, then these brats will NEVER adopt Indian technologies. It has never been on their priority list. @Krusty is right.

Name one Russian equipment that is better than American counterpart in the same category? none. Does that mean that they import American weapons? If the equipment lacks quality, they build it in more quantity to make up for it. Here is a good article about the whole 'expensive cutting edge weapons vs frugal ingenuity' debate that you and I are having right now. Read it, it will change your perspective.

What America Can Learn From Russia's Cheap But Deadly T90 Tank