Expansion: The Call of the Hour for Indian Army

Discussion in 'Indian Army' started by AVERAGE INDIAN, Sep 14, 2014.

  1. AVERAGE INDIAN

    AVERAGE INDIAN EXORCIST Senior Member

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    India is the largest importer of arms in the world and is also the world’s fourth-largest military. India is among the countries that boast of a large defence budget and the Indian army is a force to reckon with; yet there seems to be a dire need for a stronger army.

    India is the largest importer of arms in the world and is also the world’s fourth-largest military. India is among the countries that boast of a large defence budget and the Indian army is a force to reckon with; yet there seems to be a dire need for a stronger army. Times have changed and with possible situations of war among other things, new India needs a stronger army, that can take on any threat – foreign or indigenous. The army is in dire need of an overhaul and modernization.

    Expansion for the army needs to happen in two aspects, first is to expand the Army internally by revamping and modernizing it and secondly by expanding its presence across the world.

    In the first avenue, the Indian Army seems to be in a critical condition, Reports indicate that we do not have the firepower to wage a battle for longer than 20 days and the Army urgently needs new field artillery. The Indian Air Force has repeatedly voiced concerns about the obsolete nature of its ground-based air defence systems. The Indian Navy’s depleting and aging submarine fleet poses its own set of challenges with only 13 conventional diesel-electric submarines. With all these difficulties India understands the importance of expansion and a total revamp.

    Currently around 2 per cent of GDP is being allocated to defence, an amount that is drastically lesser than some of its volatile neighbors. For example China announced its military budget for 2014 at a figure of $132 billion, knowing the reticency of China the real figure may be even 40 per cent higher. In comparison India’s defence budget though higher than the last governments budget was set by finance Minister Arun Jaitley at 2.29 trillion Indian rupees or $38.35 billion for 2014-15. Though much lower than China’s this budget allocation seems to be a concrete step towards the plan of expanding the Indian Army.

    Two countries with the world’s largest and second largest population are touted to be the next superpowers in the world. India and China are competing against western countries as well as each other. While China as mentioned above has military capabilities that are unknown and possibly much higher than what is being shown, as the next superpower China has managed to establish and make its presence felt globally, with troops positioned strategically around the world in countries from Europe to Pakistan, the Chinese army is one army that even the giants of the west are afraid to clash with fearing its unknown fire power.

    India alongside procurement and training also needs to make its military presence felt globally. With territorial disputes with its neighboring countries like Pakistan and China, and internal insurgencies as well the Indian army needs to be capable of dealing with unforeseen situations.

    In order for India to meet future threats and challenges, forging military relationships with other countries, and creating military bases around the world strategically should be an integral aspect of India, which requires undertaking and creating force structures for joint operations around the world. America has bases all over the world in over 170 countries and is undoubtedly the strongest military presence in the global scene. China too has positioned itself strategically and in case of war would be able to attack efficiently. India currently has only one military base outside of India, Farkhor in Tajikistan. We need to amp our presence starting in South Asia and then globally.

    Indian Prime Minister Narender Modi visit to Japan was in many ways a landmark trip and it marked the beginning of India maintaining its sphere of control in Asia. India and Japan sought to boost defence ties, they agreed to look into upgrading a ‘two-plus-two’ format for security talks by bringing together their foreign and defence ministers, and directed officials to launch working level talks on defence equipment and technology cooperation. In Asia another powerful supplier of arms is South Korea, and as allies India and South Korea have always been on friendly terms. India, a major importer of arms and military hardware purchased eight warships from South Korea.

    It is a very strategic move for India to make its presence felt in countries that could help in countering the influence of other regional powers in South Asia. In the long run maintaining a good military relationship with such countries is beneficial to India.

    Outside Asia, India has been very efficient in setting up military facilities abroad, countering piracy by patrolling the Indian Ocean and protecting the crucial sea lanes of communication. Traditionally the Middle East and India have always had excellent relations, with a large number of Indians present in these countries. Qatar and India have harbored excellent relations and have signed agreements that enable India to have a solid access to the Middle East. The defence pact between the two countries is also a historic pact where they have jointly agreed that if need arises they will jointly produce weapons and artillery. India has vowed to protect Qatar from external threats. This resource rich country also is of strategic importance for India. What India needs now is an army that can expand across the globe and work with other countries to build a solid army with excellent resources and training. The potential of the Indian army is immense and as the next superpower, India has to position itself strategically and utilize the armed forces.

    Expansion: The Call of the Hour for Indian Army | New Delhi Times
     
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  3. sgarg

    sgarg Senior Member Senior Member

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    The military budget must be seen as a % of government revenue rather than a % of GDP.

    The government has many responsibilities. Every component needs money.

    India also spends considerable amounts on maintaining para-military and police forces. The total number of men under arms in India exceeds 3.5 million. This is not a small number.

    The para-military forces must be added to the defence budget to arrive at correct figure as BSF, CRPF, etc. have jobs to ensure national security.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2014
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  4. sgarg

    sgarg Senior Member Senior Member

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    Over-militarization of the country is not desirable. What is needed is to increase available manpower for military use through basic military training. India should train 2-3 million young men and women annually in basic military training so that it has a pool of people available if needed. Unfortunately NCC is not as successful as it should. This area needs attention.
     
  5. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Manpower increase has to done with the introduction of new weapons that were not in the inventory before.

    For instance, a lot of new weapons have been introduced and they are manned on the principle of 'Rob Peter to Pay Paul' i.e. adjust within the manpower authorised. Now, that reduces efficiency since the person assigned, based on wars fought and organisations having faced the test of time, are juggled to keep the manpower ceiling intact.

    What is important is cutting down the 'tail' i.e. the combat service support elements. Eg Base Workshops where there are personnel in uniform doing tasks that civilians can do, or the various Ordnance Depots in the rear. These can be manned by civilians with some military supervision for the sake of command and security,

    Many have written papers on this and submitted it to the Govt. I remember, Gen Kishen Pal (then a Brig) had submitted one and he discussed it with me en passant.

    But then.......
     
  6. bengalraider

    bengalraider DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

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    As Ray sir has written above i too am of the view that there is no dearth of manpower in the IA however that being said there is a shortage of fighting manpower curiously much like the old British forces on which the IA is modeled it is saddled with far too many drivers, cooks, orderlies, and office staff that do little actual fighting work. what is required is a rationalization of manpower with offices being mordenised and the manpower from there being allocated to fighting units similarly much of the rear logistical train can simply be outsourced to companies like group4 and SIS that have a substantial records in maintaining the security and integrity of their clients.
    Also the war fighting ability of the actual fighting corps can be multiplies manifold by simply upgrading equipment, much of our infantry fights with what is essentially cold war era equipment , we need to upgrade the same to the level enjoyed by infantrymen fighting for NATO armies ASAP. also for example a battery of 155/52 SPG howitzers is at least three times as capable as a Battery of fixed/towed guns by virtue of being able to move relatively long distances in a short time and hence cover that much more area.
     
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  7. JBH22

    JBH22 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Modernise the damn army. (with adequate mechanised infantry and rapid reaction force)

    Get them follow indigenous route (use Navy methodology)

    Get Rid of bureaucrats in the procurement process.

    Get a defence minister with adequate knowledge (perhaps Retired General might help)

    Shun Gandhian/Nehruvian crap.

    Let the political class know that both economic and military clout matter in this damn world.
     
  8. jus

    jus Senior Member Senior Member

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    I agree there is always a room for Modernizing&revamping.
    presence across the world......Look at Map more than 60% Humanity depend on Indian ocean for their trade &communication.IOR surrounded by small&failed states,with resource rich regions like Africa&ME.If we(India) successful in controlling IOR by default we projecting our power in 60% Humanity.Means we don't need to go anywhere to Project our Power,Just make Indian Ocean is India's Ocean :thumb:

    From 18th century onwards WHO RULED THE SEA RULED THE WORLD


    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2014
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  9. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    What percentage of population of the country is in the Army ?
    Are the Paramiltary Forces capable of undertaking military duties in India ? ( Training, equipment. leadership and organisation etc to be factored - how can a dunda wielding CRPF man undertake military task)
    What percentage of the population is under Arms in the neighbouring countries of India ?
    What percentage of the population is under Arms in countries which can potentially threaten us or aid our aggressors ?
    What is the quality of the military potential of those numbers and how do those compare to India ?

    What is expenditure being incurred per soldier in all these countries. And how the comparison with India?

    The degree of threat being faced in comparison of India ?

    Take the following Countries :

    India's neighbours _ China, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Myanmar, Bhutan, Nepal, Indonesia, Srilanka, Maldives etc.
    Take Potential Threats - USA, UK, France, Russia, Afghanistan, Turky, Iran, Saudi Arabia etc...

    Only then express your opinions rather than arguing citing other responsibilities etc etc !! These must be based on some hard realities.
     
  10. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    Most of the Arguments are valid except for a few things :

    The West have adopted these measures to save manpower to be tasked for actual combat jobs - they have shortage of manpower for real combat. One of the reasons for engaging mercenaries in large numbers.
    Outsourcing of logistics jobs to contractors as done by USA in Iraq and Afghanistan has its pitfalls.
    Outsourcing can be done globally with global manpower to save on your manpower not necessarily the money.
    Outsorcing indigenously would depend on technical and other skill standards of civil society.

    Terrain. infracture and trade facilities would also be a major factor in exploiting the civil trade.

    Answer following :


    What infrastructure and commercial facilities exist in Ladakh to supply rations to troops, repair the vehicles, maintain airfields, roads and bridges ?

    What infrastructures exist in Arunachal Pradesh, Nagaland, Mizoram, or Tripura to undertake logistics jobs of IA at such a vast and massive scales. Do not compare Indian Army with PMF where the scales are very low.

    Outsourcing necessarily does not result in cost cutting. It may many a times increase the cost - for example taking a labour through a contactor is costlier than taking him directly.

    So what is the real issue involved here - Manpower under uniform ? Well we have no dearth of manpower ?
    Cost of logistics _ outsourcing may be more costly under Indian conditions. Many areas would not support outsourcing.

    Second real issue is effectiveness of the fighting soldier - after all everyone else exists for him. Is outsourcing going to increase the fighting capabilities of combat soldiers? One may only be able to increase numbers of Combat soldiers but what about quality of support ?

    Indian Army is not an expeditionary force meant to fight in the streets of London by exploding its infrastructure. It essentially is a continental Army meant to be employed on our borders or across our borders. If civilian infrastructure there can support Army, well go ahead and disband logistics units but if not do not throw axe on your feet.

    One can not be simply "Johnny's Head in Air" and write papers.

    First develop civilian infrastructures and technical skills and resources of the border areas and then talk of logistics support being provided by civilians.

    Unfortunately our border areas remain almost the same as British left them.. what is there except for some lonely roads which reamin disrupted most of the time in the year.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2014
  11. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    These dreams can only be enjoyed by countries whose vast land borders are demarcated, internationally recognised and safe.

    No wonder China wants India to be tied down on land borders.

    And do you have any Choice ?
     
  12. jus

    jus Senior Member Senior Member

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    Something new for me,Is India's borders are not demarcated,internationally recognized and safe.

    China version is:India wants China to be tied down on land borders.... that is why it starts cozy relations with Jpn&Skorea,Vietnam,Phi&Asean (with US backing)

    Yes we (Ind-chi) are competitors both play games. I don't have any problem with (or scare) competition,they make move and we make counter move.Time will decide who is Winner or who is Loser.But both countries are mature enough so i guess both will be winners
     
  13. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    Modernise - yes but not by Mechanised Infantry which has role for only 1/10 of the border and incapable of dismounted tasks. Provide Infantry rotary capabilities. Make them lighter but more lethal. They should be able deliver superior fire power on the target. Make their training much more broader so they are capable of controlling all their support means - aircrafts to tanks to artillery to UAV. Make them computer and communication savvy. Make them the battle winners under all condition and in all terrain including under Nuclear conditions.

    You mean unders D O D O so that they wait for INSAS for thirty years !!

    And give it to whom ? The generals ?? Why open another door for them to be more corrupt ?

    A basic school teacher such as Mulayam, a catholic priest union leader like Antony or an arrogant rebel Unions leader like Fernades is considred suffienet. The IAS bureaucrats are only comfortable with such people. In a democracy, political weight has more value than your head.

    I can not make out anything out of that unless you mean to suggest that teen murti bhavan be vacated !!

    What is the political class in India ? Does it have a class unless you mean that class which squats over Delhi Bungalows, who threaten to cut of water and electricity of Delhi, who are caste and religion leaders. (Ajit Singh- Chaudhary Yudhvir Singh)

    Most of them belong to the class who have been trampled by all invaders over thousands of years, who have been looted , raped and massacred in all ages of Indian history - who have no shame, no honour, no sacrifice no sense and no purpose except to remain alive and in power by hook and crook. They have no idea of nation society of state. They have nothing to loose but every thing to gain. Their present state is a dream for them and they do not know what to make of that dream except ravaging in AC1 compartment by their security policemen who will throw you out if you happen to be in that compartment. That is their aim and dream. You expect them to be Defence Minister ? Bharat Bhagya Vidhatas !!
     
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  14. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Air and land mobility with quick response for reserve management to change the combat ratio is the call of the hour.

    Both in Strategic and Tactical terms.
     
  15. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    That should not be news to you.
    Check on the details of Indian borders ?
     
  16. JBH22

    JBH22 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Modernise means give them what will suit their requirement.


    I mean follow Indian navy route with has varying degrees of indigenous components on its platform.
    INSAS can still be upgraded why not hire a foreign firm to act as consultant to weed out the "defect". Something like British did for SA-80


    atleast these guys will get the hardware. The great thing with bureaucracy is that they lose files. Try lose 1 file at your job and see what your superiors do to you.


    Then we should shed any iota of desire to become a power. We only have raj babbar cartoon type to head defence policy matters :)


    I just mean become more assertive. let not maldives show u middle finger


    Those who rule us. A basic notion of national security might help but then they are like termites eating us from within.
     
  17. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Wrong, Mech forces have their role as well as rotary capabilities, both of these need to be evolve as per our needs in our terrain not by studying others and copy ..

    I still have my hands on INSAS, So don`t make absurd comments ..

    There is indeed need for an Army of Ex-service men in Political world of this country ..

    ================

    About PLA`s light mech forces >>

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    They are doing a far better job about mordanising by out thinking us ..

     
  18. rock127

    rock127 Maulana Rockullah Senior Member

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    Just compare the 2 biggest PROVEN threats India has ie. China and Pakistan.

    Talking of Standing Army China and India has same population but China's Army is double. Pakistan is 1/8 of Indian in population but still has 1/2 of Indian Army.

    Basically India is having a minimal deterrence force and spends hardly 2.5% whereas China and Pakistan spends double the amount they admit ie. 2%, 3%.

    India desperately needs modernized active force with 2 Million reserve troops ie. basically a 3+ Million Army with special emphasis on Navy and Airforce.
     
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  19. bengalraider

    bengalraider DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

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    @Bhadra- Valid points regarding the necessity of inbuilt logistics where where the frontier regions are concerned, however much of our army remains deployed in the rear with units being rotated to the front on a regular basis we still can and should rationalize the manpower being utilized against logistics and support functions in places such as Delhi, Bhopal,Kolkata, Ambala etc
    as far as increasing the effectiveness of the fighting soldier is concerned i too have pointed out the paucity of modern equipment among the mass of the infantry as well as the sever shortage of modern artillery, the expansion of the armed forces can wait we do not need to add more zeroes to the already bloated salary bill of the military what we need to add is the modernization budget only when the existing forces are equipped to comparable standards vis a vis the germans or the yanks should we look at enlarging the size of the forces if needed(please note that when i say equipped i mean the whole she-bang , guns, vehicles, communications, sensors and infrastructure)
     
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  20. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    Peoople at Delhi, Bhopal,Kolkata, Ambala etc are meant to be employed on borders hence they require standing logistics elements.

    What could be a better model for India is creation of "Theatre Logistics" in the border areas but India has other peculiar problems too.

    Flood in Kashmir, in Uttrakhand, in Bihar, Assam or aid to civil authorities require the Army Formations in the hinterland also to remain fully equipped and be prepared logistically .... imagine if there was only running ration at Srinagar .. that would have been a major crisis for the government. Otherwise there is no requirement of Bridging units being locate at or around Delhi.
     
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  21. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    Mind your language !!
     

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