EU warns of collapsing Pakistan, upbeat about India ties

[Soham]

I personally hope for secular pakistan, like turkey.

That would be a dream come true..!
I admire Turkey for the way they have handled their nation and modernized without letting the extremist elements take them back to stone age.

The Taliban are still very much a convenient asset to Pakistan, despite their recent operations against them. Everytime they need funds, all they have to do is say something like, "If the world does not save democracy, then the nukes might fall into the wrong hands." That is enough to get a lot of politicians pacing in Washington, and the next day another set of "funds to save democracy" pour in.

As far as EU's stand is concerned, they do nothing but appease. If we are powerful today, they'll pass statements that favour us. On the other hand, in the cold war era, when Pakistan was fully loaded by the US, their support quite obviously went to Pakistan(not that I don't agree with what they did..)

On the other hand, favourable terms with the EU might help our case in our UNSC bid.

 

[Soham]

Pakistan has to end this fear of an Indian invasion, this fear has made them vulnerable to manipulation by the bigger powers, this manipulation has helped increase Pakistani weaponry and make the higher ranking Army rich, but it has done little for the common man.
The whole world has moved on from their rivalries and we are still stuck in this 60 year old nonsense, I like to remain optimistic about the future ,relations can and will improve we were all once the same people, with improved relations prosperity will come to the region.

Which all countries have moved on ?

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Which all countries have moved on ?

USA-Russia
Japan-China
N. Korea-S.Korea
East Germany-West Germany
Greece-Turkey
Egypt-Israel
USA-Cuba

others can add to the list these are the ones that come up for now

 

[Soham]

USA-Russia
Japan-China
N. Korea-S.Korea
East Germany-West Germany
Greece-Turkey
Egypt-Israel
USA-Cuba

others can add to the list these are the ones that come up for now

Except East Germnay-West Germany(because now their are united) and maybe Greece and Turkey, the others are still pretty much rivals.

USA and Russia have become friends ? The statements and stands of both countries talk otherwise.
North Korea and South Korea are friends ? They are ready to nuke each other to stone age.

Japan and China are friends ? You seriously think so ? The biggest rivals in the region suddenly became friends ?

Egypt has to get along with Israel because it can't afford enemity. Israel is too powerful for the Egyptians and after their crushing defeat in the Six day war, Egypt has no choice but to comply.

USA-Cuba were never rivals. Cuba was just a Soviet irritant for the US. Even then, Cuba is still an authoritarian country which is not getting any US support in the near future.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Soham I know what you are trying to say, there will always be mistrust but what i am saying is with some cooperation stability can come to the region which would be beneficial to all.

 

[Soham]

Soham I know what you are trying to say, there will always be mistrust but what i am saying is with some cooperation stability can come to the region which would be beneficial to all.

Ofcourse it would. Just as Mr. Obama says.
But as long as our dear neighbour is busy sponsoring terrorism in our country and praying for our demise, busy sponsoring separatist movements, busy trying to wave the Kashmir issue frantically, the idea of co-operation towards peace sounds Utopian to me.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Ofcourse it would. Just as Mr. Obama says.
But as long as our dear neighbour is busy sponsoring terrorism in our country and praying for our demise, busy sponsoring separatist movements, busy trying to wave the Kashmir issue frantically, the idea of co-operation towards peace sounds Utopian to me.

it will not change fast maybe a few generations, and it will definetly not come with any third party interference, we are spending 30 billion a year on defense as the economy grows in next 3-5 years that could be 50 billion, pakistan has to realize there is no keeping up 50 billion would be 33%+ of pakistan's GDP. In 5 years if BMD is complete most of Pak nuclear arsenal will be rendered useless,so the 2 threats they have terror and nukes maybe obsolete in the future. i am not being utopian i know peace will come either by diplomacy or by war.

 

[Vladimir79]

There is nothing wrong with national identity.
People get mad if system doesnt work.
They are angry at the system.

You say you want secular society like Turkiye but at the same cost? They have similar situation to Pakistan where the government is under the gun of the military. It is only that miltiary that keeps it secular under the Kamilist constitution. Pakistan has lived under Musharaf dictatorship so long they have not seperated military from government control. They have the same problems as Pakistan to a lesser degree with seperatists. Turkiye is at odds with just about every border they share, Greece, Armenia, Cyprus, and Iraq. Pakistani law has more freedoms for its citizens than Kurds in Turkey. I see alot of similarities already, you just have to reform Wahabi thinking and pacify the traitors. If you do that and settle the India dispute you will be light years ahead of Turks.

 

[Vladimir79]

USA-Russia
Japan-China
N. Korea-S.Korea
East Germany-West Germany
Greece-Turkey
Egypt-Israel
USA-Cuba

others can add to the list these are the ones that come up for now

Remove, NK/SK, that rivalry is on big time
Greece/Turkiye is far from over
USA/Cuba is still not resolved
USA/Russia, our defence companies are still embargoed by US, I would not call this a healthy relationship

 

[Payeng]

IMO there are few people if not all who are in favour of unified Korea, but at the same time their are two powers that wont let it happen namely The US and PRC, I think its more of an international politics their lacked by action from the peoples side, I would like if some one would like to comment on my reply including our Chinese mates here. or am I taking this discussion off tropic?

 

[Vladimir79]

IMO there are few people if not all who are in favour of unified Korea, but at the same time their are two powers that wont let it happen namely The US and PRC, I think its more of an international politics their lacked by action from the peoples side, I would like if some one would like to comment on my reply including our Chinese mates here. or am I taking this discussion off tropic?

Big time off topic... this has nothing to do with Korea.

 

[Soham]

IMO there are few people if not all who are in favour of unified Korea, but at the same time their are two powers that wont let it happen namely The US and PRC, I think its more of an international politics their lacked by action from the peoples side, I would like if some one would like to comment on my reply including our Chinese mates here. or am I taking this discussion off tropic?

North Korea has gone too far into licking Kim Jong-il's boots that their return from a locked state to a state of freedom is but a distant dream.

The discussion here would be strongly off-topic. Why don't you start a new thread for it ? I'm sure its an excellent subject of discussion and might attract interesting debates.

 

[Fighter]

You say you want secular society like Turkiye but at the same cost? They have similar situation to Pakistan where the government is under the gun of the military. It is only that miltiary that keeps it secular under the Kamilist constitution. Pakistan has lived under Musharaf dictatorship so long they have not seperated military from government control. They have the same problems as Pakistan to a lesser degree with seperatists. Turkiye is at odds with just about every border they share, Greece, Armenia, Cyprus, and Iraq. Pakistani law has more freedoms for its citizens than Kurds in Turkey. I see alot of similarities already, you just have to reform Wahabi thinking and pacify the traitors. If you do that and settle the India dispute you will be light years ahead of Turks.

Wahabi thinking is really bad, i agree.
But we are addicted to foreign aid.

 

[Vladimir79]

Wahabi thinking is really bad, i agree.
But we are addicted to foreign aid.

And the people hate being US pawns. You see it everywhere. The future of Pakistan cannot rely on such frivality. The state of education is deplorable.

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Getting an education in Pakistan

 

[SixSigma1978]

Pakistan's not going to collapse anytime soon.Just so the EU comes to the attention for even greater bilateral trade.Just sweetening for India's ears.

When masses and lawyers come out to garland a killer who assassinated a GOVERNOR and no one is able to do anything about it - you know that country is in big trouble! I don't know what the appropriate definition of collapse really is - but if you sum up ALL the following:
1) Pakistan's economy is no longer self-reliant. It is defined by foreign aid - without which it will consume up its tiny 17 odd billion $ foreign exchange in a matter of months
2) Pakistan's cycle of violence has gone beyond vanilla tangibility. Pakistani security experts - for the first time - have no clue as to WHY the hundreds of different factions are murdering, and killing people - muslims across Pakistan! Uptil the Soviets in Afghanistan, all of Pakistani "Fringe" elements had a cause to fight for. Other than the few anti-american outfits - most groups have fallen into chaos - where murder and ransom is no different from the banditry of the middle ages - and this cycle of violence is getting more and more frequent.
3) Karachi - Pakistan's principal port city - is a city under siege. The traffic reports, the news reports of lukewarm activity within the relatively minuscule Karachi Stock Exchange, the casual way of life reports in local media - belie the truth no one in Pakistan is willing to admit : The daily violence, over 30 murders a day, daylight robberies and murders, gangster driven militias roaming highly sectorized communities and the rapid decline of trade is slowly turning karachi into an urban hell.
4) Unlike the bravado's of Pakistan's "successful" war against Al Qaeda and Taliban - the fact of the matter is - Pakistan is simply hitting the outlying militias - the bulk of the taliban and al qaeda - which number more than 30000 by some estimates- are sitting pretty in N Waziristan. That number is too great and too guerilla for an army like Pakistani army to take on. The rules of the games just don't apply there. They're still intact -and they're STILL a major threat.
5) After Lal MAsjid operation - Pakistanis know that the civil or millitary administration - can no longer attempt a raid like that - the repercussions will be enormous - implying the rogue islamists now have a field run - as in sanctuaries in such mosques and madrasas to run and plan destructive operations right under the nose of the authorities!!!

Its a potent mix. And like I said in the beginnin - this may not end up being a collapse like Somalia or even Afghanistan - but an Authoritarian, single party islamist pakistan akin to Iran right on India's border is a nightmare no one wants..and no one would suffer more than the Pakistanis themselves

 

[debasree]

Pakistan's not going to collapse anytime soon.Just so the EU comes to the attention for even greater bilateral trade.Just sweetening for India's ears.

its true but india should take the innitiative and told eu unless they stop hobnobing with pakis,then there will be no big civilian or millitary deals with them

 

[gogbot]

I think you guys are being far too optimistic of the repercussions of a Pakistani collapse.

At it is now it would only worsen our problems.

not even India Ghandi wanted a Pakistani collapse.

Her & Our aims are the complete and utter destruction of the Pakistani Military industrial complex.
The state itself must somehow hold together to form a country , either that or balkanisation.

Population if intrinsically hostile to India , removing any illusion of Annexation.

Pakistan it self is not in control of its radicals , they will hardly disappear any time soon.
if anything a collapse would only increase the pool of recruit-able candidates.

As of now the best case is the removal of the military as a political force in pakistan.
Baring that Balkanisation is the only acceptable solution.

Collapse is unacceptable on many accounts.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

pakistan is a state created by the british which has survived collapse for the last 63 years because of chinese and american donations.they will continue until this funding stops.

 

[SLASH]

its true but india should take the innitiative and told eu unless they stop hobnobing with pakis,then there will be no big civilian or millitary deals with them

Military ties in can understand. But the government cannot put an end to bilateral trade between India and EU. We are at a very early stage of development. Only lately we've been reaping the fruits of our efforts for the last two decades. Lets enjoy it for a little more time. Once we are strong enough and in a better position than we can make such demands. At the moment there is nothing much we can do other than lobbying and getting more countries on our side through diplomatic channels.