Exclusive: Made in India rifles to replace INSAS

Discussion in 'Indian Army' started by Shaitan, Jul 5, 2015.

  1. Shaitan

    Shaitan Zandu balm all day Senior Member

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    http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...o-dalbir-singh-indian-army-arde/1/449238.html

    The Indian Army has decided to go for an indigenous assault rifle to replace the problematic INSAS rifles. The decision that could save thousands of crores in foreign exchange and boost local manufacture was taken recently by Army Chief General Dalbir Singh. The Army then cancelled a problematic Rs 4,848 crore order for importing Multi Caliber Assault Rifles on June 15-first reported by Mail Today on July 1.

    "We are going in for a designed and Made in India rifle in keeping with the government's indigenisation thrusts," senior Army sources told Mail Today.

    New features

    The Excalibur is an improved version of the INSAS rifle and fires 5.56x45 mm ammunition. It has full-automatic capability over the INSAS which can only fire a three-round burst. The Excalibur barrel is shorter by 4 mm, has a side folding butt stock and features a Picatinny rail, a universal mount that allows a range of weapon sights and sensors to be fitted on the rifle.

    DRDO officials say it will take the OFB's Rifle Factory Ishapore at least eight months to incorporate design changes suggested by the ARDE and field the first prototypes of what they are calling the 'Modified INSAS Rifle' (MIR). Changes suggested after trials include a smaller handguard and improved polycarbonate magazine.

    If the Excalibur/MIR clears trials, it could be in the hands of infantry soldiers within two years, DRDO officials say. The DRDO is designing a second version of the Excalibur, the AR-2 that fires 7.62x39 mm rounds used by AK-47. The AR-2 will be offered as an alternative to the Russianorigin assault rifle.

    The Army's 2011 tender was for a Multi Caliber Assault Rifle or for a weapon that could fire INSAS and AK-47 ammunition with a barrel change.

    Five international firms - Beretta of Italy, Israeli Weapons Industries (IWI), Colt Defense of the US, Ceska Zbplojovka of Czech Republic and SiG Sauer of Switzerland-were shortlisted for the trials.

    However, Army officials now admit the specifications were poorly drafted and unrealistic.

    http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...o-dalbir-singh-indian-army-arde/1/449238.html
     
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  3. akshay m

    akshay m Regular Member

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    Army zeroes in on Made in India rifles to replace INSAS
    The performance of the DRDO-designed 'Excalibur' assault rifle in trials last month at the Armament Research and Development Establishment in Pune has further enthused the Army.

    [​IMG]
     
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  4. blueblood

    blueblood Senior Member Senior Member

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    So MCIWS is dead? @Shaitan

    ................................
     
  5. Shaitan

    Shaitan Zandu balm all day Senior Member

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    I dont think so. I view this is as a further block of INSAS getting production till MCIWS is ready.
     
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  6. bengalraider

    bengalraider DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

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    Well I'm glad they chose an Indian rifle, tells you a lot about the " make in India" alignment of the new MOD.MICWS can come in later tranches and later mordenizations.
     
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  7. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    Good to know that after all the phoren maal have failed trials in Indian conditions, an indigenous weapon has "enthused" the army. The import lobby will not be pleased, but I am pleased. The above report also proves that DRDO has been continuously improving its products, contrary to many false allegations that are being routinely leveled by some self styled "experts."

    N.B.: MIR = Modified INSAS Rifle, also dubbed "Excalibur"

    A few technicalities:
    • The INSAS can fire fully automatic. INSAS comes in two versions: (1) semi-auto-cum-3-round-burst, and (2) semi-auto-cum-3-round-burst-cum-fully-automatic.
    • The INSAS round is very powerful due to which it has a flatter trajectory (refer to comments by Gen. V. K. Singh), therefore, a fully automatic option might not be a great idea, as was proven by the semi-auto FN-FAL versus fully-auto FN-FAL in the British-Argentinian War in the Falklands.
    I also respect the fact that the army has acknowledged its unrealistic specifications. We all are humans, and we all make mistakes. No one loses respect by acknowledging their mistakes. When mistakes are stubbornly defended, then it is the credibility of that defender that becomes questionable. The easiest thing is to speak the truth.

    P.S.: The picture in the post above was scanned by your's truly from RFI calendar several years back.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2015
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  8. blueblood

    blueblood Senior Member Senior Member

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    You mean interim production of Excaliber till MCIWS gets the clearance. Is it worth it or its just army trying to save face.
     
  9. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    What I think is, and I could be wrong, that MCIWS is not dead, but will be issued to specific troops, while Excalibur/MIR will be issued to regular troops. My reasons are:
    • On close inspection, it is evident that MCIWS is made of cast metal which is machined with higher refinement, and thus, the production process is going to be slow, and also very expensive. Having a multi-calibre capability, it will be mechanically more complicated.
    • The INSAS modification (MIR/Excalibur) would still retain a lot of stamped metal parts, which will not only keep the production costs down, but also make the production faster.
     
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  10. avknight1408

    avknight1408 Regular Member

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    Where are the General bashers? Lets hope MCIWS clears the trials.
     
  11. blueblood

    blueblood Senior Member Senior Member

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    With the kind of money allotted by the army, I don't think that this was ever an issue.

    Also moving the production from OFB to private sector is a sure fire way to increase the production and quality control.

    I seriously hope that Sandeep is wrong this time because I had high hopes for a multi cal system that will reduce the logistical footprint.
     
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  12. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    Money might not be a problem, but production speed is.

    The private sector is already involved in defence production with larger systems, however, I don't know whether the MoD will trust the private sector with small arms production, because, there is always a risk of pilferage. We have had plenty of cases where explosives meant for the mining industries have been sold off (due to corruption) which ended up in the hands of Maoists, who then used these explosives to blow up our CRPF convoys.
     
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  13. avknight1408

    avknight1408 Regular Member

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    OFB is a trap. OFB will resist any reform. Heck, it cant even be corporatized. The trade unions will block it. OFB is a governmental organisation. They have a civil service called Indian ordinance factory service. They are actually civil servants. MoD has no way but to stick with OFB eventhough it uses British era technique of making weapons. So now if Private companies start eating into OFB marketshare , the OFB will become one big white elephant. Our labour laws are so crazy that eventhough they have no contracts the govt cant close down state owned enterprises. There are many PSUs which are sitting idle for many decades yet their employees have all privilages.
     
  14. blueblood

    blueblood Senior Member Senior Member

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    Last edited: Jul 5, 2015
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  15. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    • When India wanted to upgrade from the Lee-Enfield to the FN-FAL, the deal with the Belgian gun maker fell through. It was from then that OFB started making in house parts of rifles. That is the reason why, Belgian FN-FAL and Indian made FN-FAL clones (called SLR) do not have many interchangeable parts. There was no FN-FAL in the British era.
    • OFB has parkarization techniques. This is a new technique that never exited during British era. In the British era, a black tarry material was used, called cosmoline.
    • OFB operates quite a few computer operated machines, the most important of which is the cold forging machine, which is very modern, and did not exist during British era.

    All I have to say Sir, you claims that OFB uses British era technology, is complete fiction.

    Edited to add:

    Please read this post.

    Old Carl-Gustav:
    upload_2015-7-5_2-34-40.jpeg

    New Carl-Gustav, 1991 technology. (British era ended in 1947). OFB started producing these after 1991.
    upload_2015-7-5_2-34-32.jpeg

    Even after seeing these pictures, if you still believe that OFB uses British era technology, then there is no point in arguing with you. You can believe whatever you want.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2015
  16. akshay m

    akshay m Regular Member

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    sorry, forgot to acknowledge the source
     
  17. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    No problem, and I am not complaining. I am just stating it, because I just recognized the picture. :)
     
  18. avknight1408

    avknight1408 Regular Member

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  19. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    Sir, I am not disputing the article you have posted.

    I have read what you wrote very carefully, and I am disputing that statement, "MoD has no way but to stick with OFB eventhough it uses British era technique of making weapons."

    Your article talks about one very specific facility 40 kms from Delhi.

    OFB has several more factories all over India. It is unfair to make a sweeping statement about OFB, when all you have to talk about is one specific location 40 km from Delhi.

    There is always room for improvement, and OFB is no exception. Perhaps you should not form an opinion about OFB by looking at one example that the article talks about.

    Anyway, I think I will fork a new thread based on that article.
     
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  20. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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  21. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    They singing peans now !! :pound:

    It implies 5.56 X 45 will remain the caliber of LMG or Indian army will continue to use 7.62 X 51..

    LMG and Carbines still remain to be cracked... what caliber will it be..:crazy:

    One of the basic idea to adopt 5.56 was to make it common for all varieties of Small Arms.:doh:

    Logistics will become nightmare with three different calibers.:lawl:
     

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