Don't rush to back Beijing over Delhi

Discussion in 'West Asia & Africa' started by ejazr, Sep 13, 2010.

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  1. ejazr

    ejazr Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Don't rush to back Beijing over Delhi | The Australian

    THE cover story on the August 21-27 edition of The Economist was entitled "Contest of the century: China versus India".

    For most pundits, the smart money is on Beijing. After all, compare the flawless spectacle of the Beijing Olympic Games with the chaotic and even embarrassing build-up to next month's Commonwealth Games in New Delhi.

    China's ruthless efficiency is menacing but impressive. In contrast, even locals doubt India can put on a half-respectable event. But drilling deeper reveals that China's authoritarian state-led model is worryingly fragile while India's democratic approach is surprisingly resilient and a better bet for the long haul.

    Such an argument appears improbable. In 1980, the sizes of the Chinese and Indian economies were roughly similar. Three decades later, China's GDP is 2.5 times larger. When Chinese reforms began in 1979, three-quarters of the population in both countries lived in absolute poverty. In China today, the figure is about 12 per cent compared with 22 per cent in India. As admirers of the Chinese state-led model readily admit, China's authoritarian model is harsh. But, they say, it is far superior to India's democratic and gradualist model of development when it comes to providing order, governance, poverty reduction and development.

    The common assumption is that China adopted an East Asian model of authoritarian capitalism when reforms began in 1979, with the state-controlled sector taking the lead in stimulating economic activity. In fact this occurred only after the 1989 protests when the Chinese Communist Party retook control over the most important economic levers in the country.

    From 1979 to 1989, the main driver of growth was land reform. Beijing allowed peasants to use their allotted land in any way they wanted, and to sell their produce at market prices. This household-responsibility system gave rise to millions of so-called Township and Village Enterprises, small-scale industries that began the industrialisation and urbanisation process.

    TVEs were technically owned by the local collective but were in practice run like private companies. In Deng Xiaoping's words, this "was a completely unplanned, spontaneous revolution that took us by surprise".

    But it worked: 80 per cent of the poverty reduction in China occurred from 1979 to 1989.

    It was actually about the CCP relinquishing economic and social control over the country. It was only after the Tiananmen protests that the CCP deliberately reasserted itself in the economy: favouring state-owned enterprises over private industry in the most important and lucrative economic sectors in order to prevent the emergence of an independent middle class.

    Beijing encouraged direct foreign investment and foreign companies into China from the early 1990s onwards to make up for the lack of local innovation and creativity resulting from the suppression of the domestic private sector. It was not Goldman Sachs or Walmart but the sweat and enterprise of the country's peasants that did the heavy lifting of poverty alleviation.

    Since 1992, the proportion of the population in poverty is declining by about 10 per cent each year (the same rate as in India,) while the number of people in absolute poverty has risen since 2000. In contrast, India's bottom-up approach to development, which is led by the domestic private sector, means that working towards a better life is largely done independently of the state sector. Because capital in India does not discriminate against the private sector, mean household incomes have been rising at about the same rate as GDP growth at 7 to 9 per cent each year.

    China's ruthlessly efficient state-led development approach has a human price: unaccountable local officials often in cahoots with developers have forced between 40 million and 80 million households off their land with inadequate or non-existent compensation - no wonder China reportedly spends more on the People's Armed Police looking after domestic security than it does on the People's Liberation Army.

    These economic and social dislocations mean that authoritarian China's reputation for order and resilience, and New Delhi's for disorder and fragility, is undeserved.

    According to Beijing's own figures, there were 124,000 instances of mass unrest in 2008, compared with about 5000 in India.

    For the Olympic Games in 2008, a reported 350,000 people were forcibly "resettled" to make way for the Bird's Nest Stadium alone.

    Only an authoritarian country with the state in firm control could have pulled off an event such as the Beijing Olympics. Democratic India, with a messy system of rights and regulations, cannot hope to do the same.

    But behind the image of competence and harmony lies a brittle China. By Beijing's calculations, China's authoritarian political economy is in danger of imploding without at least 8 per cent growth each year.

    In contrast, democratic India - even if it is muddling through - has no such fear.

    John Lee is a foreign policy research fellow at The Centre for Independent Studies and a visiting fellow at the Hudson Institute in Washington. He is the author of Will China Fail? (CIS: 2009)
     
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  3. anoop_mig25

    anoop_mig25 Senior Member Senior Member

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    well nice things about india but mai i ask how long will this "long " would be. when it would end
     
  4. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    One has to admit that nationalism in China is more robust than in India, notwithstanding disparate commentary of their being enslaved by the CCP Thought Barrage.

    In fact their having an authoritarian regime has been definite to China’s advantage. It is a moot point if that is what free thinking people should be subjected to, but a large majority of the Chinese people have no complaints.

    In comparison, India is lacklustre in its approach to nation building or defence of the Nation. We are swamped by the sab chalta attitude and those at the helm of power not only capitalise on this attitude of the people, but liberally dip their hands in the till. The CWG is an ideal example of how a prestigious event is showcasing not the Nation, but the ill gotten quick money made by some!

    Therefore, one cannot quite compare China with India. China, to be fair in judgement, is far ahead of India.

    We have been hearing for long that China's economy will implode. The ground reality indicates that it is exploding with uncontrolled glee!
     
  5. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

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    well, frankly speaking, in the eyes of most CHinese ,India now is a a model how "democracy" ruins a country with great potential.

    many CHinese supporter of democracy and basher against CPC have to shut up when CHinese supporter of CPC and authoritism use India as a example how terrible and harmful democracy might to a old civilization with billions of people.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2010
  6. roma

    roma NRI in Europe Senior Member

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    tiger needs a bit more of dragons central decision making and follow through - toomuch democracy for a society that huge is just impractical
     
  7. Minghegy

    Minghegy Regular Member

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    Central government needs cultures and traditions to support it, especially in a huge country, China has an united central government since BC 221, but India hasn't, so I think democracy is the best for India.
    Without the social cultures and tradition, top leaders don't know how to use his power, local and central governments don't know how to deal with each other, people don't buy governments, everything will in chaos. Running it is more difficult than democracy.
    Most western see centralization = dictatorship = autocracy, because of they don't have such consciousnesses.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2010
  8. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    It is true that democracy has a huge baggage to carry for quick results.

    It has its plusses too!

    Democracy allows freedom of thought and action, even if it is not toeing the govt line and the govt can do sausage since there are the Courts for redress in case the govt gets draconian.
     
  9. SHASH2K2

    SHASH2K2 New Member

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    Please donot frustrate her. These kind of information about People rights are new to her. They are used to live in captivity and freedom is something they will never realize unless they leave China and go to USA .

    :emot15:
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2010
  10. pankaj nema

    pankaj nema Senior Member Senior Member

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    With the ENORMOUS diversity of our society , can India be ANY THING but a democratic society.
    I dont know why democracy is abused. India is of course muddling along in all its choatic an messy democracy but have n t we been through Extremely difficult initial years.

    The very fact that we were supposed to dis integrate in just 10 years as per the British and that we have nt is testimony to our resilience. I believe we are one of the most resilient people on earth.

    The world has sit up and taken notice of us only in the last 10 years. The future belongs definitely to India
     
  11. Minghegy

    Minghegy Regular Member

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    Comparing Beijing Olympics to New Delhi Commonwealth Games is not match, GuangZhou Asia Games will hold in November, GuangZhou and New Delhi are the competitors.
     
  12. swapnilsai

    swapnilsai New Member

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    It is true we should learn something from China who knows where they want to reach for global dominance..... but on other hand our MP's are still fighting in parliament for salary hike...... it is shameful for democracy like us and rising power
     
  13. amoy

    amoy Senior Member Senior Member

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    Actually I disagree with some viewpoints like 'democracy ruins India' blah blah.

    The more I read the more I come to get convinced that present democratic set-up suits India well as a country of such diversity and pluralism (culturally, religiously and economically).

    Moreover someday China will evolve to such a stage that 'democracy' takes shape in a natural course, certainly different from 'Indian style'.

    At present as I wrote separately mainstream CCP resembles your Congress in some policies, while your CPI M sounds like Left Wing of CCP. And BJP seems to carry a 'religious' flavour that most Chinese may be wary of (back to China's context). Meanwhile India has lots of 'regional' parties, which Chinese would hardly have buy-in of.


    Conclusion: both countries are never static in political system. sometimes it's about what priority u take
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2010
  14. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Democracy does not ruin India.

    It only slows it down since Justice for all citizens has to be addressed by the Courts in its hierarchical ascendancy with great deliberation that may take years and it cannot be dismissed perfunctorily.

    Then the political parties have to pander to the popular sentiments even if it does not mean good common sense, since any action otherwise would mean losing their position to govern.

    These and other infirmities to quick progress is not so in totalitarian regime and that is why they can progress with commendable alacrity as was witnessed with the rise of power from abject poverty by Russia and China.
     
  15. navida

    navida Regular Member

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    Sadly, I have to agree with you. Democracy can always not be right. Success of democracy depends on the people. India has a huge illiterate population and I doubt if they would make the right decision. With the different religions, languages and castes, its all the more necessary to have a stronger center to have a unified growth and act for the greater good rather than succumbing to a small group's happiness.
    One thing that might get affected is the culture that has been preserved for centuries. But it is alright to fore go the culture for greater good. Just consider the case of Vedanta group's project in Orissa. Orissa is one of the most impoverished and backward states in India and they should find all the means to get revenue into their state. But the government budged to the popular sentiment and halted the project which would have generated thousands of jobs ,because the mine was on a so called 'holy' hill. The tribals will now go back to starving or eating mango seeds and stones.

    Democracy has turned out to be a huge burden for us.
     
  16. Shaitan

    Shaitan Zandu balm all day Senior Member

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    India is a PRE-COLONIAL nation thats made up of MANY different cultures, people, beliefs, etc, etc, etc. That was left with 70%+ under the poverty level and like 15%+ literacy rate in Independence. And the fact we didnt break into pieces by know is an example of how India isnt a bad democracy,even when hitting past a billion people.Indians voted into power Sikhs, Christians, Muslims, woman, dalit, ITALIAN, etc, etc(Groups that make up like 0.1% Indian pop.). when USA in 200 years just voted in a mixed man. How is India a bad example of democracy?PLEASE look at all the condition of most PRE-COLONIAL nations in Africa, South Asia, S.E. Asia. Look at their condition. Its poor like Indias. Example from the past, Look at the condition of pre-colonization of Europe when the Roman declined. Look at their condition after. But India is getting better economically. India is a MIRACLE!

    India in the next 50-100 years is going to be much different.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2010
  17. nimo_cn

    nimo_cn Senior Member Senior Member

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    I think the comparisons between India and China have been very unfair to India.

    China, as a nation has been there for hundreds of years, whereas India as whole has only been established for less than 70 years.

    While most Chinese were talking about upliftting China from a poverty-striken country to a prosperous one, most Indians were still struggling for a recognized indentity. Whoever is running China, be it KMT or CCP, as long as he is not dumb should be able to put China ahead of India at the beginning.

    If we take this huge advantage China has been enjoying into consideration, we should not gloat over the little accomplishment China has achieved or mock India for being temporarily behind. On the contrary we should admire the success has been accomplished by India.

    The success they have achieved are the success of building a nation from the ground up, the success of holding a fragile nation together, the success of expanding their economy rapidly, and i think the democracy India has adopted should take the credit for making all of these possible.

    In no sense can people conclude India is ruined by democracy.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2010
  18. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    Why ?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_India

    Singularly the most stupid statement. Period.

    How so ? Its only since the last 15-20 years that China has got ahead of India. Cultural Revolution anyone ?

    Unfortunately, Indian citizens know they are better than the rest and expected the OC to follow suit. In China, Hans can't protest and the non-Hans get killed.

    I wholeheartedly differ with the reasons. But communism has ruined Chinese. They are imprisoned in a fake gold cage.

    Now, I must warn you to not make such obtuse statements.
     
  19. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    I am Not deleting Nimo's post for posterity sake. Henceforth cretinous post like these will merit strong action. Y'all have been Warned.
     
  20. neo29

    neo29 Senior Member Senior Member

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    If India as a whole established for 70 years, then the same applies for PRC which after the civil war saw PLA controlling most of China. As a matter of fact you still have not completely won the civil war since KMT still opposes and communist PLA. Civilization on the Indian peninsula goes back thousands of years when you guys were tribes. So dont lecture us on existence.

    You have rapidly developed coz you managed to make everyone work for you at cheap wages. Out in India we have something called as freedom which you may have never heard of. In India people demand higher wages and hence production cost increases and so on. But you guys make your people work like slaves and then talk about greatness.

    Look at your own dirt before comparing.
     
  21. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Let us look at the Chinese history and the claim that it has been there for centuries.

    This will indicate in a graphic way the history of China.

    Notice that there was nothing called China and the expansion by conquests including those of non Han people.

    In fact, one cannot forget the Khanates and the Manchus who were not Chinese by a long chalk.

    [​IMG]
     
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