Eurofighter vs Rafale

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StealthSniper

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Dude, you're showing typical french arrogance at its best. Ease down and show some respect, you're not a superpower anymore.
Leave it to Armand to turn a thread about the Eurofighter and the Rafale into a discussion about the Rafale vs the MKI even though it's in an entirely different weight class and has nothing to do with the MMRCA and what it could mean for India for the next 20-30 years.

He can say what he wants, but we and other countries know the Sukhoi series aircraft works and works well, but the Rafale is not very well known and it's understandable why everyone is so skeptical of what it can do.
 

Armand2REP

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Leave it to Armand to turn a thread about the Eurofighter and the Rafale into a discussion about the Rafale vs the MKI even though it's in an entirely different weight class and has nothing to do with the MMRCA and what it could mean for India for the next 20-30 years.
I think you mean, leave it to p2prada. #81 was where he turned a one line reference of MKI to a two page discussion.

He can say what he wants, but we and other countries know the Sukhoi series aircraft works and works well, but the Rafale is not very well known and it's understandable why everyone is so skeptical of what it can do.
I will say what I want which is everyone to know what Rafale is about.
 

StealthSniper

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I think you mean, leave it to p2prada. #81 was where he turned a one line reference of MKI to a two page discussion.
Too bad he knows what he's talking about and you don't.

I will say what I want which is everyone to know what Rafale is about.
Good for you, but I will make my own conclusion on the Rafale and Eurofighter and I won't need help from you.
 
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Immanuel

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ASMP-A has a max speed of mach 3 and max range of 600 km, what good is it when you can't use it for anything else but for nuke launch ? The Mki does carry the Popeye, has been integrated as soon as it was purchased.

TRISHUL: Su-30MKI's Specified Warload

Litening 3/4, ATFLIR and Sniper Pods are far better on any given day. ATFLIR is by far the most advanced at this point.

Raytheon Company: ATFLIR - The Future is Now

http://www.rafael.co.il/marketing/SIP_STORAGE/FILES/7/477.pdf

All these pods have far more orders and are used by far more airforces out there. Damocles has like 6 users.

Hypersonic ASMP, firstly no need, there isn't a immediate nuke threat to france, unless may be the french polynesians are working hard slowly to pay back the honor you have shown them for years. Secondly, no need, whats the need for a Hypersonic one when ya'll are bent on using 300k bombs on weak opponents?

Rafale is combat proven yet struggling to find orders! The MKI will get new upgrades, new engines which will allow supercruise, bigger radar, longer range missiles, brahmos is still the world's fastest multirole supersonic cruise missile with a Hypersonic one soon to be ready. The Mki on any given day can carry more types of weapons including russian, Israeli and even Indian weapons. Its cheaper to operate than the Rafale per flight hour. Mki armed with R-77, Astra or even Meteor will kill the Rafale always.
 

slenke

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Dude, you're showing typical loser whining. Show some respect and quit trolling.
Loser whining? Ehm, have I wrote a single sentence where I whine about "losing"? No, I haven't. And at least I show some respect, and I am not as arrogant as you by a long way. You're certainly not doing yourself a favor, just enhancing the stereotypical image of an arrogant frenchman.

over and out.
 

p2prada

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Actually, with drop tanks. We already discussed it.

With one tank Rafale is equal to MKI internal fuel, she still has more bombs with it. Su-30 series aren't even combat tested, much less MKI.

Drag is caused by friction on the surface of the aircraft, the larger the surface the more drag. Rafale with an extra fuel tank is not even going to compare to the drag of MKI, and then there is the issue of the high drag of Russian munitions to low drag Western with folded fins. MKI uses bigger engines to move her fat ass through the air, which in turn consumes more fuel.
You still don't understand. The drag penalty on smaller aircraft is greater than on bigger aircraft when carrying the same payload or did you forget the MKI's engines are nearly twice as powerful.

Adding a 2000lt tank does not give you the same capability as the MKI on internals.

There is a reason why the SH is still called the better bomb truck compared to Euro canards or the Russian equivalents.

In the latest LM study, they said the MKI will be faster than the F-35 when carrying 8 AAMs(4+4) compared to 4 AAMs in the F-35s internal bay. MKI has a higher T/W than Rafale anytime of the day in all mission profiles.

The screenshot of T/Ws that you provided takes Rafale to have a weight of 3.5 tons over the empty weight. That would mean Rafale will have a T/W of 1.2 only when flying at 50% fuel and carrying 6 AAMs. That would make it a point defence fighter. Let's not forget the Al-31F has the best SFC among all engines in it's class.

That would be more of an issue affecting lift. Flankers use the fuselage area for a chunk of their lift ratio and sticking ordinance under it breaks that lift flow. That is why it is a last resort for such fighters, whether MiG-29 or Flankers and don't like to put ordinance there.
All aircraft need the fuselage for additional lift. Basic aerodynamics. It isn't a design point for Russians alone. That's why I gave the standard Rafale load out with only 2 drop tanks rather than 3. Don't expect the Rafale or MKI to get into dog fights when carrying A2G weaponry. The fact is even the AAM load out is not required while flying SEAD.

Apparently not well enough, aircraft never fly at MTOW. :laugh:
I gave the MTOW T/W figure as a design point. MKI surpasses Rafale at that.

Not true. Rafale will have emptied those tanks by the time it goes into combat where T/W is an issue... next
Not necessarily. Mission profiles are based on distance, but it does not take into account any exigency.

Don't worry about it. You will not understand until you realise one bomb on target is worth 100 off target.
LGBs are in use currently only to show that they do not support collateral damage. Come big wars and all war conventions will be forgotten.

Brahmos has nothing to do with the KAB-500. What matters is the distance between the two pylons and the protrusion length of the KAB kits. It is already laid out in the APA diagram.

It was the Su-30MK load out which has the same hard-points as the MKI. Check that...
The APA diagram is old and will cater to the old Chinese Flankers. Check Su-35 diagram. All the MKIs are post 2006 designs and the Su-35 is only an extension of the MKI development phase.

There has been no modification order to already contracted work. India don't even know what needs to be done.
Then HAL wouldn't be saying the modification can be done in house at lower costs. You can't support one sentence in an article and rubbish the rest.

ASMP A has been in service since July 2010. It is a Mach faster and twice the range of the oversized Brahmos.
You are comparing the air launched system to an omnirole missile. The Brahmos does Mach 2.8 at sea level, there is no equivalent. The sea level figure for Mach speeds is much higher than the high altitude Mach speeds.

Also India is already close to operationalizing the Shaurya cruise missile which is already hypersonic at Mach 6+ even at low altitudes. Sure it's not air launched but it can be compared to the ASMP Hypersonic version which achieves those speeds only at high altitudes.

So price negotiations are finalised? Do show me where because they had not been last month. :laugh:
No they aren't. But Russia will do the upgrades and the only paper which reported it is as usual sensationalizing the issue.

A hypersonic ASMP by 2015 is realistic given our advanced missile designs.
Sure. We have one hypersonic cruise missile flying already.
 
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p2prada

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I think you mean, leave it to p2prada. #81 was where he turned a one line reference of MKI to a two page discussion.
The entire gist of the discussion was to bring you down your high horse. The Rafale may have a bigger payload does not mean it will carry all that at once. So, the 1.5 tons extra over EF does not make a difference to either aircraft.

The comparison with MKI was so we can compare how an air superiority fighter was modified to become a good bomb truck which can be replicated on the EF-2000. That is already being done once Tranche 3 is out. Just because Rafale was ahead in it's development does not mean EF cannot do the same even though it is at a future date. The MKI does carry more or less equivalent to Rafale even when carrying the AASM along with having a load out of 1500Kg bombs and cruise missiles that cannot even be carried by the Rafale. After that MKI arsenal is more diverse, cheaper, some more capable than others etc etc. But this aspect has little to do with capability and the discussion that we are currently having.

The Rafale F1 is no different from EF Tranche 1. The Rafale F3 was the first Rafale that came with all the A2G capability while EF Tranche 3 is set to fly soon with similar capability.

Check this load out for EF-2000;





Both pictures show the EF flying with 4 Aim-120C7s and a combination of drop tanks and 500Kg LGBs and Sidewinders.
 

ace009

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I like the IRST features of the Rafale and for strike missions it will be an important asset. The Typhoon is definitely better as a A2A fighter, however, I would like to see how the Tranche 3 perform in A2G roles.
 

ace009

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IAF should buy the EF2000 for MMRCA and Strategic command + IN should buy the Rafale. How is that?
 

Armand2REP

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Pretty much ends that discussion...
 
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Archer

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Armand2REP, since you are so convinced about Rafale superiority, can you please inform us about the following things?

- What does it use for SEAD beyond 50 km? The MKI has the Kh-31
- When will the OSF get an IR channel? The MKI has a BVR detection range capable IRST
- What does the Rafale do for all weather recce? Does it have a radar SAR pod? The MKI has an ELTA SAR pod
- What is the range of the RBE-2 PESA? The Typhoon consortium routinely mocks the radar as being underpowered.
- Can the Rafale do buddy refuelling? The MKI can.

Just a few things I am sure the Rafale should be able to do as well or even better, since it can obviously do all the MKI can and more, right? ;)
 
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Archer

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I like the IRST features of the Rafale and for strike missions it will be an important asset. The Typhoon is definitely better as a A2A fighter, however, I would like to see how the Tranche 3 perform in A2G roles.
Present Rafales only have a TV channel, no IR channel. No firm date, AFAIK of when the IR channel will be available. Typhoon has an Imaging IR channel on its Pirate.
 

Armand2REP

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Armand2REP, since you are so convinced about Rafale superiority, can you please inform us about the following things?

- What does it use for SEAD beyond 50 km? The MKI has the Kh-31
Kh-31 is worthless against modern radars. Rafale has 3 options, AASM at 50k feet for 55-60km drop, AASM at treetop for 15-20km drop with a 90o bank shot or Scalp EG up to 300km. Spectra gets the location, Reco NG or Helios 2 gets the coordinates.

- When will the OSF get an IR channel? The MKI has a BVR detection range capable IRST
The OSF has had IR since its inception, that is its whole purpose. It also has channels for each MICA IR seeker and target pods. It is the most IR loaded aircraft available.

- What does the Rafale do for all weather recce? Does it have a radar SAR pod? The MKI has an ELTA SAR pod
MKI doesn't have a SAR pod, Rafale has Reco NG which is the most advanced recon pod on the market.

- What is the range of the RBE-2 PESA? The Typhoon consortium routinely mocks the radar as being underpowered.
Who cares, the PESA is not on offer.

- Can the Rafale do buddy refuelling? The MKI can.
Of course, it does it every day off the coast of Libya. MKI can't as India didn't buy refueling pods.

Just a few things I am sure the Rafale should be able to do as well or even better, since it can obviously do all the MKI can and more, right? ;)
Of course, Rafale avionics are a generation ahead of outdated Russian junk.

Present Rafales only have a TV channel, no IR channel. No firm date, AFAIK of when the IR channel will be available. Typhoon has an Imaging IR channel on its Pirate.
Makes no sense, Rafale has anywhere from 2-6 IR channels depending on how many MICA IR are on it.
 

Immanuel

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Scalp EG is useless against modern day SAMs due to its slow subsonic speed, a simple Akash can shoot it down. AASM is too expensive too useless for India due to such a high price and no added value. A JDAM-ER or SDB can do the same job out to a longer range at a much lower cost. kh-31 atleast has speed and capability, it can destroy lot of types of radars old and new. Please the most advanced recon pod on the market is the SHARP used by the SH which can be used for longer range recon than the Reco Ng, Reco Ng is nowhere close to the SHARP in capability. Rafale avionics are any good only because of sensi US made materials from targeting to radar components, a lot of such sensi avionics are coming from the US. Frankly the Russians are way ahead in a lot of things considering they are working on a 5th gen fighter and everything from su-30mki to su-35 can kill the rafale without flinching for a minute. The su-30mki armed wth r-77 or Astra will easily shoot down the Rafale, using OLS a su-30mki can indeed detect a fighter 90km away in the rear hemi compare that to OSF which is limited in range. su-30mki even in its current version will whoop a rafale.

If anything is outdated, its the french mentality that everything you build is the best frankly; a very big no. Russia is a super power, France isnt. Russia can eat 3 frances for breakfast like croissants. And yes mki does has a SAR pod. Mki can do buddy refueling and does it often.
 
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Archer

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Kh-31 is worthless against modern radars.
Says who? The Kh-31 is a valuable piece of kit for SEAD and the PD variant with its wideband seeker and improved onboard guidance is good for even DEAD. So the Rafale has no ARM.

Rafale has 3 options, AASM at 50k feet for 55-60km drop, AASM at treetop for 15-20km drop with a 90o bank shot or Scalp EG up to 300km. Spectra gets the location, Reco NG or Helios 2 gets the coordinates.
As I said apart from the AASM, and spending SCALPs to suppress every popup threat, good way to go broke mate..

Bottomline: No dedicated ARM apart from a ~50km electrooptic seeker equipped AASM, and hence cannot suppress a popup radar target at range.

The OSF has had IR since its inception, that is its whole purpose. It also has channels for each MICA IR seeker and target pods. It is the most IR loaded aircraft available.
It currently has no IR channel but only the CCD and a LRF. Its been removed due to obscolescence concerns and not been replaced. The Mica IR inputs are fed to the MDPU, but its not a perfect solution by any means as the amount of cooled nitrogen carried for a missile is limited, not to mention missiles have limited airframe carriage life.

http://rafale.freeforums.org/osf-problems-t43.html
Tmor: July 2009 Current F3 have no OSF at all.

In fact, we have :

F2 with OSF (now being retrofitted in F3 -17 F2 remaining today) ;
F3-O (obsolescence) with no OSF (neither TV nor IR) ;
and by 2012, F3+ with OSF-IT (=OSF-IP) with only the TV channel.


After the OSF-IP (or IT), the next step will be the OSF-NG with the new technology for the IR channel. (source : Air & cosmos)

http://www.electronicaviation.com/aircraft/Dassault_Rafale/819

According to Defence Analysis (p.17, Vol 8.No.12 December 2005) Dassault have called the RBE2 radar 'fatally flawed' alleging that its range was "inadequate" and averring that the Rafale therefore relied on AWACS support to overcome this. The DGA also described Rafale's OSF ("Optronique Secteur Frontal") as "obsolescent" and production has been cut back to just 48 units, rather than the planned number, which was to have been sufficient to equip all F1 and F2 versions.
Bottomline, no IR channel for the Rafale yet, and no clear timeline mentioned. Let me know if you find a ref in french sources.

Meanwhile:
Optical radar station 36Sh-01 for aircraft Su-30MKI;
http://uomz.ru/eng/index.php?page=products&pid=100176

Gee, IR channel right there.

MKI doesn't have a SAR pod, Rafale has Reco NG which is the most advanced recon pod on the market.
Educate yourself mon frerre (did i spell that right?), MKI uses the ELTA 2060 SAR POD.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2441/3635340264_70322eec62.jpg

Bottomline, the Rafale has no all weather pod unlike the MKI.

Who cares, the PESA is not on offer.
AESA is stated to offer 40-50% more range than the PESA, if the PESA had severely limited range to begin with...
Given the Rafale does not have currently even the range on the F-16 Block 60 and had to be upgraded to meet UAE requirements for the same, whereas the Bars has range equivalent or superior to the Block 60, the MKI has the edge in radar detection as well. The Super 30 upgrade will extend that further.

Net, the Rafale seems to have an issue in a nose not sufficiently large for a long range radar, as noted by Bill Sweetman in July, DTI

Of course, it does it every day off the coast of Libya. MKI can't as India didn't buy refueling pods.
Ding! Wrong again.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_2istSpJf6tk/TGL4bioGTOI/AAAAAAAAAhQ/3OFVpX6Iwcs/s1600/Cob.jpg

BTW, which pod does the Rafale use? I am asking about buddy refuelling, not IFR.

Of course, Rafale avionics are a generation ahead of outdated Russian junk.
LOL, sure, just because you say so, even though it does not even appear to have all the capabilities circa 2011 which the MKI has had for several years now.

The generation ahead French avionics/junk/whatever aka the RBE-2 AESA apparently has issues meeting a generation older American set, which is not even the latest American set in terms of bricks, and whose performance is anyways not greater than that of the N011M on the MKI. Just compare the aperture, gain & product.

Rafale News - Page 116

With the general Alain SILVY
Deputy Chief Plans within the Staff of the Air Force.

And about the UAE demand to have a more powerful RBE2 radar, could it answer to some expectations for the Air force?

The Air Force is interested in having a RBE2 with an active antenna. It is now established with the powerful AESA antenna which will equip our tranche 4 Rafale. What the Emirians are calling for is much more complex. They want, in addition to the AESA, to have new functionalities on their Rafale, such as GMTT / GMTI (detection and tracking of moving ground target), interlacing between air/air and air/ground modes, etc.. Even if this is not for us an urgent need, the operational 'plus' obtained could nonetheless eventually interest us. However, the key Emirian demand is about the range of the RBE2. And, with the same antenna diameter, the only way to achieve the 10% range increase (compared with the Basic AESA F3 "roadmap") that wish to obtain the Emirians, is a big boost to the power of the radar.

The Emirati experts participating in negotiations are well aware of the problem. But they are also used to have very high quality weapons systems. They want to avoid any regression with the Rafale, at least on the radar range, compared to the F-16 Block 60, the Rafale having also many other qualities. The Emirians don't have AWACS and therefore want - it is a fundamental requirement - that the Rafale can see very far.
Why is the French junk not meeting UAE requirements? Oh, the UAE I tell you...:p


Makes no sense, Rafale has anywhere from 2-6 IR channels depending on how many MICA IR are on it.
Yes, brilliant. So, load up the Rafale with an AF's stock of IR Micas and fly around with them using them as a stand in IRST, instead of a dedicated set. Meantime, use up their airframe hours. An even better solution than the brilliance of putting an IRST on the front of a fuel tank as on the F/A-18.
 
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Archer

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Oh wait, a few more questions.

Apart from LGBs - eg Griffin series, which the IAF is busy using on all fighters for 1000 lb'ers and the new Sudarshan (presumably also to be standardized).

1. MKI has KAB-500 series bombs. Can be lobbed also at long range, from altitude. Rafale equivalent?
Tactical Missiles Corporation JSC

2. MKI has Kh-59 ME for long range precision strikes. 115 km range. Rafale equivalent?
Tactical Missiles Corporation JSC

3. MKI has Kh-29 Laser/TV guided missiles for precision strike using Litening cued by radar. Rafale equivalent?
Tactical Missiles Corporation JSC
Image of Litening equipped Su-30 MKI firing Kh-29: http://www.torqueaviation.com/images/bigthumb/miltavbig (104).jpg

4. Unguided systems. For cost effective carpet bombing.
The Su-30MKI Info Page - Vayu Sena
FAB-500T, BETAB-500ShP,ODAB-500PM, OFAB-250-270 , OFAB-100-120, P-50T, RBK-500 bomb clusters with PBE-D, Incendiary tanks
Many of these are unique systems either useful against dispersed targets, or offer incendiary effect and other features.

You see strike is all about being cost effective, as using AASMs costs a lot of 'em Euros & 300 km Scalp's (for which 42 Su-30MKIs are getting modified for Brahmos carriage as it is).

So apart from all the above areas, do clarify where the super advanced French systems for the above Russian equivalents are. And no mention please of "American junk" - GBU this, GBU that, as the French are mighty and far more advanced than even the Americans. :p

BTW: what we have so far on the Rafale which is so superior to the Su-30 MKI.
1 No ARM beyond "hey we have AASM, AASM"
2 No IRST - as matter of fact even a CCD OSF is due only by 2012
3 No All weather SAR pod
4 Radar with a more limited range compared to earlier fighters with equally limited nose array, let alone Su-30 MKI with a one meter dish and a hybrid array, and even AESA radar with 40-50% more barely matches earlier fighters.
5 No evidence (yet) of a buddy refuelling pod, though it is stated to be so. Still waiting.

1-5 all, already available on the Su-30 MKI.
 
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Archer

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Pretty surprising. Looks like the current Su-30 MKI is actually ahead of the "i-am-french-so-not-junk" ;) Rafale F3 (yet to be fielded) in terms of several key sensors, and weapons. Gee whiz. And this without even considering additional systems for a MKI + such as:

1. Brahmos
India To Test Air-Launched Variant of Brahmos Missile In 2012 | AVIATION WEEK

2. Nirbhay
Su-30MKI To Get Indian Nirbhay Cruise Missile | AVIATION WEEK

3.The Super 30 upgrade
Fierce fighter : Radar: India Today

Delhi: The IAF has begun the 'Super 30' project to upgrade its Sukhoi-30MKI fighters with new radars, mission computers, electronic warfare systems and Brahmos missiles. Recently cleared by the Cabinet Committee on Security, the Sukhoi design bureau will start upgrading two prototypes in Moscow this year.

The IAF's famed SUkhoi-30MKI fighters are about to get an upgrade
The first two Super 30s will fly into India in 2012 after which upgrades will be incorporated into the last batch of 40 Sukhois being licence-built at HAL, Nasik, from 2015. The IAF operates around 100 Su-30mkis and will add another 170 in the next decade.
And:

IAF to upgrade SU-30 fighter aircraft - Economic Times

Seems to me like the Rafale will fall further behind the Su-30 MKI in terms of some key multi-role capabilities, when the Super 30 appears, n'est-ce pas?
 
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death.by.chocolate

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Agree on most counts but I do have a few nitpicks.

3 No All weather SAR pod
RBE-2 AESA is SAR capable.
Extended waveform agility, making it possible to acquire submetric synthetic aperture (SAR) imagery while increasing the radar's resistance to jamming
Thales AESA RBE2 radar validated on Rafale - Thales Group
5 No evidence (yet) of a buddy refuelling pod, though it is stated to be so. Still waiting.


not a perfect solution by any means as the amount of cooled nitrogen carried for a missile is limited
MICA IR is equipped with a self contained closed cycle cooling system that requires no seeker service.
 

Archer

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Agree on most counts but I do have a few nitpicks.
RBE-2 AESA is SAR capable.
MKI Bars has SAR as well, already. That does not compare to a SAR pod which offers greater look angle, and more range, besides being customized for the role. The radar data can be datalinked for real time analysis to a receiving station as well. Better resolution as well.

So for proper surveillance, you need a pod. Unless you develop - one day - antennas all over the airframe - the radar smart skin and use adaptive waveforms and multiple beams for multiple functions.

Refer (for MKI)

http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/With-MiG-25s-gone-Sukhois-to-become-eye-in-the-sky/222859/

Thanks. This is useful and at least one equal ability amongst the specific queries. This is a plus for the Rafale. It can apparently do buddy refuelling without a pod, am I right? If so, this is good stuff.

MICA IR is equipped with a self contained closed cycle cooling system that requires no seeker service.
Dont get you here. You mean to say the MICA IR does not have to rely on inert gases like nitrogen & can indefinitely cool itself?

Please confirm.

Even so - I'd not think that relying on missiles for the primary IRST function is cost effective. They are weapons, with limited on carriage time. Using them for a non primary role, just uses up their valuable airframe hours and for the usual air to air missile, airframe carriage is usually in the few tens of hours before it has to be sent back to depot for a refurbish. Time consuming and expensive and only possible a few times at best

Airframe apart, theres battery life as well.
 
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