do you feel any kinship with the roma people

roma

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More than ur debating over here in this forum,I would suggest you along with other people form a group ,prepare a petition , why Indian govt should recognize "roma" as indians get sign of a good number of people in support of ur demand .After doing all this come to india ,present ur petition to the concerned department of GOI and if possible directly to PM.I think this could provide you with some tangible results ,rather than just hoping and wishing for it.
....a legal recognition from GOI, IF it can be obtained is certainly better than wishing and hoping on this forum


Indians govt cannot be selective there are 40 million people of Indian origin
Around the globe Fiji,West indies,Africa, Europe, North and South America etc...
What would this recognition bring?
the nri and pio categories already do exist and whatever the rights associated with it are already on paper
for all to see....i think some time back the GOI had already recognised that the Indian diaspora was large
and that there was advantage to link with them as many were high achievers besides the investment to be returned to India

those new categories who newly want to be included eg certain Romani in europe should find out the basis on which
nri and pio was formed - it was mainly to benefit frm them - let's be realistic about that - the hope thet they would re-invest back in India
as a result the GOI also does do some speaking out in cases of some abuse - so let's keep that balanced view in mind - and be realistic about that

I do feel. They are Indians at the end of the day. If any Indian Community anywhere feels distressed , its our duty to protect them...
What would you feel if you went abroad and got kicked by some foreigners and then you started to ask out for help and nobody came?
Stop Acting Selfish and protect those who need help.
i agree with you ---- question is are they indian ? have you actually seen Romani people in western europe ?
The pictures in books and internet are one thing , in actual reality is another ...come to western europe and
see for yourself. Romani member on this thread says eastern Romani look indian - honestly , i dont know about
the eastern ones - so i shall confine my writing to those in Iberia only .

here in Iberia i see every day for myself about 30 - 40 % are pure blonde - being gypsy or Romani
is not only about dna , its also about life-style - moving about - so many different races joined into that ...

resulting in a dna that you tell me if that is indian - now what about the culture , is it indian ? the names are they recognizably indian
names ? do they speak any legally reognised Indian language ? loyalty to India ? investment back in india as nri ?
rights to live in india , to bring their life-style and culture to india ?

on this forum you and i can say yes , no problem - and so avoid a fight here
but in reality ?

Romani people are very very well integrates d in western europe to the extent that they are part of the mainstream
races and no longer classified as Romani - it's only those who violently object to being integrated who remain apart

But in eastern europe i dont know exceot i have heard and read in the internet about abuse

But i i say - to be realistic, in order to stamp out discrimination and unfair behavior towards Romani people
in eastern Europe NOW - not next year, it is an international matter and not something for India alone
~it should be treated as a human rights issue - that should not be happening in this 21st century
and just like the Kurds of Iraq, Romani people of eastern europe could organise themselves and get
an autonomous area ?

That would be more realistic and indeed a lot faster than trying to get anything out of GOI
not that the new GOI would shirk , i think the new bjp GOI are good and responsible people , but
proving legally is gonna be a lot tougher that the other way.

Besides all Romani even in eastern europe are most likely citizens of E U countries and as such have every
right to move to a western european country such as Britain , Ireland , France Spain Holland Belgium
where there is good legislation on human rights - and get instant relief rather than badger India alone .

or even better - agitate for your own autonomous region in eastern europe - like the Kurds
have successfully done for themselves .


I have seen with my own eyes Bangladeshi come here with nothing - they work and in just two years they have enough to start a business and be their own boss - Romani People can do similarly ! - that's yet another alternative

What i have written - far from being selfish is actually the fastest way to bring relief to any Romani people
who might be suffering in eastern europe - a lot faster than trying to change the legislation of India -
after all the new BJP soon to be GOI has a lot of other urgent matters on their hands ?

you do have alternatives , ive listed some above - hope that helps
( not sent from my taptalk or whatever but composed and written in rapid speed record time )
 
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ghost

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....a legal recognition from GOI, IF it can be obtained is certainly better than wishing and hoping on this forum




the nri and pio categories already do exist and whatever the rights associated with it are already on paper
for all to see....i think some time back the GOI had already recognised that the Indian diaspora was large
and that there was advantage to link with them as many were high achievers besides the investment to be returned to India

those new categories who newly want to be included eg certain Romani in europe should find out the basis on which
nri and pio was formed - it was mainly to benefit frm them - let's be realistic about that - the hope thet they would re-invest back in India
as a result the GOI also does do some speaking out in cases of some abuse - so let's keep that balanced view in mind - and be realistic about that




i agree with you ---- question is are they indian ? have you actually seen Romani people in western europe ?
The pictures in books and internet are one thing , in actual reality is another ...come to western europe and
see for yourself. Romani member on this thread says eastern Romani look indian - honestly , i dont know about
the eastern ones - so i shall confine my writing to those in Iberia only .

here in Iberia i see every day for myself about 30 - 40 % are pure blonde - being gypsy or Romani
is not only about dna , its also about life-style - moving about - so many different races joined into that ...

resulting in a dna that you tell me if that is indian - now what about the culture , is it indian ? the names are they recognizably indian
names ? do they speak any legally reognised Indian language ? loyalty to India ? investment back in india as nri ?
rights to live in india , to bring their life-style and culture to india ?

on this forum you and i can say yes , no problem - and so avoid a fight here
but in reality ?

Romani people are very very well integrates d in western europe to the extent that they are part of the mainstream
races and no longer classified as Romani - it's only those who violently object to being integrated who remain apart

But in eastern europe i dont know exceot i have heard and read in the internet about abuse

But i i say - to be realistic, in order to stamp out discrimination and unfair behavior towards Romani people
in eastern Europe NOW - not next year, it is an international matter and not something for India alone
~it should be treated as a human rights issue - that should not be happening in this 21st century
and just like the Kurds of Iraq, Romani people of eastern europe could organise themselves and get
an autonomous area ?

That would be more realistic and indeed a lot faster than trying to get anything out of GOI
not that the new GOI would shirk , i think the new bjp GOI are good and responsible people , but
proving legally is gonna be a lot tougher that the other way.

Besides all Romani even in eastern europe are most likely citizens of E U countries and as such have every
right to move to a western european country such as Britain , Ireland , France Spain Holland Belgium
where there is good legislation on human rights - and get instant relief rather than badger India alone .


or even better - agitate for your own autonomous region in eastern europe - like the Kurds
have successfully done for themselves .


I have seen with my own eyes Bangladeshi come here with nothing - they work and in just two years they have enough to start a business and be their own boss - Romani People can do similarly ! - that's yet another alternative

What i have written - far from being selfish is actually the fastest way to bring relief to any Romani people
who might be suffering in eastern europe - a lot faster than trying to change the legislation of India -
after all the new BJP soon to be GOI has a lot of other urgent matters on their hands ?

you do have alternatives , ive listed some above - hope that helps
( not sent from my taptalk or whatever but composed and written in rapid speed record time )

Purple maybe -maybe not ,one could try though.

Green good to go,and most practical in reality.

Red not possible as Europe is not Iraq.
 
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The question is not if roma people are of Indian ancestry but how this can be recognized by
Indian government? Most people in the Indian diaspora view themselves as citizens of their
Adopted nations or birthplaces
 

Ajesh

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....a legal recognition from GOI, IF it can be obtained is certainly better than wishing and hoping on this forum




the nri and pio categories already do exist and whatever the rights associated with it are already on paper
for all to see....i think some time back the GOI had already recognised that the Indian diaspora was large
and that there was advantage to link with them as many were high achievers besides the investment to be returned to India

those new categories who newly want to be included eg certain Romani in europe should find out the basis on which
nri and pio was formed - it was mainly to benefit frm them - let's be realistic about that - the hope thet they would re-invest back in India
as a result the GOI also does do some speaking out in cases of some abuse - so let's keep that balanced view in mind - and be realistic about that



i agree with you ---- question is are they indian ? have you actually seen Romani people in western europe ?
The pictures in books and internet are one thing , in actual reality is another ...come to western europe and
see for yourself. Romani member on this thread says eastern Romani look indian - honestly , i dont know about
the eastern ones - so i shall confine my writing to those in Iberia only .

here in Iberia i see every day for myself about 30 - 40 % are pure blonde - being gypsy or Romani
is not only about dna , its also about life-style - moving about - so many different races joined into that ...

resulting in a dna that you tell me if that is indian - now what about the culture , is it indian ? the names are they recognizably indian
names ? do they speak any legally reognised Indian language ? loyalty to India ? investment back in india as nri ?
rights to live in india , to bring their life-style and culture to india ?

on this forum you and i can say yes , no problem - and so avoid a fight here
but in reality ?

Romani people are very very well integrates d in western europe to the extent that they are part of the mainstream
races and no longer classified as Romani - it's only those who violently object to being integrated who remain apart

But in eastern europe i dont know exceot i have heard and read in the internet about abuse

But i i say - to be realistic, in order to stamp out discrimination and unfair behavior towards Romani people
in eastern Europe NOW - not next year, it is an international matter and not something for India alone
~it should be treated as a human rights issue - that should not be happening in this 21st century
and just like the Kurds of Iraq, Romani people of eastern europe could organise themselves and get
an autonomous area ?

That would be more realistic and indeed a lot faster than trying to get anything out of GOI
not that the new GOI would shirk , i think the new bjp GOI are good and responsible people , but
proving legally is gonna be a lot tougher that the other way.

Besides all Romani even in eastern europe are most likely citizens of E U countries and as such have every
right to move to a western european country such as Britain , Ireland , France Spain Holland Belgium
where there is good legislation on human rights - and get instant relief rather than badger India alone .

or even better - agitate for your own autonomous region in eastern europe - like the Kurds
have successfully done for themselves .


I have seen with my own eyes Bangladeshi come here with nothing - they work and in just two years they have enough to start a business and be their own boss - Romani People can do similarly ! - that's yet another alternative

What i have written - far from being selfish is actually the fastest way to bring relief to any Romani people
who might be suffering in eastern europe - a lot faster than trying to change the legislation of India -
after all the new BJP soon to be GOI has a lot of other urgent matters on their hands ?

you do have alternatives , ive listed some above - hope that helps
( not sent from my taptalk or whatever but composed and written in rapid speed record time )
They are indian. Period.

They were captured as part of war booty after Mughal invasion of Rajasthan, Gujrat and taken away to Middle east and from there they led a nomadic life

They originally were dancers in indian kings courts

Just ask their history from any learned Romani, you can find out for yourself
 

roma

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They are indian. Period.
They were captured as part of war booty after Mughal invasion of Rajasthan, Gujrat and taken away to Middle east and from there they led a nomadic life
They originally were dancers in indian kings courts
Just ask their history from any learned Romani, you can find out for yourself
i accept without any problem the historical veracity of what you have written above
i have never denied that there WAS an indian element to the mix of races that is now part
of the western european Romani ( note im NOT taking about eastern european Romani )

The mughal raids on rajasthan and western indian were around 730 AD
https://www.google.com/?hl=en#hl=en&q=mughal++invasion+of+rajasthan
and youre telling us that there wasnt any mixing of cutures languages and dna after some 1200 or so years ?

im saying there certainly was - an im going further to say that - it is now to the extent that
~the indian component is hardly recognizable in terms of culture, language, ethos etc etc i cant
be repeating the points i made in my posts above .

I have visited Romani community here in Iberia . and also outside their areas - i come across
Romani people everyday in the marketplace shopping centres etc normal daily lifeas they are
very well integrated here . One of my bank managers recently was Romani people.

Have you had such a real daily view ?

your emphatic statement that:- " they are indian period. " shows a reluctance to look
at the obvious realities and doesnt hold water in the reality which i see every day

please visit Iberia and see for oneself ?

but if anyone can change indian legislation regarding pio nri to recognise and include
then, i would say Great !

because anything less is just a talkie-talkie show
 
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Soul83

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i seriously doubt that they are blonde or white, because spanish people told me they look "indian" (to them) and they didnt liked them

spanish gypsie
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/c4/38/09/c43809dc3be9a9d18e61b4f5eb21d049.jpg
http://media2.mitele.es/uploads/2013/02/51263a4ee4ecb-660x371.jpg
look at the disney cartoon esmeralda if you want to know how gypsies look like

well they dont have indian names and such but they have some cultural traits from india still, but it is a mix between european and indian, also their language romanes is similar to sanskrit, hindi and punjabi, so you cant say they dont speak a indian language. it is racist to say they are not indians because they are mixed, anglo-indians are also mixed but have a special protection from india
 

Ajesh

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i accept without any problem the historical veracity of what you have written above
i have never denied that there WAS an indian element to the mix of races that is now part
of the western european Romani ( note im NOT taking about eastern european Romani )

The mughal raids on rajasthan and western indian were around 730 AD
https://www.google.com/?hl=en#hl=en&q=mughal++invasion+of+rajasthan
and youre telling us that there wasnt any mixing of cutures languages and dna after some 1200 or so years ?

im saying there certainly was - an im going further to say that - it is now to the extent that
~the indian component is hardly recognizable in terms of culture, language, ethos etc etc i cant
be repeating the points i made in my posts above .

I have visited Romani community here in Iberia . and also outside their areas - i come across
Romani people everyday in the marketplace shopping centres etc normal daily lifeas they are
very well integrated here . One of my bank managers recently was Romani people.

Have you had such a real daily view ?

your emphatic statement that:- " they are indian period. " shows a reluctance to look
at the obvious realities and doesnt hold water in the reality which i see every day

please visit Iberia and see for oneself ?

but if anyone can change indian legislation regarding pio nri to recognise and include
then, i would say Great !

because anything less is just a talkie-talkie show
Most of the gypsies were the Classical Dancers in the courts of the Indian Kings. They were well kept, and well looked after by the king. So most of them have strong allegiance to their ancient Indian Culture. That explains lack of intermixing with other Population.

When Mahmud of Ghazni raided Somnath Temple, he wanted gold from there but could not so in sheer frustration he took away a lot of Girls from those Temple back to Afghan and Middle East. But Ghazni was not much interested in Girls, Dont ask me why ;), so he did not keep them in tight leash and they managed to escape from his Clutches along with the Help of Hindu guides masquerading as mercenary Soldiers and they managed to escape to Europe.

Try asking some "Learned" Gypsies, they will tell you the same truth. But it will be difficult to find them as i dont know how much of them would remain. I mean the Learned Gypsy.

Most of the woman are trained Indian Classical Dancers. Being from Europe i think you would better know about Serbian Leader Ante Pavelic. he was the main man who was responsible of Terminating Many thousands of Romani People from Ex-Yougoslavian States.

The Romanis have remained relatively very Pure and true to their Origin till now. if any Indian Community in the World who deserves help its the Romani.
 

roma

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i seriously doubt that they are blonde or white, because spanish people told me they look "indian" (to them) and they didnt liked them

spanish gypsie
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/c4/38/09/c43809dc3be9a9d18e61b4f5eb21d049.jpg
http://media2.mitele.es/uploads/2013/02/51263a4ee4ecb-660x371.jpg
look at the disney cartoon esmeralda if you want to know how gypsies look like

well they dont have indian names and such but they have some cultural traits from india still, but it is a mix between european and indian, also their language romanes is similar to sanskrit, hindi and punjabi, so you cant say they dont speak a indian language. it is racist to say they are not indians because they are mixed, anglo-indians are also mixed but have a special protection from india
Most of the gypsies were the Classical Dancers in the courts of the Indian Kings. They were well kept, and well looked after by the king. So most of them have strong allegiance to their ancient Indian Culture. That explains lack of intermixing with other Population.

When Mahmud of Ghazni raided Somnath Temple, he wanted gold from there but could not so in sheer frustration he took away a lot of Girls from those Temple back to Afghan and Middle East. But Ghazni was not much interested in Girls, Dont ask me why ;), so he did not keep them in tight leash and they managed to escape from his Clutches along with the Help of Hindu guides masquerading as mercenary Soldiers and they managed to escape to Europe.

Try asking some "Learned" Gypsies, they will tell you the same truth. But it will be difficult to find them as i dont know how much of them would remain. I mean the Learned Gypsy.

Most of the woman are trained Indian Classical Dancers. Being from Europe i think you would better know about Serbian Leader Ante Pavelic. he was the main man who was responsible of Terminating Many thousands of Romani People from Ex-Yougoslavian States.

The Romanis have remained relatively very Pure and true to their Origin till now. if any Indian Community in the World who deserves help its the Romani.
both your posts are well appreciated
it's the subconscious, perhaps, that is bothering me a little and i dont think it's an
emotional response, suggesting that im being incorrect and if leaders listened to the same,
we wouldn't have half the problems we do., so if i don't have COMPLETE, PERFECT, knowledge
on a subject, i will not pretend to, ....... after all who knows it all ?
besides Almighty, only those who are fake-ing it .

the Indian element is much stronger than the 8% i had earlier stated
but there has been some mixing and as we accept anglo-indian and indeed our rahul,
so we must accept other mixing as well

as for the brutality caused to Romani - i had made it very clear in two earlier posts that i strongly
condemned it and we would stand with Romani people just as we would help any other oppressed
people on a human rights basis and demand that others nations help too .

but as my understanding is changing i now say ok we accept Romani as indian -
is there going to be a basis ? if so what ?
let me suggest some criteria - and forum members can add , delete or modify :-

(1) they shall want to be identified as indian - we are assuming that all Romani want that
is it true ? some, indeed many , may prefer to be absorbed into the euro communities they already are in and
avoid being identified as an indian imigrant but rather as a local person ?
(2) they shall support india in any and all india -pak rivalry
(3) they can remain neutral in any altercation between India and their host nation - eg Quattrochi affair, Italian Marines affair etc.
(4) they should increase their absorption of Indian culture to be noticeably more Indian
(5) they should attempt to restore links and communication with people in india

are these realistic ? well i can think of those 5 above, you can add, modify or delete as you see fit .

i am hoping that eastern and western Romani can have an autonomous region each - then they
could more realistically implement these reforms and more importantly better look after their communities . The autonomy should be only in the areas of he basic levels of education eg primary and secondary schooling but for university they go where all citizens do, ( this is because most bullying occurs at the childish ages ) culture and civilian policing with support from the home state, the United Nations and any organisation or state which wishes to contribute. . .
 
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Soul83

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there are some gypsy in india still I think, we call them banjara (correct of if I am wrong)
gypsie is a bit of a confusing term, it originates with the ethnic group of roma people when they came to europe they were believed to be egyptians, hence the word gypsy etc. but after a time it came to mean carnie folks etc. so other people who joined the gypsies or somewhere else in the world were called gypsies etc. people who live a nomadic or half nomadic lifestyle etc. im not sure roma could very well be the same ethnicity as banjara but it is unlikely. also banjara are not the only indians who are called gypsies.

for example there are also "gypsies" in indonesia
Sea Gypsies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Ajesh

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They should be repartited back to India. The Reason they dont know their history is because they were part of the Migrations after Ghaznavi and co defeated Rajputs. And as we know, the defeated person do not share their history...
 

Soul83

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both your posts are well appreciated
it's the subconscious, perhaps, that is bothering me a little and i dont think it's an
emotional response, suggesting that im being incorrect and if leaders listened to the same,
we wouldn't have half the problems we do., so if i don't have COMPLETE, PERFECT, knowledge
on a subject, i will not pretend to, ....... after all who knows it all ?
besides Almighty, only those who are fake-ing it .

the Indian element is much stronger than the 8% i had earlier stated
but there has been some mixing and as we accept anglo-indian and indeed our rahul,
so we must accept other mixing as well

as for the brutality caused to Romani - i had made it very clear in two earlier posts that i strongly
condemned it and we would stand with Romani people just as we would help any other oppressed
people on a human rights basis and demand that others nations help too .

but as my understanding is changing i now say ok we accept Romani as indian -
is there going to be a basis ? if so what ?
let me suggest some criteria - and forum members can add , delete or modify :-

(1) they shall want to be identified as indian - we are assuming that all Romani want that
is it true ? some, indeed many , may prefer to be absorbed into the euro communities they already are in and
avoid being identified as an indian imigrant but rather as a local person ?
(2) they shall support india in any and all india -pak rivalry
(3) they can remain neutral in any altercation between India and their host nation - eg Quattrochi affair, Italian Marines affair etc.
(4) they should increase their absorption of Indian culture to be noticeably more Indian
(5) they should attempt to restore links and communication with people in india

are these realistic ? well i can think of those 5 above, you can add, modify or delete as you see fit .

i am hoping that eastern and western Romani can have an autonomous region each - then they
could more realistically implement these reforms and more importantly better look after their communities . The autonomy should be only in the areas of he basic levels of education eg primary and secondary schooling but for university they go where all citizens do, ( this is because most bullying occurs at the childish ages ) culture and civilian policing with support from the home state, the United Nations and any organisation or state which wishes to contribute. . .
i think they should have two citizenships like american or european jews, but i dont know if europeans would allow that, or at least pio card from india etc. and india should write in constitution that roma people are a group of people who are of indian origins etc. like about anglo-indians. also roma look more "average" ndian then rahul ghandi

rahul ghandi (he looks southern european to me or lebanese)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/Rahul_Gandhi_1.jpg

random roma (indobrachid)
http://www.csmonitor.com/var/archiv...S/0906-DTRUMPETS-VERT-Horn-Music_full_600.jpg

also maybe they should form their own country, but have good relations with india etc. and acknowledge a indian origin etc. and become associate of india, similar as a indian state like tamil nadu etc.
 

Ajesh

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They are a lost bunch of people, they dont know much about their history themselves. Its out duty to Help and Repatriate them.. You should remember their ancestors have served Us at one time.
 

Ajesh

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indira ghandi was quiete pro-roma. since then no indian politician concerned himself with the roma anymore. im curious which party of political group in india cares the most about roma, or are there any at all? do you personally think of roma as kin, and what would you say if a roma wanted to marry your daughter?

By the Way, Are you a Romani yourself? Just Curious

They were a well respected when they were in India and they were well taken care by the Indian Kings. Thats why they have strong allegiance to India even Today. And thats why they dont feel the strong urge to integrate into Europe.

I would take them back in a Second if i was in Charge.
 

roma

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...... also maybe they should form their own country, but have good relations with india etc. and acknowledge a indian origin etc. and become associate of india, similar as a indian state like tamil nadu etc.
one has to have determination like the Israelis :-.
some form of limited autonomy within present boundaries might be easier to be achieve rather than a separate country ...i.e. petition the United Nations, with support from nations like India, Armenia, Georgia, perhaps turkey
and some Balkan NGO's to acknowledge the fact of discrimination .... so you can get funding
for own schools and some limited autonomy in education , policing , cultural organizations

that will strengthen the levels of educational and professionals within the community -
and from there take it a step at a time if it is really necessary to do more ?

Then Romani organizations from one country can link with those from another and for a pan-euro Romani
organization and have a greater say to upgrade the lives of the people include perhaps linking with India
and indeed other nations as you have suggested . How about Romani organizations in the USA, they might
give advice ?

whichever way you finally chose to go about it, one thing is rather certain - doing it alone is gonna be near
impossible - forming an organization gets more done, quicker as you have some mass to help your cause
Even Gandhi wasn't a one man phenomenon in the sense that he rallied the support of tens of millions of people
behind him,

it may seems like an uphill struggle and a long road ahead but you are certainly in a better
starting point than when India was rudely thrown into independence in 1947
 
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Soul83

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By the Way, Are you a Romani yourself? Just Curious

They were a well respected when they were in India and they were well taken care by the Indian Kings. Thats why they have strong allegiance to India even Today. And thats why they dont feel the strong urge to integrate into Europe.

I would take them back in a Second if i was in Charge.
yes im roma myself
 

Ajesh

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yes im roma myself
Many of the men belonged to the kshatriya Class, warrior class,

So if the Europeans try to mess with you, just kick their ass dude, Always remember your heritage man

What about the woman, I heard they were well trained Classical dancers

Do they still remember or practise?
 

Soul83

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shoulld i organise a petition, that romani people are recognised as PIO (Person of Indian Origin) and as Asiatic/Southasiatic Race?
and then mail that petition to narendra modi or the indian parliament etc.
also how could i reach all the romani people to vote for my petition and how could i reach indians to vote for my petition
should i set up a online poll.

what do you think, any tips, helps etc.
 

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