F-18 Advanced Super Hornet

BON PLAN

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The F18 is also one of the cheapest TE MMRCAs, per unit and at operational costs. With the Block 3 upgrade, it certainly offers more future potential than the F16 and certainly should be the prefered political choice, if we want to make a US deal.
But the lack of flight performance and EW capabilities, would be a problem for IAF for sure.
From an industrial point of view, it would be better for India to have 2 different production lines and ToT inputs, to gain more benefits to improve the aviation industry.
1) There was so many fantasm about the rafale price, that now that its price is clear I'm not convinced that SH18 is cheaper. Maybe at the margin...
2) It's certain that SH18 has more potential than F16. F16 was a so nice fighter, but at the very end of its life. And as developped to be a daylight light fighter, its potential is over.
3) Industrial benefit to have 2 ToT : Yes on paper, but you'll have the choice between 100% of a certain amount of ToT or 2x50% of this (and probably the US will not give the same than french for exemple). Usefull to make a bench mark between two suppliers. Not so effective if you want a deep ToT (With 2 competitors, every one will be afraid to see its skill going to the other...).
4) And good luck to Boeing with HAL ! (a kind of ex CCCP dinosaur)
 

Wisemarko

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Boeing’s Next-Gen Super Hornet Will Be (Sort Of) Stealthy
Aviation Week & Space Technology
Lara Seligman
Mar 22, 2018


President Donald Trump was ridiculed on Twitter after pronouncing during a visit to Boeing’s St. Louis facility that the company’s new F/A-18 Super Hornet will be equipped with the “latest and the greatest stealth, and a lot of things on that plane that people don’t even know about.”

But it turns out Trump was on to something. Boeing is about to kick off an exhaustive effort to transition the U.S. Navy’s carrier air wing to the “Block III” Super Hornet, a next-generation version of the strike fighter complete with new sensors, extended range, a more powerful computer and, yes, enhanced stealth coating.

These changes will allow the Super Hornet to fly alongside the Lockheed Martin F-35C carrier variant as the backbone of the Navy’s carrier air wing into the 2040s and beyond, says Dan Gillian, Boeing F/A-18 and EA-18 program manager.

Block III Super Hornet will get enhanced stealth coating

New aircraft will begin rolling off the production line in 2020

Trump previewed the new and improved fighter during a March 14 visit to the St. Louis facility, which has been building F/A-18s, first the A-D Hornet and later the E/F Super Hornet, since 1978.

Gillian confirms that an improved low-observable (LO) coating will be one of five key characteristics of the Block III Super Hornet. The fighter is already “a very stealth airplane today”—he says, declining to elaborate—but there are new coatings engineers can apply on different surfaces of the aircraft to make it even more survivable, he says.

The F/A-18 was not designed specifically to be stealthy and lacks many of the fundamental stealth characteristics baked into Lockheed Martin’s F-35 and F-22 airframes. But there are other ways to enhance stealth, such as adding LO coating and radar-absorbent material improvements in certain locations on the airframe. A few simple changes “can buy us just a little bit of performance that’s low-cost and easy to go do,” Gillian says.

The souped-up aircraft the Navy has agreed to buy looks very different from Boeing’s original 2013 proposal for an “Advanced Super Hornet,” which focused on stealth. Boeing engineers found they needed to make design compromises to significantly reduce the aircraft’s radar cross section—for instance, by restricting payload, Gillian told Aviation Week in 2017 (AW&ST Feb. 20-March 5, 2017, p. 17).

This drove Boeing to drop certain features of the 2013 proposal, such as an enclosed weapons pod and internal infrared search-and-track (IRST) sensor, from the newest package.




The Navy will begin procuring the Block III Super Hornet in fiscal 2019 with a 24-aircraft buy. Credit: Boeing


The Navy will begin procuring the Block III Super Hornet in fiscal 2019 with a 24-aircraft buy, the first of which will come off the production line in 2020. Over the next five years, the Navy proposes buying 110 additional Super Hornets, including a three-year procurement, which is a significant boost from last year’s budget request. Meanwhile, the Navy will accelerate divestiture of the legacy Hornets, with the last active component squadron transitioning to the Super Hornet in 2018. The service plans to send the last F/A-18 A-D to the boneyard no later than the fiscal 2030 timeframe.

Boeing aims to deliver one Block III squadron per carrier air wing by 2024 and two squadrons of Block IIIs per carrier air wing by 2027, Gillian says.

Boeing will achieve this goal both by building new Super Hornets and by upgrading the older Block II aircraft to the Block III configuration i -depot. Boeing intends to start service life modification (SLM) work on the Block II aircraft in St. Louis in April.

The SLM’s initial focus will be extending airframe life to 9,000 hr. from 6,000, Gillian says. Later, SLM will incorporate efforts to make the aircraft more “maintainable”—for example, grooming wire, fixing corrosion and replacing ducts. Boeing is also working with the Navy on a “reset” of the Super Hornet’s environmental control system following a spike in hypoxia-like physiological episodes in the fleet.

SLM will expand to include the full Block II-to-Block III conversion in the early 2020s, Gillian says. This means LO improvements; an advanced cockpit system with a large-area display for improved user interface, a more powerful computer called the distributed targeting processor network, a bigger data pipe for passing information called Tactical Targeting Network Technology and conformal fuel tanks (CFT).

The CFTs will extend the range of the aircraft by 100-120 nm. They are designed to replace the extra fuel tanks the Super Hornet currently slings under its wings, reducing weight and drag and enabling additional payload.

Boeing in February received a potential $219.6 million order to design, develop, test and integrate the CFTs. This work will manifest both in the new-build aircraft that will roll off the line in 2020 and the aircraft being converted from Block II to Block III, Gillian says.

Finally, the Block III upgrade also will include a long-range IRST sensor that will allow the Super Hornet to detect and track advanced threats from a distance.

Gillian expects SLM work will take 18 months per aircraft at first, but he wants to drive that time down to 12 months.


Source: Aviationweek
 

Immanuel

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SH18 : 2 customers / Rafale : 4 customers.

Better road map? The production will ceased in a very few year, and after that all the budget will go to the stealthy big goose, so for the time being, the SH road map is mainly a powerpoint (seems that the powerpoint is the most powerfull tool imagined by the US fighter manufacturers...)

Lower costs? never proved. the SH is bigger, heavier, so unlikely to be cheaper.
Rafale orders: 276 (including France, Qatar, India & Egypt), delivered 164 French AF and few pairs to export customers

SH orders: Over 600 for USN, 40 for Kuwait, 36 for RAAF

You are comparing grapes to mangoes in terms of order book. Also The Super Hornet will probably have another 80+ orders from USN alone. Funny thing is France struggles to sell new modern fighters while Boeing still manages to peddle old reliable workhorses, why did Qatar still buy 36 F-15s in end 2017. Must be painful to see old workhorses outselling new hanger queens like the Rafale. Fact probably is that the F-15 is also cheaper to operate than the Rafale and already carries every known weapon in US arsenal.

On any given day, the SH program is far more mature one, it already has better AESA, with block 3 offers CFTs, Large panel displays, uprated engines, IRST etc. Also, it's upgrades are well funded, unlike the Rafale. Wasn't Dassault begging UAE to fund F3 types years ago.

Let's not dig deep into such fighters, you'll find the Rafale's success puny in comparison to the SH or heck even continued F-15 orders. SH in the USN is proven to be lowest cost TE fighter ever with operating cost per flight hr of around $10K which the Rafale can't match.

I can assure you, the Rafale line will close faster than any F-teen line the way sales are going for all of them. God forbid you don't get any more orders from India since that would kill Rafale, even EF has a better future.

The point being, no one can really compete with the US mil. complex and expect a strong fight from Boeing for the IN competition and also IAF if RFIs are sent.

While the dainty Rafale goes out on impressive flying display, people who are serious about their wars go buy American since they know deliveries are fast, weapons, choices are plenty and

I expect F-35, Block 3 SH to shut down EF and Rafale out completly by mid 2020s.
 

WiseMan

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Rafale orders: 276 (including France, Qatar, India & Egypt), delivered 164 French AF and few pairs to export customers

SH orders: Over 600 for USN, 40 for Kuwait, 36 for RAAF

You are comparing grapes to mangoes in terms of order book. Also The Super Hornet will probably have another 80+ orders from USN alone. Funny thing is France struggles to sell new modern fighters while Boeing still manages to peddle old reliable workhorses, why did Qatar still buy 36 F-15s in end 2017. Must be painful to see old workhorses outselling new hanger queens like the Rafale. Fact probably is that the F-15 is also cheaper to operate than the Rafale and already carries every known weapon in US arsenal.

On any given day, the SH program is far more mature one, it already has better AESA, with block 3 offers CFTs, Large panel displays, uprated engines, IRST etc. Also, it's upgrades are well funded, unlike the Rafale. Wasn't Dassault begging UAE to fund F3 types years ago.

Let's not dig deep into such fighters, you'll find the Rafale's success puny in comparison to the SH or heck even continued F-15 orders. SH in the USN is proven to be lowest cost TE fighter ever with operating cost per flight hr of around $10K which the Rafale can't match.

I can assure you, the Rafale line will close faster than any F-teen line the way sales are going for all of them. God forbid you don't get any more orders from India since that would kill Rafale, even EF has a better future.

The point being, no one can really compete with the US mil. complex and expect a strong fight from Boeing for the IN competition and also IAF if RFIs are sent.

While the dainty Rafale goes out on impressive flying display, people who are serious about their wars go buy American since they know deliveries are fast, weapons, choices are plenty and

I expect F-35, Block 3 SH to shut down EF and Rafale out completly by mid 2020s.
Also, to add to your point, Rafale is not able to use US/NATO weapons such as AMRAAM, JDAM, SDB, JSOW, HAARM, Paveway etc. which are much cheaper and proven options compared to very expensive European options like MICA, AASM, Meteor, Brimstone etc.
 

BON PLAN

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Rafale orders: 276 (including France, Qatar, India & Egypt), delivered 164 French AF and few pairs to export customers

SH orders: Over 600 for USN, 40 for Kuwait, 36 for RAAF
1) France is 6 time smaller than USA. 636+ / 276 = 2.3 => not so bad, really not so bad.
2) Rafale just began it's international career. 1st order in 2015. 96 planes in 3 years...
3) France ordered so far 180 planes. A last 5th batch of 45 will follow to respect the french air force format.
4) SH18 is at the end of its life. It only survive thanks to the F35 retard in the USN.
 

BON PLAN

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Funny thing is France struggles to sell new modern fighters while Boeing still manages to peddle old reliable workhorses, why did Qatar still buy 36 F-15s in end 2017. Must be painful to see old workhorses outselling new hanger queens like the Rafale. Fact probably is that the F-15 is also cheaper to operate than the Rafale and already carries every known weapon in US arsenal.
Qatar ordered french, european and US planes. They baught the diplomatic armor of US and GB.
F15 remain a nice fighter. As M2000 or F16.
F15 cheaper to operate? It's absolutely not a problem for the rich Qatar state. It's not an argument.
 

BON PLAN

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I can assure you, the Rafale line will close faster than any F-teen line the way sales are going for all of them. God forbid you don't get any more orders from India since that would kill Rafale, even EF has a better future.
:hippo:
You are desesperatly so funny.
 

BON PLAN

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no one can really compete with the US mil. complex and expect a strong fight from Boeing for the IN competition and also IAF if RFIs are sent.
It's the case of the french aerospace, until 1950.
A rand report of the 1960th explain that they didn't understand why the french fighters were the sole of the world to compete with US ones, despite the tact that Dassault was a so small company....
And it's always the case.
 

BON PLAN

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I expect F-35, Block 3 SH to shut down EF and Rafale out completly by mid 2020s.
No one cares of what you expect. You show post after post you lack of knowledge.
the ravages of the basic french bashing...
 

BON PLAN

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Rafale orders: 276 (including France, Qatar, India & Egypt), delivered 164 French AF and few pairs to export customers

SH orders: Over 600 for USN, 40 for Kuwait, 36 for RAAF

You are comparing grapes to mangoes in terms of order book. Also The Super Hornet will probably have another 80+ orders from USN alone. Funny thing is France struggles to sell new modern fighters while Boeing still manages to peddle old reliable workhorses, why did Qatar still buy 36 F-15s in end 2017. Must be painful to see old workhorses outselling new hanger queens like the Rafale. Fact probably is that the F-15 is also cheaper to operate than the Rafale and already carries every known weapon in US arsenal.

On any given day, the SH program is far more mature one, it already has better AESA, with block 3 offers CFTs, Large panel displays, uprated engines, IRST etc. Also, it's upgrades are well funded, unlike the Rafale. Wasn't Dassault begging UAE to fund F3 types years ago.

Let's not dig deep into such fighters, you'll find the Rafale's success puny in comparison to the SH or heck even continued F-15 orders. SH in the USN is proven to be lowest cost TE fighter ever with operating cost per flight hr of around $10K which the Rafale can't match.

I can assure you, the Rafale line will close faster than any F-teen line the way sales are going for all of them. God forbid you don't get any more orders from India since that would kill Rafale, even EF has a better future.

The point being, no one can really compete with the US mil. complex and expect a strong fight from Boeing for the IN competition and also IAF if RFIs are sent.

While the dainty Rafale goes out on impressive flying display, people who are serious about their wars go buy American since they know deliveries are fast, weapons, choices are plenty and

I expect F-35, Block 3 SH to shut down EF and Rafale out completly by mid 2020s.
SO IN A SINGLE ANSWER :
:bs:
 

BON PLAN

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Rafale is not able to use US/NATO weapons such as AMRAAM, JDAM, SDB, JSOW, HAARM, Paveway
incredible......

Watch that pics :





Ohhhh.... the nice US LGB bombs....


About AMRAAM and AIM9 :
1) France decided to produce its own AAM, not to depend on USA for export licence.
2) When you see the poor pk of AMRAAM, you can expect it's not too costly.
3) Last AIM9X, the latest IR missile of the US arsenal, failed against a old syrian Su22 .....
 

Immanuel

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1) France is 6 time smaller than USA. 636+ / 276 = 2.3 => not so bad, really not so bad.
2) Rafale just began it's international career. 1st order in 2015. 96 planes in 3 years...
3) France ordered so far 180 planes. A last 5th batch of 45 will follow to respect the french air force format.
4) SH18 is at the end of its life. It only survive thanks to the F35 retard in the USN.
Well, Rafale has been available for export since well before 2008, no body bought it for so long, UAE didn't buy it because it was going to have to fund F-3. With F-35 rolling up, EF and Rafale's carrer is over mid 2025s. France is also about 6 times shitier than the US.

F-18 Block 3 has a better AESA than the Rafale, better Datalinks, CFT's, better cockpit, LO weapons pods, IRST, TTNT. Some of the best availability for any aircraft including perhaps the most reliable engine ever on a fighter. The same engine that powers the LCA MK-2 (huge advantage). It also has the lowest operational costs for any TE fighter.

It comes readily able to deploy perhaps the widest range of weapons ever integrated on a fighter.
 

BON PLAN

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Kuwait has ordered 40 SH, seems like you are sleeping
24 janv. 2018 - Dubai: Kuwait has informed the US that it plans to go ahead with the purchase of 40 F/A-18E/F Super Hornets, a Kuwaiti daily reported on Wednesday. Specialised military committees will follow up on the details of the purchase of the fighter jets, and their maintenance, training and spare parts.

=> NOT ORDERED YET.
Waiting the first bank wire.... And it can be so long....
 

BON PLAN

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Well, Rafale has been available for export since well before 2008, no body bought it for so long, UAE didn't buy it because it was going to have to fund F-3. With F-35 rolling up, EF and Rafale's carrer is over mid 2025s. France is also about 6 times shitier than the US.

F-18 Block 3 has a better AESA than the Rafale, better Datalinks, CFT's, better cockpit, LO weapons pods, IRST, TTNT. Some of the best availability for any aircraft including perhaps the most reliable engine ever on a fighter. The same engine that powers the LCA MK-2 (huge advantage). It also has the lowest operational costs for any TE fighter.

It comes readily able to deploy perhaps the widest range of weapons ever integrated on a fighter.
Rafale C was available for export since its first flight.
See F35 : it was even sold before !
See how lucky are the Dutch having baught an affordable, agile and supercruising powerpoint F35 : 85 on the agenda. With the same budget they will finally have 37 stealthy big goose :crying:


UAE : you don't know your best ennemy history :
UAE choose not to purchase Rafale in 2011. Rafale F3 was already released in mid 2008. :doh:

Just to give you a cultural varnish about rafale :

Previous Rafale standards contents
  • LF1 standard (2000/05/01)
    • R550 Magic 2
  • F1 standard (2001/12/01)
    • 30M791 gun A2A modes
    • Mica EM
    • SPECTRA
  • F2.1 standard (2005/12/01)
    • Hadrware update
    • MDPU
    • MIDS-Link16
    • Upgraded SPECTRA
    • OSF
    • Sensor fusion
    • SCALP
    • MICA-IR
  • F2.2 standard (01/06/2006)
    • SBU-38
    • Upgraded SPECTRA
    • Obsolescences updates
  • F3.0 standard (01/07/2008)
    • Hardware update
    • Long range MICA-IR modes
    • High resolution Radar MAP
    • Upgraded IFF
    • SLPRM V4-2
  • F3.1 standard (2009/06/01)
    • Common F3 software for retrofited F2 and F3-O aircrafts
  • F3.2 standard (2010/03/01)
    • Full LGB capability
    • Damocles-MP
    • GBU-12/22
    • SBU-64
    • 30M791 gun A2G modes
    • AM39 block 2 mod 2
    • ASMP-A
    • AREOS recce pod
  • F3.3 standard (2012/01/01)
    • MIDS-Link16 upgrade
    • RBE-2 AESA
    • OSF-IT
    • DDM-NG
    • New MFD
    • Improved HUD transparancy
    • Upgraded IFF
  • F3.3' standard (2013/05/01)
    • GBU-24
    • AESA antenna compatibility with tranche 1, 2, 3 aircrafts
  • F3.4+ standard (2014/12/01)
    • MGRS format GPS data input
    • Updated HUD safety symbology and warning
    • New take off abortion warning (max brake energy capability)
    • Real time ground following mode switch (radar-digital mapping)
  • F3R standard (2018/10/01)
    • Meteor
    • Talios LDP
    • AGCAS
    • IFF mode 5/S
    • Link 16 upgrade
    • RBE-2 PESA upgrade
    • SPECTRA upgrade
    • AREOS pod upgrade
    • Full SBU-54 integration
    • AASM fuse programmation upgrade
    • GBU-16 integration
    • NARANG refueling pod


The SH18 block3 is so nice that its line will shut down in a few years.
Better AESA : just bigger antenna. But the plane is bigger ans less stealthy....
Better datalinks? prove it.
Better CFT ? : Rafale don't need it. It's lighter than SH but has longer legs without and better load capacity.
Better cockpit? : prove it.
LO weapons pod : only mock up for the moment. If you want Dassault can make the same in wood + polystyrene :lol:.
Better IRST ? : prove it. An IRST in the center external tanks ! what an idea....
Most reliable engine : why not.
Same engine than LCA. Probably not for a long time. Kaveri will reborn.
Lowest cost operations ? : prove it. Beeing heavier I have a doubt....
able to deploy perhaps the widest range of weapons ever integrated on a fighter : probably.
 

Sancho

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I'm not convinced that SH18 is cheaper.
Of course you are not convinced, because you prefer to ignore facts (US government flyaway costs of F18 and Indian government flyaway costs for Rafale), but 20 the 30 million less per fighter in flyaway condition is a big point and when you add the lower operational costs, which were confirmed in the Brazilian evaluation as well, there is no denying (for non biased people), that the F18 is the clearly more cost-effective choice, of the twin seat MMRCAs and costs will play a more important role now, than it did under the former government and the MMRCA tender.

2) It's certain that SH18 has more potential than F16.
True, which is why it's crucial that IN goes for F18s, as a give away to the US to get EMALS, E-2D, S70 licence production, or drones...
...while the IAF should get a European MMRCA in larger numbers and more industrial and technical benefits.

The F16 is a dead end for IAF and all it offers, is the F35 in the long term, but I still think, the US government will provide it with the naval deals too.

3) Industrial benefit to have 2 ToT : Yes on paper, but you'll have the choice between 100% of a certain amount of ToT or 2x50% of this (and probably the US will not give the same than french for exemple).
No country gives 100% of the whole fighter, that's just a myth, so getting 2 x 50% would still be more beneficial for India and we have seen the reluctance of Dassault on ToT as well.

4) And good luck to Boeing with HAL !
The most funny thing would be, if HAL selects RBE 2 AESA for LCA MK1A, then they will produce Kaveri with Safran core, as well as Thales radar and EW parts without a Rafale production line. :biggrin2:
 

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