Does the vegetarianism of part of our people sap our martial strength ?

Discussion in 'Politics & Society' started by ashdoc, Jun 28, 2011.

  1. ashdoc

    ashdoc Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,768
    Likes Received:
    965
    According to the great historian vincent smith , who wrote the OXFORD HISTORY OF INDIA nearly hundred years ago , the remarkable feature of indian civilization has been the cult of ahimsa !! this feature has persisted not just in gandhian times , but also since the times of buddha and mahavir .

    but this has also meant that india has very rarely invaded a foreign land......
    foreign invaders , on the other hand have repeatedly invaded and conquered this land .

    vincent smith squarely holds ahimsa responsible for our military failures through the centuries.

    i feel a vegetarian person has way too much respect for life , to the extent that he cannot kill even when it is necessary to protect himself .

    this is further corroborated by the fact that the gujrati and jain community , which are vegetarians , dont send anybody into the armed forces .
     
    Zoravar and Godless-Kafir like this.
  2.  
  3. civfanatic

    civfanatic Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2009
    Messages:
    4,562
    Likes Received:
    2,526
    Location:
    తెలంగాణ
    This is an idiotic notion with no scientific basis whatsoever. I hope you realise there are plenty of people in the armed forces who are vegetarians.
     
  4. Shaitan

    Shaitan Zandu balm all day Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2010
    Messages:
    3,402
    Likes Received:
    3,412
    Location:
    Judica

    Its mostly your up bringing and culture, not really what you eat.

    Conquerors like Mongols, Brits, etc came from lands with very limited resources, so they sought to invade others.

    Indians conquerored each other and also the Invaders that stayed in India. I cant really understand why they didnt go further pasted the Indus(except Mauryans).

    I feel like after getting owned by the British, India today has a different attitude then the Indians in past.


    The funny thing about the invaders that came to India and stayed. They themselves would get invaded, and cant resist.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2011
  5. mayfair

    mayfair Elite Member Elite Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    Messages:
    2,585
    Likes Received:
    1,763
    Location:
    India
    What a load of bull.
     
  6. civfanatic

    civfanatic Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2009
    Messages:
    4,562
    Likes Received:
    2,526
    Location:
    తెలంగాణ
    Because there was nothing past the Indus worth conquering. Even the Mauryas conquered the region only as a buffer against the Hellenistic states.

    Everything that was valuable in ancient times was concentrated in India proper: fertile land, precious metals, elephants, spices, incense, silk, etc,
     
  7. Shaitan

    Shaitan Zandu balm all day Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2010
    Messages:
    3,402
    Likes Received:
    3,412
    Location:
    Judica
    Just for the heck for conquering it. Plus that region can supply your army with houses. Even going out and eliminating the threats like the white Huns or the Arabs who was a constant threat. Chinese did the same for the Turkics up north and the early Kushans(Yuezhi). Go out and break their backs before they break you.

    When threats like Scythians, White Huns, Indo Greeks, and others waited accross the Indus, Indians didnt invade and break their backs. They waited, and when the opportunity came, they invaded.

    The funny thing about this is once they invade, they settle in India and integrate and mix with Indian culture and people. Then they themselves gets to comfortable and gets invaded.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2011
  8. civfanatic

    civfanatic Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2009
    Messages:
    4,562
    Likes Received:
    2,526
    Location:
    తెలంగాణ
    Conquering a wasteland that's full of hostile and extremely independent-minded tribes just "for the heck of conquering it" is a rather poor excuse for conquering said wasteland.

    As for horses, the traditional source for Indian armies came from the Kambojas, and later from Rajputana and Gujarat. South Indian armies tended to ignore horses in favour of light elephants.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2011
  9. Shaitan

    Shaitan Zandu balm all day Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2010
    Messages:
    3,402
    Likes Received:
    3,412
    Location:
    Judica
    Yes, why not control that area? Indians rarely ever controlled it, and the empires that did like the Palas, Mauryans, etc didnt control it for a long time.


    Yes!!


    See, that is a damn good reason to have it!! Like have a puppet in control(at least). It's like having Tibet as a buffer zone from China.

    Mughals also used the area of Afghanistan as a bufferzone from the Persians.


    Full of hostile and extremely independent minded tribes. So what?? Alexander the great and the Greeks, Romans, conquered and eliminated many of these "independent-minded tribes". And tribes they never even seen before, Indians are far to familiar with those tribes.

    Persians when they invaded ancient Indians(now Pakistan), they gave the locals control, but got large amounts of tribute from them.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2011
  10. civfanatic

    civfanatic Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2009
    Messages:
    4,562
    Likes Received:
    2,526
    Location:
    తెలంగాణ
    Because the Kambojas themselves were an Indian (Kshatriya) tribe. Afghanistan itself was ruled by Hindu rulers until the 11th century (Kabul Shahis).

    It was only until Ghazni's conquests that the region full outside of the Indic cultural sphere, and by that time there was no Indian state powerful enough to extend its reach that far.


    There was already a de-facto bufferzone there, although it was not part of a larger state like it was under the Mauryas and Mughals. The problem was that other Indian states did not pay attention to the defeats of the Shahis and Sindhi Jats and Gujjars, and so the erstwhile-powerful states of North-Central India like the Chandellas fell to Ghauri and his slaves.
     
  11. Shaitan

    Shaitan Zandu balm all day Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2010
    Messages:
    3,402
    Likes Received:
    3,412
    Location:
    Judica
    I am not even talking about the Mohammedans. Examples like the Kushan Empire(Yuezhi), White Huns, Scythians, Indo Greeks, etc too.

    No such unifing thing called "Indians". They were like Europeans, independent states and people.'



    I am very sure they knew, but never took action.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2011
  12. Shaitan

    Shaitan Zandu balm all day Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2010
    Messages:
    3,402
    Likes Received:
    3,412
    Location:
    Judica
    We Indians never really had a nation building empire like the Hans. Who started out in a small area of China. Who would conquer and integrate more and more people into the "Han" identity and extended the border further and further. We had Hinduism, but that was very divided. There was countless amounts of ethnic groups in China I am sure, but now there is a billion+ strong ethnic group call the Hans. And today, people who have invaded China like the Mongols and Manchurians are integrating into the larger Han blob.

    I think now is the time. Our "Han" identity, should be the "Indian" identity.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2011
  13. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2009
    Messages:
    24,274
    Likes Received:
    11,290
    Location:
    BANGalore
    Kshatriyas are the warriors from time immemorial. They were the ones responsible for protecting the kingdoms. They were not vegetarian.
     
  14. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2009
    Messages:
    24,274
    Likes Received:
    11,290
    Location:
    BANGalore
    My take on why we never conquered other lands is

    1) we were the better land as one poster has already mentioned. Other land to the west was not worth going after.

    2) To the north we were bound by the himalayas which made it difficult for the either side to conquer each other.

    3) To the south we are bound by vast ocean. Apart from the Cholas, no one was game to undertake expeditionary steps.

    4) Though a vast land on our own, we were bound by natural barriers which made us fight amongst ourselves and that's why we had so many kingdoms. That was a bad thing as we got divided and foreign powers take advantage.

    5) we were not innovative with military technology. Particularly artillery. That's why our huge armies were defeated by rather small armies with good modern weapons of that time.

    6) though we have been sea faring, it was mostly for trade. Navy of any kingdom was not powerful enough to rule the sea.
     
    hit&run and Godless-Kafir like this.
  15. GPM

    GPM Tihar Jail Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,510
    Likes Received:
    506
    A load of bull schidt of a thread.

    Jains are vegetarians, but they are not less martial than others. There are many vegetarians in our armed forces, and they as a class, are yet to be proved COWARDS.
     
  16. Virendra

    Virendra Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2010
    Messages:
    4,674
    Likes Received:
    2,923
    Location:
    Delhi, India, India
    There's a saying, goes like -- "You become what you eat"
    The kind of food we eat definitely has a lot of effect on us. Probably more than we have understood till date.
    But there is no such contrast that veggies aren't men enough and all non vegies are warriors.
    Manliness reflects only upon posession of courage, honour and kindness. There is no way food can give that. It can provide physical strength, resulting confidence might help you slightly sprout your temper temporarily (during war) but nothing more than that.

    Our elders have told us on some occasions that consumption of meat and garlic (what Jains prohibit) by the ancestors helped them in war as these things are believed to provide Tamasic qualities which supposedly come in handy at war :D
    Well thats what the hear and say is, rest its upto individual deliberation.

    Bottomline - The bravado/manliness are more about the mind/heart rather than the food or body.

    Regards,
    Virendra
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2011
    kgec likes this.
  17. thakur_ritesh

    thakur_ritesh Administrator Administrator

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2009
    Messages:
    4,434
    Likes Received:
    1,719
    Location:
    Land of the GODS - "Dev Bhomi".
    lol, whatever that was supposed to mean :D
     
  18. mayfair

    mayfair Elite Member Elite Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    Messages:
    2,585
    Likes Received:
    1,763
    Location:
    India
    Elephants are herbivores
    Gaur (Indian wild cattle) are herbivores
    Wild buffalo are herbivores
    Hippopotamuses are mostly herbivores
    Rhinoceroces are herbivores

    The myth about Plant eaters being docile and timid will never come from someone chased by one or more of these species- speaking from personal experience.
     
    Virendra likes this.
  19. Rahul Singh

    Rahul Singh Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2009
    Messages:
    2,555
    Likes Received:
    1,430
    There is debate on if Kshatriyas from ancient time were vegetarians or non-vegetarians or time-bound non vegetarians or just Tamsik food eaters (use of garlic and onion in food makes any Vaishnav food Tamsik). However the last popular Kshatriyas were Rajputs of Rajputana, and Shishodias of Gujarat and most of them are believed to be strict vegetarians.
     
  20. GPM

    GPM Tihar Jail Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,510
    Likes Received:
    506
    Rhinos are one of the most war like herbivores.

    Hippos co-exist with crocodile BECAUSE they can bite a crocodile in two. So the latter keep clear of them.

    Elephants are not hunted by even by a pride of lions.

    ***
    Once I was addressing a civil-military audience about FLOODS and management thereof. The session went much beyond the schedulerd, so I had to mase a night halt. In the evening in the lounge, over driks, a few military officers said I was too far from military doctrines.In fact I knew nothing of them. But could you undertake 71 b"desh war in the winsow July to Oct? You had to wait for for lean river flow season starting in Nov. That immidiately provoked a young major to retort: Safe to speak from a distance, but it is hard in the field. You will SHIT in your pants THERE. Sure I did put him down: I would SHIT, asd I am not trained to fight. You can afford to be brave surrounded by 120 armed men. My job is to make you appreciate what I do FOR you, since you are as brave as choose to make you.

    Believe me, they offered me a toast!!
     
  21. Virendra

    Virendra Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2010
    Messages:
    4,674
    Likes Received:
    2,923
    Location:
    Delhi, India, India
    WHAT !!! :rotflmao::rotflmao:
    Dude who told you that BS?
    I'm a rajput from Rajasthan. Let me tell you we all eat meat and garlic here very religously :heh:
    Most of the rajputs do so. I cannot vouch completely for the rajputs now in Gujrat but know very well about the ones in Rajasthan.
    We're all certified non veggies (not to be proud or ashamed of it) :namaste: On a personal note, one of the reasons I'm frequently scolded by parents is that I'm reluctant and sometimes go without eating meat for a whole fortnight (big deal?) .. whatever !! :bored:

    And I beg your pardon, change the were to are. We're not dead yet :D

    Regards,
    Virendra
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2011
    thakur_ritesh likes this.

Share This Page