Early Humans Settled India Before Europe

pmaitra

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Even if it was an invasion (which i highly doubt...it was more like migration to indus then surrounding parts) it still has nothing to do with europe since aryans weren't europeans per se.

They were people living in northern iran near caspian sea and caucasus mountains who later migrated to europe, central asia, and northern India.
You are right. The true 'Aryans' in this context are the Caucasians and they care called Caucasians because they originated in the Caucasian Mountains (between Black Sea and Caspian Sea, dividing Asia and Europe and marking the southern borders of the Russian Federation) and then due to depletion of resources and population explosion, migrated out.

One must note, however, that there is a reference to breaking of dams by Indra (the leader's post, aka the leader of Gods, occupied by different Gods at different times; something like the post of the Chief of Army Staff or President, if you will) after invoking the God Varuna (God of rain, or you can interpret is the God that causes torrent and heavy flow of water) in the Rig Veda. Hence, it has been argued that the 'Aryans', after reaching the Indus Valley Civilisation, was at awe by seeing it's splendour and decided that they couldn't defeat such a mighty civilisation in a conventional confrontation, so decided the destroy the dams the Indus Valley Civilisation people had built upstream in the tributaries of the Indus to flood it so that it was easy for them to defeat the latter.

Again, this is still a debated topic. However, gradual migration over a period of time, causing excessive pressure on available resources, which probably led to a consequential conflict at one point, was primarily responsible for the Indus Valley Civilisation's demise, or so it seems to be the most plausible reason.

An 'Aryan', however, have also been defined as a 'noble person'.
 
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S.A.T.A

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Western scholarship generally speaking ,particularly in the field of Indology,has lacked the fortitude to set aside its inherent hubris in interpreting non western cultural traditions(textual or otherwise)...Even giants in their field like Muller or Griffith have been unable to immune themselves from reading eastern texts and its narrative from the non Semitic style of rendering.Its still baffling why western scholarship refuses to treat a mythical corpus as it is and not introduce historical narrative where none exists.

Sir Mortimer Wheeler "Indra stand accused" is a classic case of this inherent flaw in dubious scholarly interpretation leading towards a highly speculative reconstruct of a putative historical event(derived from wrong inference of primary data) and subsequently that flawed narrative becomes infallible academic dogma.
 

maomao

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Yes India according Vedas is called Jambu-dweep (or Jambu Island), I used to wonder why at every occasion or wedding the Pandits would call India an island? Then I did some research and realized India was actually an Island long back and that is why Vedantics insists India was an Island long back, could it be Vedas which were passed on orally, are as old as the Indian Island itself?
 

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The Aryan Invasion Theory is False - Genetic Evidence

No trace of "demographic disruption" in the North-West of the subcontinent between 4500 and 800 BCE; this negates the possibility of any massive intrusion, by so-called Indo-Aryans or other populations, during that period.
Deep late Pleistocene genetic link between contemporary Europeans and Indians, provided by the mtDNA haplogroup U, which encompasses roughly a fifth of mtDNA lineages of both populations. Our estimate for this split [between Europeans and Indians] is close to the suggested time for the peopling of Asia and the first expansion of anatomically modern humans in Eurasia and likely pre-dates their spread to Europe."
Haplogroup U, being common to North Indian and "Caucasoid" populations, was found in tribes of eastern India such as the Lodhas and Santals, which would not be the case if it had been introduced through Indo-Aryans. Such is also the case of the haplogroup M, another marker frequently mentioned in the early literature as evidence of an invasion: in reality, haplogroup M occurs with a high frequency, averaging about 60%, across most Indian population groups, irrespective of geographical location of habitat. Tribal populations have higher frequencies of haplogroup M than caste populations."
- U.S. anthropologists Kenneth Kennedy, John Lukacs and Brian Hemphill.

Migrations into India "did occur, but rarely from western Eurasian populations." There are low frequencies of the western Eurasian mtDNA types in both southern and northern India. Thus, the 'caucasoid' features of south Asians may best be considered 'pre-caucasoid' — that is, part of a diverse north or north-east African gene pool that yielded separate origins for western Eurasian and southern Asian populations over 50,000 years ago.
- U.S. biological anthropologist Todd R. Disotell.

There is a fundamental unity of mtDNA lineages in India, in spite of the extensive cultural and linguistic diversity, pointing to a relatively small founding group of females in India. Most of the mtDNA diversity observed in Indian populations is between individuals within populations; there is no significant structuring of haplotype diversity by socio-religious affiliation, geographical location of habitat or linguistic affiliation.
- Scientists Susanta Roychoudhury and thirteen others studying 644 samples of mtDNA from ten Indian ethnic groups.

mtDNA haplogroup "M" common to India (with a frequency of 60%), Central and Eastern Asia (40% on average), and even to American Indians; however, this frequency drops to 0.6% in Europe, which is "inconsistent with the 'general Caucasoidness' of Indians." This shows, once again, that "the Indian maternal gene pool has come largely through an autochthonous history since the Late Pleistocene." U haplogroup frequency 13% in India, almost 14% in North-West Africa, and 24% from Europe to Anatolia. "Indian and western Eurasian haplogroup U varieties differ profoundly; the split has occurred about as early as the split between the Indian and eastern Asian haplogroup M varieties. The data show that both M and U exhibited an expansion phase some 50,000 years ago, which should have happened after the corresponding splits." In other words, there is a genetic connection between India and Europe, but a far more ancient one than was thought.
If one were to extend methodology used to suggest an Aryan invasion based on Y-Dna statistics to populations of Eastern and Southern India, one would be led to an exactly opposite result: "the straightforward suggestion would be that both Neolithic (agriculture) and Indo-European languages arose in India and from there, spread to Europe." The authors do not defend this thesis, but simply guard against "misleading interpretations" based on limited samples and faulty methodology.
The Chenchu tribe is genetically close to several castes, there is a "lack of clear distinction between Indian castes and tribes.

- Twenty authors headed by Kivisild - Archaeogenetics of Europe - 2000.

"Language families present today in India, such as Indo-European, Dravidic and Austro-Asiatic, are all much younger than the majority of indigenous mtDNA lineages found among their present-day speakers at high frequencies. It would make it highly speculative to infer, from the extant mtDNA pools of their speakers, whether one of the linguistically defined groups in India should be considered more 'autochthonous' than any other in respect of its presence in the subcontinent."

- Mait Metspalu and fifteen co-authors analyzing 796 Indian and 436 Iranian mtDNAs. 2001.

Geneticist Toomas Kivisild led a study (2003) in which comparisons of the diversity of R1a1 (R-M17) haplogroup in Indian, Pakistani, Iranian, Central Asian, Czech and Estonian populations. The study showed that the diversity of R1a1 in India, Pakistan, and Iran, is higher than in Czechs (40%), and Estonians[12].
Kivisild came to the conclusion that "southern and western Asia might be the source of this haplogroup": "Haplogroup R1a, previously associated with the putative Indo-Aryan invasion, was found at its highest frequency in Punjab but also at a relatively high frequency (26%) in the Chenchu tribe. This finding, together with the higher R1a-associated short tandem repeat diversity in India and Iran compared with Europe and central Asia, suggests that southern and western Asia might be the source of this haplogroup".[12]
"Given the geographic spread and STR diversities of sister clades R1 and R2, the latter of which is restricted to India, Pakistan, Iran, and southern central Asia, it is possible that southern and western Asia were the source for R1 and R1a differentiation. "

- Kivilsid - 2003


Based on 728 samples covering 36 Indian populations, it announced in its very title how its findings revealed a "Minor Genetic Influence of Central Asian Pastoralists," i.e. of the Indo-Aryans, and stated its general agreement with the previous study. For instance, the authors rejected the identification of some Y-DNA genetic markers with an "Indo-European expansion," an identification they called "convenient but incorrect ... overly simplistic." To them, the subcontinent's genetic landscape was formed much earlier than the dates proposed for an Indo-Aryan immigration: "The influence of Central Asia on the pre-existing gene pool was minor. ... There is no evidence whatsoever to conclude that Central Asia has been necessarily the recent donor and not the receptor of the R1a lineages."
"Dravidian" authorship of the Indus-Sarasvati civilization rejected indirectly, since it noted, "Our data are also more consistent with a peninsular origin of Dravidian speakers than a source with proximity to the Indus...." They found, in conclusion, "overwhelming support for an Indian origin of Dravidian speakers."
The frequencies of R2 seems to mirror the frequencies of R1a (i.e. both lineages are strong and weak in the same social and linguistic subgroups). This may indicate that both R1a and R2 moved into India at roughly the same time or co-habited, although more research is needed. R2 is very rare in Europe.

Sanghamitra Sengupta, L. Cavalli-Sforza, Partha P. Majumder, and P. A. Underhill. - 2006.


"The sharing of some Y-chromosomal haplogroups between Indian and Central Asian populations is most parsimoniously explained by a deep, common ancestry between the two regions, with diffusion of some Indian-specific lineages northward."
"The Y-chromosomal data consistently suggest a largely South Asian origin for Indian caste communities and therefore argue against any major influx, from regions north and west of India, of people associated either with the development of agriculture or the spread of the Indo-Aryan language family."
"Southern castes and tribals are very similar to each other in their Y-chromosomal haplogroup compositions." As a result, "it was not possible to confirm any of the purported differentiations between the caste and tribal pools," a conclusion that directly clashes with the Aryan invasion theory which purports that male European Aryans chased tribal adivasis and aboriginals down south.

Sanghamitra Sahoo, T. Kivisild and V. K. Kashyap. - 2006.


When Homo sapiens migrated out of Africa, he first reached South-West Asia around 75,000 BP, and from here, went on to other parts of the world. In simple terms, except for Africans, all humans have ancestors in the North-West of the Indian peninsula. In particular, one migration started around 50,000 BP towards the Middle East and Western Europe: "indeed, nearly all Europeans — and by extension, many Americans — can trace their ancestors to only four mtDNA lines, which appeared between 10,000 and 50,000 years ago and originated from South Asia."

-Lluís Quintana-Murci,Vincent Macaulay,Stephen Oppenheimer,Michael Petraglia,and their associates

"For me and for Toomas Kivisild, South Asia is logically the ultimate origin of M17(Y-DNA Haplogroup R1a, associated with the male Aryan invasion theory) and his ancestors; and sure enough we find the highest rates and greatest diversity of the M17 line in Pakistan, India, and eastern Iran, and low rates in the Caucasus. M17 is not only more diverse in South Asia than in Central Asia, but diversity characterizes its presence in isolated tribal groups in the south, thus undermining any theory of M17 as a marker of a 'male Aryan invasion' of India. One average estimate for the origin of this line in India is as much as 51,000 years. All this suggests that M17 could have found his way initially from India or Pakistan, through Kashmir, then via Central Asia and Russia, before finally coming into Europe."

-Stephen Oppenheimer

A (2009) study headed by geneticist Swarkar Sharma, collated information for 2809 Indians (681 Brahmins, and 2128 tribals and schedule castes). The results showed "no consistent pattern of the exclusive presence and distribution of Y-haplogroups to distinguish the higher-most caste, Brahmins, from the lower-most ones, schedule castes and tribals". Brahmins from West Bengal showed the highest frequency (72.22%) of Y-haplogroups R1a1* hinting that it may have been a founder lineage for this caste group. The authors found it significant that the Saharia tribe of Madhya Pradesh had not only 28.07% R1a1, but also 22.8% R1a*, out of 57 people, with such a high percentage of R1a* never having been found before. Based on STR variance the estimated age of R1a* in India was 18,478 years, and for R1a1 it was 13,768 years.
In its conclusions the study proposed "the autochthonous origin and tribal links of Indian Brahmins" as well as "the origin of R1a1* ... in the Indian subcontinent".
S. Sharma, argued for an Indian origin of R1a1 lineage among Brahmins, by pointing out the highest incidence of R1a*, ancestral clade to R1a1, among Kashmiri Pandits (Brahmins) and Saharias, an Indian tribe.
- Sharma et al 2009

"This paper rewrites history... there is no north-south divide."
"There is no truth to the Aryan-Dravidian theory as they came hundreds or thousands of years after the ancestral north and south Indians had settled in India."
The study analysed 500,000 genetic markers across the genomes of 132 individuals from 25 diverse groups from 13 states. All the individuals were from six-language families and traditionally upper and lower castes and tribal groups. "The genetics proves that castes grew directly out of tribe-like organizations during the formation of the Indian society."
"Impossible to distinguish between castes and tribes since their genetics proved they were not systematically different."
The present-day Indian population is a mix of ancient north and south bearing the genomic contributions from two distinct ancestral populations - the Ancestral North Indian (ANI) and the Ancestral South Indian (ASI).
"The initial settlement took place 65,000 years ago in the Andamans and in ancient south India around the same time, which led to population growth in this part,'' said Thangarajan. He added, "At a later stage, 40,000 years ago, the ancient north Indians emerged which in turn led to rise in numbers here. But at some point of time, the ancient north and the ancient south mixed, giving birth to a different set of population. And that is the population which exists now and there is a genetic relationship between the population within India."
The study also helps understand why the incidence of genetic diseases among Indians is different from the rest of the world. Singh said that 70% of Indians were burdened with genetic disorders and the study could help answer why certain conditions restricted themselves to one population. For instance, breast cancer among Parsi women, motor neuron diseases among residents of Tirupati and Chittoor, or sickle cell anaemia among certain tribes in central India and the North-East can now be understood better, said researchers.
The researchers, who are now keen on exploring whether Eurasians descended from ANI, find in their study that ANIs are related to western Eurasians, while the ASIs do not share any similarity with any other population across the world.
Thangaraj and Singh at a press conference.

"Reconstructing Indian Population History"
- David Reich, Kumarasamy Thangaraj, Nick Patterson, Alkes L. Price & Lalji Singh
- 2009

http://sites.google.com/site/r2dnainfo/R2-Home/Aryans/reasons-why-the-aryan-invasion-theory
 
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S.A.T.A

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jambu Dwipa is part of the Hindu tradition which among others describe how our ancients perceived their immediate environment,a sort of mythical cosmology to describe our very finite presence amidst the infinite.Like i mentioned in my previous post it will not be proper over interpret any tradition or to derive logical conclusion from them.Moreover the Gondwanaland land hypo presupposes the existence of even the most primitive of primates,where is the scope for any oral tradition to be co-terminus with the proposed range of super continents
 

Tshering22

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Frankly, the best way to describe the Aryan Invasion Theory is to call it a 'debated' issue. I am not saying that the Aryans indeed invaded; all I am saying is that it could be a possibility and at the moment, I, personally, am ambivalent.

Let us put forward the arguments to support as well as oppose this theory. That, I think is a worthwhile thing to do than to simply pass conclusions.
There's no word called Aryan first of all in Sanskrit. I took up the language as compulsory after 8th standard over others so I would know it even if I've not done it beyond. "Arya" in Sanskrit is noble. Just as we "Hindi-ize" some words like "Amerikeeyon" etc, the term 'Aryan' is an anglicized version of the term Arya. The name Aryan today that most men have in India, is the true Sanskrit interpretation means a man who's noble.

The word can be used only individually and not describe a "race" of super beings with perfect looks and perfect everything. This was a racist superiority doctrine that the colonials planned and developed so as to break the backbone of Indian culture and way of life because our culture and way of life was the source of our invincibility. This made us believe everything European and Western is better.

Hitler later propagated the same nonsense to extreme levels and even got Fars or today's Iran involved in that to call themselves as superior "Aryans". Trust me. I have archaeologist family friends who've burnt through this topic and even German scientists today falsify Aryan theory. Instead, they claim that Europeans came from Indian race!!! I don't have the link for it now but I shall ask a friend of mine. She's European herself and has some very good evidences.
 

S.A.T.A

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The term 'Arya' conceivably was an epithet assumed by a person or individuals of certain rank and standing in the Vedic society,however its certain than subsequent to the Vedic phase the term 'Arya' began to used as a geographical expression and that of the ethnicites confined to that geography,post Samhita texts clearly refer to the ganga-jamuna doab region as Aryavarta (realm of Arya) indicating the term may have in later times assumed a geo-ethnic marker.however its true that the term,at least in the vedic corpus, has no racial or ethnic association.
 

The Messiah

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Has anyone seen videos ive posted ? it will give better picture of events.
 

W.G.Ewald

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Look at the universities where the literature cited in this thread derives. All in UK, Germany and US. What is the state of anthropological research at Indian universities? For all the bashing of Europeans I see on DFI, I have to wonder why their research is not challenged.
 

The Messiah

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Look at the universities where the literature cited in this thread derives. All in UK, Germany and US. What is the state of anthropological research at Indian universities? For all the bashing of Europeans I see on DFI, I have to wonder why their research is not challenged.
Unlike what you might think. The west isn't bashed for everything under the sun.

Check out the aryan thread to see challenges on western myths :)
 

W.G.Ewald

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