End of MTA with Russia? Antonov and Reliance signed MoC for India's Multi-role Transport Aircraft

[Bornubus]

The Antonov jet does not fit our requirement ,it is 18 ton lifter while we need a 20 ton lifter with FADEC engine ,the only other jet is C 130 J,,KC 390 or Kawasaki C 2 that can do the trick, but that is if MTA is not renegotiated

What is the utility of Roll in Roll of in C 130 Hercules ?

 

[Bahamut]

Cant't the 2 to lifting capacity be increased? What is required is a bit powerful version of existing engine and bit more stiffer air frame. What say?

Adding two tons need more fuel and off course more weight so changes in structure and avionics but also range is not good for India .I think the range is 1000 km with 18 tons while we need 3000 for 20 tons and the present engine is not strong enough for performance in hot and humid condition .Plus this thing is full of Russian parts whose supply cannot be guarantee .

 

[Gessler]

What is the utility of Roll in Roll of in C 130 Hercules ?

All the details are here :

http://www.lockheedmartin.co.in/con...tions/Wed_1115_Roll-onRoll-Off-Del_Warman.pdf

 

[Bahamut]

Actually, it was Russia who was trying to bully us due to the single vendor situation which we found ourselves in, so it is not necessarily a bad thing if it gets cancelled. The most important reason India wanted a JV for this type of planes was because we wanted to gain experience in the engines, but Russia wasn't willing to share the engine tech with us. They wanted to use the same old engine to make sure no new R&D takes place, while India wanted to build a new engine with more power. Seems like Ukraine acceded to those demand. Serves us well, and serves Russia well. Now they know the cost of acting tough with India. They will lose a good amount of much needed revenue if this deal goes to Ukraine. Russia was planning to use our revenue to build up their own fleet while making sure India gains no vertical enhancement in aircraft building capability. The fact that Russia chose to be so stubborn and arrogant despite being under the desperate pressure of sanctions shows how they take India for granted. Glad Modi squeezed Putin on all the other deals including diamond trade, oil refinement and S400. At the same time the entire HAL cabal was kept out of this, which is a good thing.

Since both country were short of money for this project ,it was decided that all the technology in this plane will being production or near production. , but IAF after the design phase was complete change the requirement to a FADEC engine but no one had the money for a new engine .Russian are planning a more powerful FADEC engine and offered it to us a upgrade but it will take 5 -10 years and about $5 billion dollar ,money which no one had.

 

[Navnit Kundu]

Since both country were short of money for this project

That's a classic Russian trick. They claim they are facing a financial crunch, to get India to fund all their R&D. Once that is done, they refuse to share tech with us. We've been through this cycle innumerable times. If Ukraine transfers us the tech that we needed then it's good enough for us. The PAK FA is going down the same path.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

You really want to buy from Ukraine? You must be living in middle of Sahara!

Have you heard Modi visiting Kiev? Or any exchange of delegations between Kiev and Delhi?

Have you heard of An-32 story. Or the fact that Antonov is bankrupt?

Typing gibberish is easy. Do some research before typing.

An Air Force which is not convinced of Russians will get convinced of Ukrainians? IAF wants European maal, or American if possible.

Ukraine is nowhere on the horizon.

Antonov being bankrupt is a good thing for us. In tech industry buying a bankrupt entity that has technological know how is more convenient than negotiating with strong entity specifically for company like Reliance.
Buying key technologies and hiring experts is the way forward for us and that is what Reliance is doing.

 

[garg_bharat]

Yes sure, for local company they want consistent profitability.

For foreign companies, bankrupt is better.

Mr @Dark Sorrow, india is not a banana republic.

Military deals are long term means you want support for 30+ years for the product.

Both country and company matters. Strong financial condition is preferred.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Anil Ambani is a failure. His group is sliding constantly.

Are you kidding yourself. Reliance ADA group is thriving. Almost all his companies are making profit.
Please refrain from making spurious comments in future.

 

[garg_bharat]

Anil Ambani group has a debt of 1 lakh crore. He is not doing well.

Reliance defence has no experience in aviation, not even component building.

Neither Reliance nor Antonov offer anything of value.

 

[garg_bharat]

Are you kidding yourself. Reliance ADA group is thriving. Almost all his companies are making profit.
Please refrain from making spurious comments in future.

Oh really. Care to give data.
I was once an investor in rel Comm which lost 80% of its value.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Yes sure, for local company they want consistent profitability.

For foreign companies, bankrupt is better.

Mr @Dark Sorrow, india is not a banana republic.

Military deals are long term means you want support for 30+ years for the product.

Both country and company matters. Strong financial condition is preferred.

Is not a mater if about India being a Banana Republic or Antonov being bankrupt.
Its a question of absorbing and assimilating advanced technologies by local company and at the same time creating a local expert scientific and engineering pool so that future generations can carry the way forward.

 

[Bahamut]

That's a classic Russian trick. They claim they are facing a financial crunch, to get India to fund all their R&D. Once that is done, they refuse to share tech with us. We've been through this cycle innumerable times. If Ukraine transfers us the tech that we needed then it's good enough for us. The PAK FA is going down the same path.

Well after the MMCA deal,PAK FA all the other deals going on do you think that IAF can sent $5billion just for a engine development .As for PAK FA we already have a limited ToT ,talks are on to increase it we can talk about it PAK FA thread .
An 178 has lots of Russian parts of which supply cannot be guarantee,plus there better option like Ember KC 390 or Kawasaki C 2 or C 130 which offer better tech,plus An 178 is not suited for us (post 22).

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Anil Ambani group has a debt of 1 lakh crore. He is not doing well.

Reliance defence has no experience in aviation, not even component building.

Neither Reliance nor Antonov offer anything of value.

You are still not getting the point. One of the major reason that Antonov and Reliance are working together because Antonov need money that Reliance can provide and Reliance needs technological know how that Antonov can provide. No company that is well of will offer such services. Such deal will probably end with either Reliance buying Antonov or hiring several design engineers that were previously hired by Antonov .

 

[garg_bharat]

@Dark Sorrow, what Reliance does is its business. It can sure buy Antonov design bureau. However I have not seen any such move.

Aviation is not such an easy business. And MOD needs trustworthy suppliers, not bankrupt suppliers.

You can see the track record of Ukrainian suppliers in their performance. You should search on the Net.

There is only one company of interest - Motor Sich. It would be great if an Indian company buys it out.

Honestly I am fine if India starts building C130 locally under license.

Build C295 and C130 locally and be at peace.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Oh really. Care to give data.
I was once an investor in rel Comm which lost 80% of its value.

So you agree that your view about Reliance is based upon your previous stock dealing with one his company.
The fact remains RADA group is making profit and Reliance Communications still has a fomadible presence in market.

Anil Ambani group has a debt of 1 lakh crore. He is not doing well.

That news is more than a year old. Yet RADA group is still standing strong and making profit.
If you had followed why Anil Ambani group has a debt of 1 lakh crore you would have found out that it was because he went on a shopping spree to purchase foreign companies. In long run he will recover these cost.

 

[Bahamut]

You are still not getting the point. One of the major reason that Antonov and Reliance are working together because Antonov need money that Reliance can provide and Reliance needs technological know how that Antonov can provide. No company that is well of will offer such services. Such deal will probably end with either Reliance buying Antonov or hiring several design engineers that were previously hired by Antonov .

An 178 does not suit our requirement ,I have already stated it although the civilian version can be made in India.

 

[Bornubus]

All the details are here :

http://www.lockheedmartin.co.in/con...tions/Wed_1115_Roll-onRoll-Off-Del_Warman.pdf

All the details are here :

http://www.lockheedmartin.co.in/con...tions/Wed_1115_Roll-onRoll-Off-Del_Warman.pdf

So IAF Hercules can easily carry Arty locating Radars like An tpq 37 and drop it in say Arunanchal or Rajasthan when required.

 

[garg_bharat]

The "success" of Anil Ambani can be gauged by a simple fact - rcom was worth 1 lakh crore when property was divided between two brothers. Now it is worth 14 thousand crore.

Ambani junior is fond of stuff that boosts his ego. The problem is defence field is highly complicated both on tech and management front. It is not an easy field.

Just taking over Pipapav does not massively improve prospects of Ambani.

I wish him well though but my bet is against Antonov.

I researched KMGT yesterday and it seems it will be installed as replacement engine in older frigates. It does look like KMGT works.

An32 will soon on the retirement line. The existing fleet will not last more than ten years, including the upgraded planes.

 

[garg_bharat]

Tata C295 bid may be facing cost issues, and tech transfer issues. But it will get through with some delay. This aircraft will replace both hs.748 and an32.

Tata can easily make 10-12 units of this transport per year.

 

[Neelkanth]

You are still not getting the point. One of the major reason that Antonov and Reliance are working together because Antonov need money that Reliance can provide and Reliance needs technological know how that Antonov can provide. No company that is well of will offer such services. Such deal will probably end with either Reliance buying Antonov or hiring several design engineers that were previously hired by Antonov .

Antonov An-70 was another bird that got grounded because of funding issues. An needs money and we need the tech and the bird. If this goes through nothing better than it