Early Humans Settled India Before Europe

Discussion in 'Military History' started by The Messiah, Oct 25, 2010.

  1. The Messiah

    The Messiah Bow Before Me! Elite Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2010
    Messages:
    10,788
    Likes Received:
    4,552
    Make of it what you want.

    So all modern humans came to India from africa -> middle east -> India. Some nutters wont be pleased with that since only invaders come from there!!
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2010
  2.  
  3. civfanatic

    civfanatic Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2009
    Messages:
    4,562
    Likes Received:
    2,526
    Location:
    తెలంగాణ
    I remember watching a documentary that said the genomes of some South Indians around Madurai closely matched the genomes of Australian aboriginies.

    Apparently, the Indian Ocean was much smaller 50,000 years ago than it was now, and it was possible for the early humans to walk along the "coast" from South India to Australia.

    Interesting stuff.
     
  4. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Messages:
    31,640
    Likes Received:
    17,125
    Location:
    EST, USA
    It is true that the land masses were clustered together and later spread out in different directions. The following image shows the Gondwanaland and Laurasia as it was 200 million years ago.

    [​IMG]

    Modern humans originated circa. 200,000 years ago. Hence, the oceans then and since then were not too different from what they are now. Nevertheless, one needs to keep the possibility open that humans themselves originated from something, and they in turn from something. So, it could also be possible that maybe there were some animal or species in these continents when they were together or closer and then they got isolated and independently evolved into modern humans of different races.

    Caveat: I am no evolutionist, so I could be entirely wrong. Yet, this concept of 'all humans originated from Africa' sounds like a subtle confirmation of the Biblical creationist theory; and I remain skeptical.

    If the image does not show up, please use this link: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Laurasia-Gondwana.svg
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2010
  5. civfanatic

    civfanatic Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2009
    Messages:
    4,562
    Likes Received:
    2,526
    Location:
    తెలంగాణ
    Well, you have to keep in mind that during the period around the Ice Age, water levels were a lot lower than they are today. This is what made human immigration to places like North America, Australia, Indonesia, and the British Isles possible.

    Later on, the water levels rose and the current landforms as we know them were created.
     
  6. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Messages:
    31,640
    Likes Received:
    17,125
    Location:
    EST, USA
    Good point.

    As I understand, the last Ice Age was 200,000 years ago. This is the approximate time when modern humans came into being. So, it is quite possible that many pre-humans (i.e. homo something but not homo sapiens) probably migrated to different regions and when at the end of the Ice Age the water levels rose, humans evolved out of these homo somethings into modern humans in these isolated continents independent of their cousins in other continents.

    Hence, there are loop-holes in the theory that all humans originated from Africa.
     
  7. navida

    navida Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2010
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    6
    According to NGC, the tribes in Nilgiris in Tamil Nadu are the closest ansistors of the Africans outside of Africa and the Jarawa tribes of Andaman are the earliest evolved human beings in the world.
     
  8. The Messiah

    The Messiah Bow Before Me! Elite Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2010
    Messages:
    10,788
    Likes Received:
    4,552
    All humans are 99.9% genetically similar throughout the world.

    Yet people seem hell bent on dividing themselves on the basis of caste, religion, skin colour etc
     
  9. RAM

    RAM The southern Man Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Messages:
    2,242
    Likes Received:
    210
    Location:
    Bharath
    With due respect to ALL member's various views …


    The Course of human evolution is described as a sequence of short, abrupt Or punctuations ,separated by long period of stasis and this Model is called as punctuated Equilibrium.Human phylogeny or the family tree of the hominin species according to current hypothesis happen around 2.5 million years ago. Infact its believed that first bipedal Hominis appear to have emerged in Africa from an ape ancestory in late Miocene, between 8 and 6 million years ago.Between 2 million and 1.8 /1.7 million years ago the first hominins that appear to show marked encephalization (brain expansion) are found.

    And
    Time line suggests

    In Later stone age/upper paleolithic stage Homo neandrethalensis+ Homo sapiens +Homo erectus existed <<<and its ascendants(Middlestone age 1- 2million years <<<<<Homo Heidelbergenis ,Homo ergaster,Homohabilis,Homo ergaster, Homo rudolfenesis ,Australopithecus variants are recorded to be existed by the archaeologists .

    Homo Heidelbergensis species name as referred in the parent article derived from a 5 million old Mandible(lower jaw) found in a quarry on 1907 at Mauer ,near Heidelberg Germany. As per the current western texts/school of thought this species spread from Africa to Europe initially but very little evidence to S Asia .

    This western model school of thought contradicts petraglia’s theory in
    theprimary article. However Human Dispersion may have happened as he opined from Africa>>Europe>>ASIA as there are lot of models of Human dispersion theories exist between the anthropologists/archaeologists themselves and the ensued arrival of modern H sapiens may have challenged the existence of their Ancestors lately .




    (Folks..Im just a novice to this topic and kindly bear for any aberrations-however very keen to heed other's views.Thnx to Ernesto for bringing up a good article/discussion point.)
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2010
    W.G.Ewald likes this.
  10. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Messages:
    31,640
    Likes Received:
    17,125
    Location:
    EST, USA
    Evolution Again

    Definitely, it is wrong discriminate on the basis of race, appearance, religion, caste or ethnicity; however it is also wrong to say there are no differences between different types, kinds, races or sub-species of humans.

    The following image gives a rough idea how the modern human evolved. It is a fact that homo something populations got isolated at some point in the different continents and evolved by themselves adapting to the different climatic and environmental conditions peculiar to those particular landmasses. The question is, when did this isolation happen? Did it happen during the existence of the homo erectus, or the homo neanderthalensis or the homo sapiens or did it happen further down the line during existence of homo sapiens sapiens?

    [​IMG]

    The following satire, which might be politically incorrect (I beg your pardon), is altogether not untrue. It clearly reflects different conditions in different countries.

    [​IMG]

    What do the members think about it?
     
  11. RAM

    RAM The southern Man Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Messages:
    2,242
    Likes Received:
    210
    Location:
    Bharath
    H Evolution and Global dispersion



    The current school of thought standby the fact that HUMO ERGASTER(existed b/w 1-2millionyears )the ascendant to HUMO ERECTUS had its intial dispersion from africa to Eurasia.

    http://www.thamesandhudsonusa.com/web/humanpast/summaries/ch03.html




    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Map of potential dispersal routes out of Africa.

    http://www.nerc.ac.uk/research/programmes/efched/results/turner.asp


    [FONT=&quot]

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] The emergence of Homo Ergaster1.8-1.7 million years ago resembled first hominin species whose anatomy and behaviour fully justify the label human.

    Unlike its diverged species like H Australipithecines
    [/FONT][FONT=&quot]and Homo Habilis,H Ergaster achieved essentially modern form,proprotions ,increased stature and degreee of sexual diamorphism.

    This explains how H Ergaster became the first hominin species to invade arid highly seasonal enviornments in Africa and later to colonise Eurasia.Its broad dispersal greatly enhanced
    [/FONT][FONT=&quot] the potential for natural selection ,random genetic drift to promote genetic divergence among human population resulting in 3 distinct Human lineages-H erectus in fareast,H sapiens in Africa,H neanderthalensis in Europe.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]




    [/FONT]
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2010
  12. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Messages:
    31,640
    Likes Received:
    17,125
    Location:
    EST, USA


    That clarifies a lot of things. So, people who claim that humans originated in Africa are simply talking about hearsay or trying to pursue a political or religious agenda, or are simply trying to feel good about themselves. As I said earlier, I was always skeptical about this theory.

    Homo ergaster probably did originate in Africa, but humans, i.e. homo sapiens did not. They originated in different places all over the world. So next time somebody tries to argue, I am armed with a few points of my own.

    Conclusion: Each* continent had it's own post-dispersal populations of homo ergaster. Thence came the homo erectus. Thence came the homo neanderthalensis. Thence came the modern human, the homo sapiens. Now we have a special sub-species called homo sapiens sapiens.

    *Not sure about Antarctica.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2010
  13. RAM

    RAM The southern Man Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Messages:
    2,242
    Likes Received:
    210
    Location:
    Bharath
    Prehistoric creatures discovered in huge Indian amber haul

    Fossil hunters find 150kg of amber in Gujarat province containing over 700 arthropod specimens
    [​IMG]
    Hundreds of prehistoric insects and other creatures have been discovered in a large haul of amber excavated from a coalmine in western India. An international team of fossil hunters recovered 150kg of the dirty brown resin from Cambay Shale in Gujarat province, making it one of the largest amber collections on record. The tiny animals became entombed in the fossilised tree resin some 52m years ago, before the Indian subcontinent crunched into Asia to produce the Himalayan mountain range.

    Jes Rust, a paleontologist at Bonn University, said the creatures, including ancient bees, spiders, termites, gnats, ants and flies, were in remarkably good condition considering their age. In total, the team has identified more than 700 arthropods, a group of animals that includes insects, crustaceans and arachnids.


    "They are so well preserved. It's like having the complete dinosaur, not just the bones. You can see all the surface details on their bodies and wings. It's fantastic," Rust told the Guardian. The remains of two praying mantises were also found.Insects and other small animals may be trapped in resin flowing down tree bark, or as it covers their dead bodies on the forest floor. Over time, the resin hardens into a translucent yellow material that preserves them.


    The amber is the oldest evidence scientists have of tropical forests in Asia. Tests linked the amber to a family of hardwood trees called dipterocarpaceae, that make up 80% of the forest canopy in south-east Asia. Fossilised wood from these trees was found alongside the amber deposits. Rust said that much of India may have been covered in forests at the time the amber formed.


    The trapped insects give a revealing snapshot of life in India before it collided with Asia. India was once attached to Africa but separated some 160m years ago. For the next 100m years, India's landmass moved towards Asia at around 20cm a year.India was isolated for so long that it could have evolved unique flora and fauna, but the encased insects suggest this did not happen. Writing in the US journal, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, the team describe life forms in the amber closely related to those in Asia and Europe. As India moved towards Asia, the encroaching continental plates may have created an arc of islands that connected the two landmasses like stepping stones long before 50m years ago, said Rust. This would allow species from India, Asia and Europe to mix.
    "We think that, before the final collision between India and Asia, some sort of island arc was established. Our findings suggest that the mixing of fauna was already so strong, that it was already happening for several million years," said Rust. Once species from India had crossed into Asia, they could have spread further, eventually reaching Australia.


    Michael Engel, curator of entomology at the University of Kansas, said: "What we found indicates that India was not completely isolated, even though the Cambray deposit dates from a time that precedes the slamming of India into Asia. There might have been some linkages."The team has so far recorded 100 different arthropod species, but Rust said they expect to find more, some of which are likely to be close relatives of animals in Africa and Madagascar.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/oct/25/prehistoric-creatures-indian-amber-haul
     
  14. RAM

    RAM The southern Man Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Messages:
    2,242
    Likes Received:
    210
    Location:
    Bharath
    Amber has the answer: insects provide clues to India's past


    http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/wor...vide-clues-to-indias-past-20101026-172fa.html
     
  15. The Messiah

    The Messiah Bow Before Me! Elite Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2010
    Messages:
    10,788
    Likes Received:
    4,552
    That is common knowledge!

    Indian subcontinent broke off from africa and joined asia and since it takes millions of years (continental shift) India was like australia is today ie one big island.
     
  16. Tshering22

    Tshering22 Sikkimese Saber Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2010
    Messages:
    4,404
    Likes Received:
    2,783
    Location:
    Gangtok, Sikkim, India
    All know this... first Europeans desperately tried to keep their assumed superiority through "Aryan Invasion" bull**** myth and now when the truth is out, their imperialist lie is proven false. First of all, I don't understand how people could buy that nonsense theory. If it was indeed that way, how come Europeans weren't Hindus in first place? I cannot believe that world can be so blind as to overlook such a big folly that the colonials escaped with.

    It is a white obsession to compare, measure and assess everything with race--wether it is color, superiority/inferiority etc. or something else---not something found in Asia that revolves around a way of life that Hindus have followed.

    In the coming future, a lot of further truths will be exposed as the balance of power returns to East slowly.
     
  17. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Messages:
    31,640
    Likes Received:
    17,125
    Location:
    EST, USA
    Frankly, the best way to describe the Aryan Invasion Theory is to call it a 'debated' issue. I am not saying that the Aryans indeed invaded; all I am saying is that it could be a possibility and at the moment, I, personally, am ambivalent.

    Let us put forward the arguments to support as well as oppose this theory. That, I think is a worthwhile thing to do than to simply pass conclusions.
     
  18. The Messiah

    The Messiah Bow Before Me! Elite Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2010
    Messages:
    10,788
    Likes Received:
    4,552
    Even if it was an invasion (which i highly doubt...it was more like migration to indus then surrounding parts) it still has nothing to do with europe since aryans weren't europeans per se.

    They were people living in northern iran near caspian sea and caucasus mountains who later migrated to europe, central asia, and northern India.
     
  19. civfanatic

    civfanatic Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2009
    Messages:
    4,562
    Likes Received:
    2,526
    Location:
    తెలంగాణ
    Actually the closest descendants of the ancient Aryans today live in northern Kashmir and Ladakh, NOT Europe.
     
  20. RAM

    RAM The southern Man Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Messages:
    2,242
    Likes Received:
    210
    Location:
    Bharath
    The Aryan Invasion theory proposed by Maxmuller in 1882 though being getting discarded nonethless have the leeway of the timescale where archaeology itself was nowhere near the level of development and maturity as it is today.Maxmuller's proposal encircled around Aryan invasionafter studying rig veda leaps to the gigantic conclusion that it means 'Aryan' the race. This spawned of a huge chase to figure out who these characters were. They assigned them some mythical place in the steppes of Central Asia/Europe. Since the horse was mentioned as sacrifice in Rg Veda they assumed they rode upon these horses. They (Aryans) rode right into the Indian sub-continent and chased away the natives all the way down to the south of India.


    In Between a british archeaologist R caldwell a colonial Evangeliast missionary after reaching south India in the midlle of 1800 's who after studying Tamil Burrowed the term Dravida who proposed those got chased by Aryans reached /settled in S India.SO far so Good.,...BUT

    Meanwhile Indus Valley Civilisation was discovered and it was so sophisticated that it put to shame the standard bearers of European civilization. While their grand fore fathers were living like animals in forests, foraging for food and very little for language and communication, here was a civilization with roads, baths, granaries, a democratic system, language, advanced concepts of settlement and living. They used a pictorial form of writing quite similar to Ancient Egyptians.

    Coming back to the current views whether its a migration or invasion ..these proposals had been advocated favouring the western academia of those times -however to challenge these arguments there was no evidence based systems or technologies were placed in those times.These theories may be eclipsed in future but it will be Debated.
     
  21. The Messiah

    The Messiah Bow Before Me! Elite Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2010
    Messages:
    10,788
    Likes Received:
    4,552
    Journey of Man: A Genetic Odyssey



















     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015

Share This Page