EU-Russia Security Panel Could Marginalize USA

[AOE]

It's not that Wilson tilted the Versailles negotiations against the Germans - it's that Wilson's military intervention made possible a lopsided victory that enabled that lopsided treaty.

Perhaps, but what better option did he have other than to come to the aid of the Entente? Just so you know, I thought it was a pointless war.

Why do you think the French were all fawning with praise over the US? And look at how Wilson passed strict laws at home to lock up political opponents for criticizing his adventurist policies. Also, look at how Wilson fundamentally damaged the checks and balances of the US Constitution by creating the US FEDERAL RESERVE to finance his war-mongering abroad.

It's like he drilled a porthole in the side of the American ship of state, to poke a canon out of, for war-fighting purposes -- and then meanwhile water seeps back through that porthole over time, to ultimately sink that same American ship of state in the long run. That's what the creation of the US Federal Reserve has accomplished -- the long-term destruction of the US economy. Wilson and the Atlanticist lobby bear much of the blame for that.

Hard to argue here, and I am against the federal reserve in the US, not to mention the tactics Woodrow Wilson employed. If at any point in history, the US ever came close to being a dictatorship; it was under him.

I just had a thought; perhaps Wilson should have made his involvement in the war on the basis that a different treaty would be signed, under different terms of agreement, and with the Germans and Austro-Hungarians at the negotiations. Then again if this is going to be ideal, perhaps it would have been better for the US to go to war with Russia in 1917 to prevent the Bolsheviks rising to power, sparing the world from the nightmare of communism. That would have been a better outcome than fighting WWI, not to take away from your point or change the subject.

 

[civfanatic]

Woodrow Wilson was an open racist and at the same time a moral interventionist. Those two things make for a very bad combination, and knowing who he was, it always gives me a chill whenever he mentioned that he was going to "make the world safe for democracy".

With that being said, he was probably the only sane negotiator during the proceedings at Versailles. If he had gotten his way, there would have very likely been no Nazi Germany.

 

[civfanatic]

Then again if this is going to be ideal, perhaps it would have been better for the US to go to war with Russia in 1917 to prevent the Bolsheviks rising to power, sparing the world from the nightmare of communism. That would have been a better outcome than fighting WWI, not to take away from your point or change the subject.

America and many other Western countries, along with Japan, did in fact fight Russia. All this did was add fuel to the Bolshevik cause and allowed them to emerge victorious.

The best way to rally a population to your cause is through a foreign invasion. The interventions in Bolshevik Russia in 1918 had the same effect as the Bay of Pigs Invasion in 1961 and the invasion of Vietnam in the 60s. Their only long-term effect was to solidify the regimes in power.

 

[asianobserve]

I don't know but somehow it was always the French who were cozy with Russians except for the WW2 time. This seems to be a pretty heavy move considering that this is a NATO country that is trying to experiment with West-East ties. Germany is not what it was under Hitler. I wonder whether US can prove costly for Germans for taking this decision or not. Germans are self-sufficient in defense, in fact to the extent that they are even now restrained from obtaining nuclear weapons and strategic assets (they're the creators of most modern weapon systems).

US has been good to most NATO countries and I am wondering why is it that Germans are taking this move.

Maybe part of the answer can be found in the background of Ms. Merkel. She is from East Germany, grew up from socialist parents, and was a socialist youth hereself in the East German regime. Of course, later on she joined the almost exploding democray movement. But her childhood views on the West and on NATO I think somehow stuck. She still sees Russia as the partner of her Germany, just like the Socialist days...

 

[asianobserve]

Talking about WW2, tragic as it was it also created the perfect environment for the desmantling of the old imperialist order. With the old imperialist countries in deep economic trouble as a result of the war they were unable to maintain effectively their holds in their dominions, which was very costly.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Russia supplies more than 75% of Germany's energy needs, this is probably more than reason enough.

 

[asianobserve]

Russia supplies more than 75% of Germany's energy needs, this is probably more than reason enough.

In that case then Germany is setting up its dependence to Russia. And judging from the recent experiences with Russia, I don't think that country is reliable when push comes to shove. Normally if it does not gets its way it will shut down your gas supply, or reduce the volume being piped... Russia is still acting like its the old USSR. Maybe this is already in Russia's genes since it has been an imperialist country practically in all its history. One day it will promise to be modern but somehow it always goes back to its old practices...

 

[sanjay]

It's a 2-way street -- Russia knows it can't always be at loggerheads with Europe, and Germany is their partner for better relations with EU.

At the same time, the Germans are tired of always having to bail out the rest of EU at their own expense, and they're seeing a need to develop new options elsewhere, such as with Russia. It's the fault of the rest of Europeans that they've proven so unreliable, including on basic fiscal responsibility. They seem to irrationally expect Germany should always bail them out of the messes they keep making for themselves.

German industrial talent combined with Russian resources and cheaper workforce could be a match made in heaven. This is a partnership that's waited too long.

The Brits probably won't like it - it was their infamous military intelligence which assassinated Rasputin for having suggested Russia send troops to Germany's aid in the Battle of the Bulge. They seem to have a phobia against Russo-German alliance. Oh well, the Brits can't dominate forever.

 

[ejazr]

The EVIL China is looking for BASES JUST like USA

NATO has become MORE important today

If Turkey, Saudi arabia , Iran and China ALL come together and IF and when China sees NATO getting splintered then China will try to have military bases in North Africa and Turkey

Chinese ambitions are huge and If NATO is splintered then China will move in the Mediterranean Sea

Well I wouldn't call China evil, but there is no doubt that they will try to extend their influence in the MENA region.

But Turkey is part of NATO, and Saudi Arabia pretty much has a special relationship with the US. Iran and China may come closer but Turkey and KSA allying with China against the US militarily is pretty much impossible for the near to medium term.

And also China is not seen as a threat by the EU countries. as much as the US sees it as a threat. If China is smart, it will build up relations with the EU and Germany.

NATO is already in trouble because US foots all the bills pretty much. And the reason is simple, there is no expansionist USSR threat.

Here is what Bob Gates, the defence secretary had to say on NATO a few weeks back.

Indeed, if current trends in the decline of European defense capabilities are not halted and reversed, Future U.S. political leaders– those for whom the Cold War was not the formative experience that it was for me – may not consider the return on America's investment in NATO worth the cost.
Transcript of Defense Secretary Gates’s Speech on NATO’s Future - Washington Wire - WSJ

Add to this that Germany despite being the biggest economy continues to balk on and military commitments to the US. For example, in the recent Libya case, Germany hasn't provided any military units.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

In that case then Germany is setting up its dependence to Russia. And judging from the recent experiences with Russia, I don't think that country is reliable when push comes to shove. Normally if it does not gets its way it will shut down your gas supply, or reduce the volume being piped... Russia is still acting like its the old USSR. Maybe this is already in Russia's genes since it has been an imperialist country practically in all its history. One day it will promise to be modern but somehow it always goes back to its old practices...

Russia has done this to smaller Eastern European countries but they have never done this to Germany. Many times it was done for over due balances.

 

[AOE]

America and many other Western countries, along with Japan, did in fact fight Russia. All this did was add fuel to the Bolshevik cause and allowed them to emerge victorious.

The best way to rally a population to your cause is through a foreign invasion. The interventions in Bolshevik Russia in 1918 had the same effect as the Bay of Pigs Invasion in 1961 and the invasion of Vietnam in the 60s. Their only long-term effect was to solidify the regimes in power.

Their contribution to the Russian Civil War was minor, the only two major armies present after WWI was the White and Red armies. The US and their allies were in a perfect position to effect the outcome against the Bolsheviks, but they never went ahead with it; partly thanks to Wilson.

It's also worth noting that many peasants in the countryside who weren't fans of the Tsarists were also equally against the Red army communists, and were subsequently murdered by them. Who needs popular support when you can kill the opposition?

 

[AOE]

Getting back on topic here, while I'm not against Angela Merkel, I hope she is taking note of the situation Germany was in just over 20 years ago, and how they had to overcome Soviet tyranny to which the US played a pivotal role:

 

[Tshering22]

^^ It is always the Russians who're the bad guys, isn't it? NATO--- you can never really get over it.

 

[asianobserve]

^^ It is always the Russians who're the bad guys, isn't it? NATO--- you can never really get over it.

Russia isn't exactly a bad guy it's just mediocre, and a bully. What's the biggest contribution of Russia to the World today? In the World economy? The internet? I might change my mind on Russia...

 

[GPM]

Maybe you're forgetting, the temporary alliance between the USSR (now Russia) and Germany precepitated WW2. USSR's assurance that it will not oppose it (in fact that they will join it) pursuaded Germany to invade Poland, the Soviets on the other side. The rest they say is history.


You want to change the narrative?

Still very lame. Allies declared war on Germany, but not against Russia, though both joined to dismember Poland.

 

[civfanatic]

Their contribution to the Russian Civil War was minor

The presence of over 150,000 troops from 14 nations is minor?

It's also worth noting that many peasants in the countryside who weren't fans of the Tsarists were also equally against the Red army communists, and were subsequently murdered by them. Who needs popular support when you can kill the opposition?

The primary source of support for the Bolsheviks did not come from the peasants, but from the urban workers. The urban workers formed councils called "soviets" which were essentially self-governing political units, and it is from them that the Soviet Union adopted its name.

The other major source of support for the Bolsheviks came from disaffected soldiers of the former Tsarist Army who were opposed to the war in Europe.

 

[civfanatic]

Maybe you're forgetting, the temporary alliance between the USSR (now Russia) and Germany precepitated WW2. USSR's assurance that it will not oppose it (in fact that they will join it) pursuaded Germany to invade Poland, the Soviets on the other side. The rest they say is history.

One of the lamest comments I've read on the Internet.

Over 80% of German casualties in WWII were inflicted by the Red Army. Over 20 million Russians died to defeat Nazi Germany.

America, Brits, and the French didn't do shit in the European Theater.