Early Mauryan temples discovered in Hardoi

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MAYURA

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Hellenic influence does not equal "made by Greeks". No one doubts Hellenic influence on Kushans, but the actual quantity of Greeks in that region (Afghanistan, NW India, etc.) was probably quite small. It is much more likely that these coins were made by Indian artisans in Kushan employ using Greek methods.
It was probably very small but you need only few greek minters to produce such coins. Greeks were there in capacity as sculptors, engineers and military advisors not as farmers so whatever few greeks were available were used in these things.

May be they trained indians of that region as noticed by a relative debased nature of kushan gold coins as aping can not produce originality.



The very existence of those good ones shows that Kushans were not far behind Romans in the craftsmanship of their coins.

Both Romans and Han Chinese commented on the great wealth of the Kushan Empire. Since the Kushan Empire existed when both the Romans and the Han were at their height, and incredibly wealthy in their own right, the fact that Romans like Bardesanes and Han Chinese like Gan Ying comment on the wealth of the Kushans in noteworthy.

Oh come on kushana gold coins are nowhere near roman gold coins. i am really frustrated as it is quite clear and if we can not agree on this, there is some deep problem.


those quotes are hearsay and based on travels in central asian regions of kushanas not inland land.

Fa hein too called Gupta india very prosperous and with great administration. ofcourse, he is unreliable as per you.
 

Shaitan

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Egypt , mesopotamia and indus valley have not produced a single philosopher of note or any scientist.

please compare from classical antiquity not from cradle of civilization period in which even average people built civilization.


Is it not fact that if we make overall sum total of achievements in most things in last 2500 years ( we should not take exceptions as even bangladesh can lead for first five minutes in a soccer match with brazil but it can not win the game) we are led to conclusion that


1. white men have achieved most of all races in both classical times and modern era

2. they are followed by chinese who are darker than them but fairer than others

3. chinese are followed by middle easterners who are darker than chinese but fairer than above two types of people

4. middle easterners are followed by indians who are darkest of all among these people



last place is occupied by black africa 90 percent of whom were hunter gatherers till 19th century when whitemen came ( ofcourse white bastards carried too much atrocity on them )



Do you not see any pattern?


No I dont.


The Greeks and Romans were darker than Europeans up north who were barbarians. Were they smarter??


Seriously, Mesopotamia and Egypt were creating complex civilizations, religions, art work WAYY before Greeks or Romans.
 

Shaitan

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The people making all the insane monuments, complex religion/iconography, etc, etc. above are dark skinned people. They were WAAAAAAAAAAAAYY ahead of their time.


Romans and the Greeks would shit their pants if they saw what the Egyptians were doing.
 

MAYURA

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No I dont.


The Greeks and Romans were darker than Europeans up north who were barbarians. Were they smarter??


Seriously, Mesopotamia and Egypt were creating complex civilizations, religions, art work WAYY before Greeks or Romans.
I am still awake to reply to you and civafanatic , only few like you have historical knowledge.


Perhaps you did not read my post clearly.

It is natural that areas with well watered lands will start civilization but they fail to do anything for us. An aristotle is far worthy for humanity than 1000s of giza pyramids .


as for north europeans being fair skinned, it is within the white race.


a greek or italian are white anyway and i talked about last 2500 years not just some isolated pieces.

Iraq was ahead of greece in pre classical antiquity era which does not hold much as you will realize that in that era only beginnings were made.

It is a fact that darker you are lesser are chances of you being smarter though there are exceptions.


we can see this in india too where relatively fair skinned North indians have outperformed south indians in last 2000 years. current 20 years are an aberration and just exception.
 

pmaitra

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Listing of Kushan royal tamgas

The royal emblem or tamga indicates who was the king or emperor under whose rule a particular coin was struck.

Regarding Buddha, as I had guessed in my previous post (see at the bottom of this post), I was correct. Here are the Greek script and the meanings:

Representation of entities from Greek mythology and Hellenistic syncretism are:

Ηλιος (Helios), Ηφαηστος (Hephaistos), Σαληνη (Selene), Ανημος (Anemos). Further, the coins of Huvishka also portray the demi-god erakilo Heracles, and the Egyptian god sarapo Sarapis.

The Indic entities represented on coinage include:
Βοδδο (boddo, Buddha)
Μετραγο Βοδδο (metrago boddo, bodhisattava Maitreya)
Mαασηνo (maaseno, Mahasena)
Σκανδo koμαρo (skando komaro, Skanda Kumara)
þακαμανο Βοδδο (shakamano boddho, Shakyamuni Buddha)

The Iranic entities depicted on coinage include:
Αρδοχþο (ardoxsho, Ashi Vanghuhi)
Aþαειχþo (ashaeixsho, Asha Vahishta)
Αθþο (athsho, Atar)
Φαρρο (pharro, Khwarenah)
Λροοασπο (lrooaspa, Drvaspa)
Μαναοβαγο, (manaobago, Vohu Manah)
Μαο (mao, Mah)
Μιθρο, Μιιρο, Μιορο, Μιυρο (mithro and variants, Mithra)
Μοζδοοανο (mozdooano, Mazda *vana "Mazda the victorious?")
Νανα, Ναναια, Ναναϸαο (variations of pan-Asiatic nana, Sogdian nny, in a Zoroastrian context Aredvi Sura Anahita)
Οαδο (oado Vata)
Oαxþo (oaxsho, "Oxus")
Ooρoμoζδο (ooromozdo, Ahura Mazda)
Οραλαγνο (orlagno, Verethragna)
Τιερο (tiero, Tir)

Additionally,
Οηϸο (oesho), long considered to represent Indic Shiva,[34] but more recently identified as Avestan Vayu conflated with Shiva.[35][36]
Two copper coins of Huvishka bear a 'Ganesa' legend, but instead of depicting the typical theriomorphic figure of Ganesha, have a figure of an archer holding a full-length bow with string inwards and an arrow. This is typically a depiction of Rudra, but in the case of these two coins is generally assumed to represent Shiva.

Source: Kushan Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It could be very well a genuine coin. If written in Greek alphabet, BODDO becomes ΒΟΔΔΟ.



What I used: Type Greek.com
 

Shaitan

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This is what pale Scandinavian dudes were doing in the 8th century.



Damn, that's really cute.


Matter a fact. Most of the lightest skinned people in Europe took much of their ideas, architecture, etc. from darkener southerns.

as for north europeans being fair skinned, it is within the white race.
No such thing existed. Tell that concept to a ancient Roman or a Greek they'll laugh at you.
 

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The people making all the insane monuments, complex religion/iconography, etc, etc. above are dark skinned people. They were WAAAAAAAAAAAAYY ahead of their time.


Romans and the Greeks would shit their pants if they saw what the Egyptians were doing.

sir you are posting from an era when egypt's largest city housed some 30,000 people whereas Rome had one million population at peak.


I am perfectly aware of egytian arts and they are impressive but

please make an analysis of last 2500 years and tell me if my pattern is wrong.

I mean as a whole not some shit as vijaynagar was ahead of norway and such crap. when people call germans taller than indians they mean on average.
in order to see average in history we should see a longer time period and that too when all had entered in iron age thus level playing.
 

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we can see this in india too where relatively fair skinned North indians have outperformed south indians in last 2000 years. current 20 years are an aberration and just exception.

Is this a joke???

Historically it's the Eastern Indians and Deccanese that were the imperial Indians. Northerners were ALWAYS getting screwed over and over and over again.
 
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MAYURA

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This is what pale Scandinavian dudes were doing in the 8th century.



Damn, that's really cute.


Matter a fact. Most of the lightest skinned people in Europe took much of their ideas, architecture, etc. from darkener southerns.



No such thing existed. Tell that concept to a ancient Roman or a Greek they'll laugh at you.
You are missing the larger picture.
whether greeks or roman called them white is irrelevant and both are of white race and many indians can not tell apart who is english and who is italian.

My theory is based on average performance of races not isolated ones like you are posting.


there are many americans in your US shorter than Pratibha patil does that mean that indian women are as tall as american men?
 

Shaitan

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in order to see average in history we should see a longer time period and that too when all had entered in iron age thus level playing.

We can look at the average. So lets see what the Northern Europeans, who are the lightest did through out history. Before the colonial age. What complex religions did they form? What empires did they build? What type of architecture did they create? By you're logic they're supposed to be a head of the game more so than these darker skinned people.

Dont give me this white race crap, no such thing existed. If you were to tell Julius Caesar that Romans and Gauls were a part of one group called the white race, he'll pimp smack you.


whether greeks or roman called them white is irrelevant and both are of white race and many indians can not tell apart who is english and who is italian.

There are white people that cant tell the different between a Punjabi and a Bengali too, and??
 
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MAYURA

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Is this a joke???

Historically it's the Eastern Indians and Deccanese that were the imperial Indians. Northerners were ALWAYS getting screwed over and over and over again.
It is not a joke as the only two great empires of india are Maurya and gupta and i am talking about overall achievement in science, literature arts etc.


please do not start your chola, pala nonsense as they never reached south like maurya and gupta did.

BTW, ruling races in india are of same complexion. A king of maharashtra might be as fair skinned as a punjabi even when marathis are very dark.


Take the examples of Orissa and bengal where average population is darker but kshatriyas of these states are as fair as punjabis.
 

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BTW, ruling races in india are of same complexion. A king of maharashtra might be as fair skinned as a punjabi even when marathis are very dark.
Who fed you this lie??

These are the oldest surviving paintings in India. Matter a fact they're in Maharashtra.




A King and his women, 2nd-1st BC









Depictions of princes, 4th-6th century AD

Ancient India isnt fair and lovely Bollywood. They dont give a ---- about skin tone.
 
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MAYURA

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There are white people that cant tell the different between a Punjabi and a Bengali too, and??
Have you seen punjabi jats and illegal immigrants from bangladesh coming into india and then working as rickshawpullers?

even a blind can tell the difference.


We can look at the average. So lets see what the Northern Europeans, who are the lightest did through out history. Before the colonial age. What complex religions did they form? What empires did they build? What type of architecture did they create? By you're logic they're supposed to be a head of the game more so than these darker skinned people.

Dont give me this white race crap, no such thing existed. If you were to tell Julius Caesar that Romans and Gauls were a part of one group called the white race, he'll pimp smack you.
hahahaha. Do not get angry as it is painful but reality. I am myself much darker than many south indians so this is not personal.

I do not care for julius and other Roman bastards . White race is a reality as differences between a spanish and a norwegian is too less and that only shows the intra race distinction. So you need to disprove my assertion that in last 2500 years white men have been at top.


North europeans have in last 500 years done things humanity had not done in last 1 million years.

I and you can communicate only because of north europeans so on this count too you are proving my point.
 

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Have you seen punjabi jats and illegal immigrants from bangladesh coming into india and then working as rickshawpullers?

even a blind can tell the difference.
Have you seen Italians/Greeks and Scandinavians/Northern Europeans? I can tell the difference.

And Europeans can EASILY tell the difference.

hahahaha. Do not get angry as it is painful but reality. I am myself much darker than many south indians so this is not personal.

I do not care for julius and other Roman bastards . White race is a reality as differences between a spanish and a norwegian is too less and that only shows the intra race distinction. So you need to disprove my assertion that in last 2500 years white men have been at top.


North europeans have in last 500 years done things humanity had not done in last 1 million years.

I and you can communicate only because of north europeans so on this count too you are proving my point.
I'm not getting personal. It's something that's not supported by history. The first sophisticated civilizations, religions, etc, etc, etc. were made by dark skinned people.

Groups who were the lightest skinned, were in limbo for god knows how long before they became stable. So, doesn't make sense.

I and you can communicate only because of north europeans so on this count too you are proving my point.

That's amazing right? They(Northern Europeans) are humanities underdog story. <<<<<< Reality.
 
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pmaitra

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Here is a picture from the inside of the Indian Parliament, with representation from all over the country (less than quorum is visible).



I think we should leave it up to the beholder whether he sees them as similar or different.
 

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I am still awake to reply to you and civafanatic , only few like you have historical knowledge.
Perhaps you did not read my post clearly.

It is natural that areas with well watered lands will start civilization but they fail to do anything for us. An aristotle is far worthy for humanity than 1000s of giza pyramids .
as for north europeans being fair skinned, it is within the white race.

greek or italian are white anyway and i talked about last 2500 years not just some isolated pieces.iraq was ahead of greece in pre classical antiquity era which does not hold much as you will realize that in that era only beginnings were made.

It is a fact that darker you are lesser are chances of you being smarter though there are exceptions.

we can see this in india too where relatively fair skinned North indians have outperformed south indians in last 2000 years. current 20 years are an aberration and just exception.
Wow, dont know what to say here - are you serious ?
 

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I agree with broad idea but chandragupta vikramadity did issue some great silver coins though not plentiful as kushana silver and copper coins because of less international trade in gupta age.
Forget the Kushans. The amount of coins found belonging to him is small compared even to regional satraps like Nahapana.

To some extent yes but there are some exceptional cases as coinage also depends on rulers and his stock of metals.
India never was a great source of metals. In the Kushan age, much of the metal used in making coins was imported. The Kushans acquired gold from Scythia and Transoxiana and silver and copper from Afghanistan. They also imported massive quantities of bullion from the Roman Empire in the course of their commercial dealings. The equivalent of 500 million sestertii worth of gold was being imported into India in the 1st century C.E. from the Roman Empire (see Intercourse between India and the Western World by H.G. Rawlinson, pg.103).

Obviously, these trade networks declined or ceased to exist following the collapse of the Kushan Empire in the 3rd century C.E., which meant much less international trade and much less bullion flowing into India. This in turn led to reduced coinage, which meant it was more difficult for merchants and others to carry out commercial dealings, while the collapse of the Kushan and Han imperial authority also meant it was more dangerous to transverse the Silk Road. All of this led to a vicious cycle in which trade, commodity production, and economic prosperity declined, and India became a more closed economy based around closed, self-sufficient villages.


from 3rd century to 7th century china does not have much coinage yet literary sources do not talk of any decrease in revenue. ( paper money was not there)
China in the 3rd-7th centuries was politically divided and was being overrun by various barbarians, from the Xiongnu to Tibetans to the Toba. There was no central authority to issue large numbers of coins or promote trade.

Yavanjataka was written in 269 ad a time when mainland india had already seen Kushanas decline.
No, Yavanajataka was written in Saka 71, i.e. 149 C.E. by Yavanesvara. The year 269 is simply when Sphujidhvaja published his version of the text.


greek works had some impact on astronomy but almost none on mathematics.


Varahmihira just calls them yavana barbarians but to be adored for expertise in astronomy as they really were. With Varahmihira , indians acquired far greater precision in some of the techniques of astronomy.

even bulk of sino indian contact started during gupta and post gupta period.

buddhism in china was limited during kushana period but in gupta age, it got new impetus.
Indian mathematics were seldom practically applied and were largely useless for the development of the material civilization. It was all abstract. It was Persians and especially Europeans who truly applied Indian mathematics and made the most out of the Indic numeral system. India was great at abstract mathematics but its engineering abilities were second-rate. Tell me what practical applications of these mathematics were made during Gupta period or later? What great inventions were made that could compare to Chinese or Greek inventions, let alone those of Renaissance Europe? I think Indian astronomy might have led to more precise calendars, which in turn led to more consistent agricultural yields. Besides this, I don't know what applications Indian astronomy was used for.

During the Scientific Revolution, European advances in higher-level mathematics (especially calculus) led to great advances in military engineering and improved artillery and fortifications. The English military engineer Benjamin Robins (who actually worked for the EITC at one point) in his book New Principles in Gunnery applied Newtonian physics and mathematics to military science, viz. calculations on the force of gunpowder, projectile velocity, air resistance, etc. This application of mathematics, physics, and science to the battlefield was a major factor in the rise of European military dominance from the 18th century onwards.

What were the great brahmins of Gupta age doing with their knowledge of mathematics, actually?
 

MAYURA

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Who fed you this lie??

These are the oldest surviving paintings in India. Matter a fact they're in Maharashtra.




A King and his women, 2nd-1st BC









Depictions of princes, 4th-6th century AD

Ancient India isnt fair and lovely Bollywood. They dont give a ---- about skin tone.
Compare kshatriya castes of maharashtra with mahars and see the difference.


I will not assume that ancient indians were africans just because of ajanta paintings.

In india too we have pattern as in social hierarchy we see brahmins who are fairest on top followed by slight darker kshatriyas who are fairer than OBC castes and OBCs are fairer and ahead of ex untouchable castes.


Now do not tell me that SCs were kings of that time but brahmins were labourers.


you specialize in art history but i specialize in history and in case of brahmins we have clans and thus we are perfectly sure about how ancient brahmins looked.
 
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