EU warns of collapsing Pakistan, upbeat about India ties

Vladimir79

Professional
Joined
Jul 1, 2009
Messages
1,404
Likes
82
Yes you want and need Pakistan whole.
Yes you need no more terrorists
Yes Pakistan needs to deal with the inherent problem that has developed over time with little long term thought.
Problem is Pakistan has little national identity. It is every tribe for itself before a greater Pakistan falls far down on the list. Without the support of the international community and India, this state will fail. It is only its hatred of India that really unifies them in the first place. They can hardly agree who the enemy is. More blame CIA/Mossad conspiracy theories than the actual terrorists. They think everything is about them wanting to take their precious nuklear weapons when it is only the fear that they will fall into the wrong hands. Based on these premises; this state shouldn't even exist.
 

Soham

DFI TEAM
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2009
Messages
1,972
Likes
91
Country flag
Yes Pakistan needs to deal with the inherent problem that has developed over time with little long term thought.
Sir,
I'd rather call it a misfired very long term thought.
Even though I'm not in a favour of a disintegrated Pakistan creating more mess all around us, if you think about it, the disintegration will break the Pakistan China axis freeing up the western front and put down the tension of war on two fronts.
However, it would create more problems that it would solve.
 

Dark Sorrow

Respected Member
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
4,988
Likes
9,931
eu needs to be told to mind their own business than worry too much of what is happening in rest of the world and stop terming others failed or successful, just reminds me of their comments and resolutions on kashmir where once they say PoK has no freedom and then to please pakistan they comment something on similar lines on J&K, though its another thing that pakistan today is in no such position to tell the eu to mind its own business when they depend on them on the aid, least we allow these countries to be the global policemen and be dictated.

pakistan has failed on a lot of fronts no doubt in that and even today they survive on international financial aid that flows into that country, or in a country where frequent outages can get people on the streets then one can only wonder what would have happened if pakistan would have defaulted on its payments due which in the end would have led to hyper inflation of one of the worst kinds.

taliban a threat seems to have been hyped up or the so-called imminent threat of pakistan's take over would have happened by now and the same hype today is being linked up with the financial aid pakistan got from the us, it is surprising even ms clinton, sect of state, has gone quite on this threat post the passage of bill of financial aid to pakistan. on a second thought, when was taliban a real threat to pakistan which at the end of the day was and is nothing more than a strategic tool of pakistani establishment, which functions directly under the isi.

past experience has shown pakistani establishment directly sheltering the top command of the taliban, where their conversations have been tapped of giving instructions to the taliban top command, or one of their maj gen seen with one such talib and at least for the moment there are no valid reasons to believe the pak army version which always has been trying to play to international/domestic tunes when the on ground situation has been very different. an army that took over 7 years to accept that men in kargil were their own or in 71 during the liberation of bangladesh this same army was supposedly winning till the time the surrender happened then there is no way on earth one can ever believe the version of pak army where they every day claim to have made substantial gains.

the way it seems now, all this drama is being played to assure financial aid to pakistan which was on the verge of being bankrupt an act ably supported by the us administration which in no way can afford pakistan to fall in the fold of prc more so given the strategic location of pakistan which is at a stone throw away distance off india and prc, which both have a potential of tipping the us as both these economies race away to take the top slot and both could emerge as a challenge to the us's super power status which could alter the world power dimensions for ever.
I completely agree with Ritesh. The hole issue is to get money in Pakistan. Frankly US doesnot care for any this issue, they just want to keep terror strikes out of their country and they are ready to go to any extremes to achieve this. Also by paying Pakistan the US has kept Pakistan in their pocket. Pakistan has got a good strategic location. By having Pakistan US got 3 kills in 1 arrow. US would have a foothold in Indian Sub-Continent thus they can have base of operation aginst PRC and India(in future), Iran(if required) and Afganistan, US can content the sphere of influence of PRC and Russia and finally they can choke PRC for oil supply and trade if PRC dares to engage with US.
 

Dark Sorrow

Respected Member
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
4,988
Likes
9,931
One thing I wish to comment on EU is that even if they want they can't do anything regarding this issue.
 

Ratus Ratus

Professional
Joined
Jul 1, 2009
Messages
114
Likes
0
Problem is Pakistan has little national identity. It is every tribe for itself before a greater Pakistan falls far down on the list. Without the support of the international community and India, this state will fail. It is only its hatred of India that really unifies them in the first place. They can hardly agree who the enemy is. More blame CIA/Mossad conspiracy theories than the actual terrorists. They think everything is about them wanting to take their precious nuklear weapons when it is only the fear that they will fall into the wrong hands. Based on these premises; this state shouldn't even exist.
True Pakistan has in many respect little national identity. But is that a fault of the people or of the various disruptive governments they have tried to have.

It has taken them till now to accept that FATA and other areas can not just bump along with little governance from the national level. There have been excuses for letting FATA progress "tribally" but this excuse has been part of the problem.

Possibly it is the need for some catastrophic issue to form the country into a nation. Possibly democracy will prevail. But that is something thy will have to relearn.

It is possible that Pakistan is at this all important turning point, where it will solidify into a real nation.
It is realy something everyone should hope for.
 

Ratus Ratus

Professional
Joined
Jul 1, 2009
Messages
114
Likes
0
Sir,
I'd rather call it a misfired very long term thought.
Even though I'm not in a favour of a disintegrated Pakistan creating more mess all around us, if you think about it, the disintegration will break the Pakistan China axis freeing up the western front and put down the tension of war on two fronts.
However, it would create more problems that it would solve.
The two front issue may not actually go away but be reformed with different combatants. Any buffer states formed will slowly vanish into the 'mother' support state.
Nothing is going to be clear cut as it can be made in forums like this.
 

Daredevil

On Vacation!
Super Mod
Joined
Apr 5, 2009
Messages
11,615
Likes
5,772
Until unless Pakistani Army doesn't come under the firm control of democratically elected civilian government, this country has no future. The current 'dog and pony' show will work only so longer the 'aid' is trickling. Once it stops, we are back to square one with PA at the helm.

This nation has to reinvent itself, the binding factor of Islam will no longer work, in fact, it brought them nothing but disaster. They need to redefine their identity not based on Islam and not based on hatred towards India but based on some common frame work encompassing and taking care of the culturally diverse provinces. We need to wait and watch, which direction they are going to take. More Islam or more Pakistaniat?.
 

Fighter

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2009
Messages
304
Likes
0
Problem is Pakistan has little national identity. It is every tribe for itself before a greater Pakistan falls far down on the list. Without the support of the international community and India, this state will fail. It is only its hatred of India that really unifies them in the first place. They can hardly agree who the enemy is. More blame CIA/Mossad conspiracy theories than the actual terrorists. They think everything is about them wanting to take their precious nuklear weapons when it is only the fear that they will fall into the wrong hands. Based on these premises; this state shouldn't even exist.
There is nothing wrong with national identity.
People get mad if system doesnt work.
They are angry at the system.
 

Fighter

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2009
Messages
304
Likes
0
True Pakistan has in many respect little national identity. But is that a fault of the people or of the various disruptive governments they have tried to have.

It has taken them till now to accept that FATA and other areas can not just bump along with little governance from the national level. There have been excuses for letting FATA progress "tribally" but this excuse has been part of the problem.

Possibly it is the need for some catastrophic issue to form the country into a nation. Possibly democracy will prevail. But that is something thy will have to relearn.

It is possible that Pakistan is at this all important turning point, where it will solidify into a real nation.
It is realy something everyone should hope for.
There is nothing wrong with identity.
The problem pakistan faces is created of course be pakistanis but also by the circumstances.
Its most like chain reaction.
 

Fighter

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2009
Messages
304
Likes
0
Until unless Pakistani Army doesn't come under the firm control of democratically elected civilian government, this country has no future. The current 'dog and pony' show will work only so longer the 'aid' is trickling. Once it stops, we are back to square one with PA at the helm.

This nation has to reinvent itself, the binding factor of Islam will no longer work, in fact, it brought them nothing but disaster. They need to redefine their identity not based on Islam and not based on hatred towards India but based on some common frame work encompassing and taking care of the culturally diverse provinces. We need to wait and watch, which direction they are going to take. More Islam or more Pakistaniat?.
Pakistan is like most muslim nations. :D
 

Payeng

Daku Mongol Singh
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2009
Messages
2,522
Likes
777
There is nothing wrong with identity.
The problem pakistan faces is created of course be pakistanis but also by the circumstances.
Its most like chain reaction.
Fighter, what is the reason for all these problems in you opinion?
 

Fighter

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2009
Messages
304
Likes
0
Fighter, what is the reason for all these problems in you opinion?
There are many reasons. Things are complicated and i dont know them all. I acknowledge that.
Thats way i dont like when indians just point fingers at pakistan and say pakistan is to be blamed. It will take you nowhere.

Internal problems:
1. Corruption, feudalism, lack of democracy, lack of education
2. Mullahs Arab influence, mentality,
3. Pakistani constitution
4. Kashmiri issue

External problems:
1. Lack of responsibility of rich countries.
2. Influence of Usa
3. World order

Mix this together and there is big trouble.
Its a chain reaction. Its very difficult to stop it.
 

Payeng

Daku Mongol Singh
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2009
Messages
2,522
Likes
777
There are many reasons. Things are complicated and i dont know them all. I acknowledge that.
Thats way i dont like when indians just point fingers at pakistan and say pakistan is to be blamed. It will take you nowhere.

Internal problems:
1. Corruption, feudalism, lack of democracy, lack of education
2. Mullahs Arab influence, mentality,
3. Pakistani constitution
4. Kashmiri issue

External problems:
1. Lack of responsibility of rich countries.
2. Influence of Usa
3. World order

Mix this together and there is big trouble.
Its a chain reaction. Its very difficult to stop it.
I agree not all people are bad, but when we put a finger on Pakistan its not for a single person but the system as a whole, when the system is corrupt its the responsibility of the general public to change it, otherwise they should better be ready to bear the blame. I don't want to see a poor neighbor but at the same time I wont allow someone to grow stronger with a wrong ideology who can prove me a trouble, so its natural for India will blame Pakistan until and unless Pakistan changes its ideology, same goes for the peace process. When Pakistan supports the extremist movement in Kashmir unfortunately all gets the blame including those who are passive. So I think its high time for the people of Pakistan to introspect themselves and get rid of what is wrong, and lead to a better way of life. I think this is the real meaning of Jihad (though correct me if I am wrong)

What do you say about 'ideology' is it also a cause for the problem in your opinion?
 

1.44

Member of The Month SEPTEMBER 2009
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Messages
4,359
Likes
52
Pakistan since it's formation has not had one leader who hasn't been obsessed with India or the settlement of kashmir.Successive administrations have viewed India as the constant military threat.Spending away billion of dollars in acquiring weapons to gain a military advantage over India that cannot be achieved.
Agree with daredevil that Pakistan need to reinvent itself in a way that is not based Islam or hatred toward India but the need to work toward the future development and prosperity of their country.
 

Fighter

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2009
Messages
304
Likes
0
I agree not all people are bad, but when we put a finger on Pakistan its not for a single person but the system as a whole, when the system is corrupt its the responsibility of the general public to change it, otherwise they should better be ready to bear the blame. I don't want to see a poor neighbor but at the same time I wont allow someone to grow stronger with a wrong ideology who can prove me a trouble, so its natural for India will blame Pakistan until and unless Pakistan changes its ideology, same goes for the peace process. When Pakistan supports the extremist movement in Kashmir unfortunately all gets the blame including those who are passive. So I think its high time for the people of Pakistan to introspect themselves and get rid of what is wrong, and lead to a better way of life. I think this is the real meaning of Jihad (though correct me if I am wrong)

What do you say about 'ideology' is it also a cause for the problem in your opinion?
You are absolutely right.
I just think it will take time.

In which sense do you mean ideology.
 

Fighter

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2009
Messages
304
Likes
0
Pakistan since it's formation has not had one leader who hasn't been obsessed with India or the settlement of kashmir.Successive administrations have viewed India as the constant military threat.Spending away billion of dollars in acquiring weapons to gain a military advantage over India that cannot be achieved.
Agree with daredevil that Pakistan need to reinvent itself in a way that is not based Islam or hatred toward India but the need to work toward the future development and prosperity of their country.
I personally hope for secular pakistan, like turkey.
 

1.44

Member of The Month SEPTEMBER 2009
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Messages
4,359
Likes
52
I hope your leaders begin to think the same way as you,it would be beneficial to their future.
 

Payeng

Daku Mongol Singh
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2009
Messages
2,522
Likes
777
The ideology that Kashmir should be independent or be with Pakistan just because its an Muslim majority region or for the Islam cause, at the same time I am not starting the blame game, I am a supporter of making lOC to IB. though all may not agree with me.

BTW I welcome you to DFI here as you are not ready to open an intro thread. Enjoy your stay here and contribute your views and knowledge with us.

Regards,

Payeng
 

Fighter

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2009
Messages
304
Likes
0
The ideology that Kashmir should be independent or be with Pakistan just because its an Muslim majority region or for the Islam cause, at the same time I am not starting the blame game, I am a supporter of making lOC to IB. though all may not agree with me.

BTW I welcome you to DFI here as you are not ready to open an intro thread. Enjoy your stay here and contribute your views and knowledge with us.

Regards,

Payeng
Yes of course all of this i had under
Point 4. Kashmir (previous post)

This one is quite tricky.
I will explain when i have time .
I have to go for now see you

And Thanks for the Welcome
 
Joined
Feb 16, 2009
Messages
29,797
Likes
48,276
Country flag
Pakistan has to end this fear of an Indian invasion, this fear has made them vulnerable to manipulation by the bigger powers, this manipulation has helped increase Pakistani weaponry and make the higher ranking Army rich, but it has done little for the common man.
The whole world has moved on from their rivalries and we are still stuck in this 60 year old nonsense, I like to remain optimistic about the future ,relations can and will improve we were all once the same people, with improved relations prosperity will come to the region.
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top