Do we require a coherent overarching national energy policy ?

Singh

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Sir, repercussions of too much reliance on hydroelectric projects was recently witnessed. Highly debatable.
1. Hydroelectric projects alone are not to be blamed. And states like Arunachal Pradesh for eg. has huge potential and minimal population. And any state with rivers can use river mill projects.
2. We should use thermal power aggressively, if the world cries give us soft loans to shift to nuclear power
3. Nuclear Power


Electric cars may not be so green after all, says British study

The fact is, per mile driven, it's more efficient to store the carbon on site and burn as needed, than it is to burn it in a plant and transmit the resultant energy down electric power lines.

Most reputed source:

ELECTRIC CARS, DESPITE THEIR SUPPOSED GREEN CREDENTIALS, ARE AMONG THE ENVIRONMENTALLY DIRTIEST TRANSPORTATION OPTIONS, A U.S. RESEARCHER SUGGESTS.
Finally, a practical laymen perspective:

Electric-car costs can outweigh cheap fuel
I talked about bikes, not cars.

There are a few reasons why electric bikes are preferred, they will be limited for nearby jaunts, forcing bike owners to use public transport over large distances. You can't put 3000$ batteries in bikes.

refer to above sources.
In Kathmandu they have electrified bus, in Delhi we have electrified *edit* metro, in many of the worlds cities they have trams
Have you see BRT corridors worldwide ? They can easily be electrified to create a neo-tram-bus hybrid.

In Indian context, next to impossible & highly undesirable.
Why impossibe and undesirable ? Will it cost more than *edit* 1 TRILLION $ ? If not then its desirable and possible. Perhaps in the hills diesel toy trains can be used.

Edit: 3million bbl/day is our requirement of oil per day, and only increasing every year. At 100$ a bbl over a decade it will be over a trillion $

Absolutely, but focus must be non-conventional sources of energy, which are not necessarily unproven or uneconomical, anymore.
Why ? Why?
We have billions of tonnes of coal, it can last us centuries. Pollution be damned. We don't even pollute 10% of US and China.
We have access to nuclear power, build plants.
We can utilise hydroelectric potential (in conjuction with river linking project).
No need to go in for unconvential 100MW projects when we can pursue 100,000MW projects.

Yes, our sub-continental sea-shelf holds huge potential, which remains to be exploited.
Finally.
 

trackwhack

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1. Hydroelectric projects alone are not to be blamed. And states like Arunachal Pradesh for eg. has huge potential and minimal population. And any state with rivers can use river mill projects.
2. We should use thermal power aggressively, if the world cries give us soft loans to shift to nuclear power
3. Nuclear Power
I talked about bikes, not cars.

There are a few reasons why electric bikes are preferred, they will be limited for nearby jaunts, forcing bike owners to use public transport over large distances. You can't put 3000$ batteries in bikes.



In Kathmandu they have electrified bus, in Delhi we have electrified buses, in many of the worlds cities they have trams
Have you see BRT corridors worldwide ? They can easily be electrified to create a neo-tram-bus hybrid.



Why impossibe and undesirable ? Will it cost more than 6-800billion$ ? If not then its desirable and possible. Perhaps in the hills diesel toy trains can be used.



Why ? Why?
We have billions of tonnes of coal, it can last us centuries. Pollution be damned. We don't even pollute 10% of US and China.
We have access to nuclear power, build plants.
We can utilise hydroelectric potential (in conjuction with river linking project).
No need to go in for unconvential 100MW projects when we can pursue 100,000MW projects.



Finally.
What a post.

Energy and water have to go hand in hand. River interlinking and new storage systems are feasible and a no brainer. Storage feasibility of water in Rajasthan, MP, Andra and Gujarat is unlimited. About 80% of our monsoon water is drained into the ocean by the end of November every year. Even if we could reduce that to near 60% through more storage system and interlinking canals, we would become a water surplus nation. And would be able to avoid floods rather than cause them as we are led to believe.
 

trackwhack

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No need to go in for unconvential 100MW projects when we can pursue 100,000MW projects.
I would say rather no power plant less than 1000 MW should be on central grids. It should only be a standalone grid for a smaller urban + semi urban area. The counter argument of backup is addressed by building two separate power stations capable of meeting 50% of demand individually. So any downtime will result only in a temporary squeeze which can be addressed through power cuts.
 

pmaitra

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I have fixed the two post before the one above, of the misplaced quotes. Please let me know if everything is right now.
@Singh, @trackwhack
 
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Tolaha

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@Rage: Thanks for the tag, but to be honest, most of @The Vikas Sharma's posts went above my head! :) The only thing that I have issue with, is the usage of batteries as part of a grid. Using batteries in automobiles is one thing, but doing the same on a grid level seemed far-fetched. Imagine the size of the batteries! Did a google search and apparently, it turns out to have been POC'd already, so I'm wrong already! Still find it tough to imagine the kind of batteries that would be required to implement this on a larger scale!
 
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Singh

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I would say rather no power plant less than 1000 MW should be on central grids. It should only be a standalone grid for a smaller urban + semi urban area. The counter argument of backup is addressed by building two separate power stations capable of meeting 50% of demand individually. So any downtime will result only in a temporary squeeze which can be addressed through power cuts.
They should be isolated in that sense Central Grid is not responsible for them.

If those standalone grids have a slump in demand or supply, they can sell or buy from the central grid.

Same with industries, if an industry's peak demand is 100MW, they will get a 100MW plant, they should be allowed to sell the excessive power to the Central Grid.

Also promote buying of electricity. If you are using electricity just for testing etc. and not consuming it, you should be able to sell it back.

Then we can have peak rates and off peak rates. Night markets can be encouraged, call centres with cheaper rates etc. Energy Intensive industries can operate at times where they can be competitive without pressuring central grid.
 

Singh

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@Rage: Thanks for the tag, but to be honest, most of @The Vikas Sharma's posts went above my head! :) The only thing that I have issue with, is the usage of batteries as part of a grid. Using batteries in automobiles is one thing, but doing the same on a grid level seemed far-fetched. Imagine the size of the batteries! Did a google search and apparently, it turns out to have been POC'd already, so I'm wrong already! Still find it tough to imagine the kind of batteries that would be required to implement this on a larger scale!
There is a 1 (10?) MW Capacitor battery plant in California used during peak hours. But if you look at the difference between electricity consumption per capita in US and India, and the increase demand such novel, innovative and uber expensive experiments are not for us.

We need cheap plentiful power, global warming be damned for the moment. Look at US, China, Japan, Germany they are energy intensive nations and which is a strong causative factor for their economic prowess.
 
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trackwhack

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@Tolaha

Since you are in Bengaluru, please viisit the Capacitor Research Centre opposite Sadashivanagar Police Station. It will blow you mind away.

Also there are other storage methods like pumped storage systems.
 
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The Vikas Sharma

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Let me share some impressions about battery energy storage systems. While Pumped Hydro, Compressed Air and Flywheel storage systems are well accepted in US and Europe, it is a battery energy storage system which serves both individuals as well as the grid. Lead Acid chemistry is the oldest and more most mature. It is suited for a large number of applications. And it costs around $200 per kWh. But comparison with other chemistries like Lithium Ion, Zinc - Bromine, various Flow Battery chemistries, zinc/Magnesum-Air, Sodium-Sulphur etc should also take into account the no of cycles and depth of discharge. only Lithium Ion chemistries are any real competition to lead acid at personal as well as grid levels.
Grid storage systems including Supercapacitors serve to integrate renewables smoothly with the power grid, reduce the requirement of peaking power plants and maintain grid frequency in face of transient demands. They take on the initial peaking load before the gas-fired/pumped hydro peak load plants start generating in response to increased demand. In a smartgrid this is automated. Smart Microgrid replicates this at a more personal level, e.g., house, neighbourhood, vehicle based system etc.
It goes over the head initially. But some time on Wikipedia gets you up and running in no time.
 

Rage

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Just my take on the subject @The Vikas Sharma has started:

I think Smartgrids are the way of the future and have potential application in everything from defence to electrifying out-of-grid villages.

Imagine replacing the entire power network of diesel generators and T&D lines of Forward Operating Bases (FOB's) in both the Himalayas and the plains. Imagine having energy security no matter what happens to the larger energy grid or within the theatre of war. Imagine greater tactical and strategic flexibility during a conflict scenario because we won't have to rely on petrol or diesel supplies through expensive and often disruptable logistics. A smart, scalable, ruggedised cyber-secure military microgrid could achieve just that.

The peacetime implications of this not-unheard of technology could themselves be profound: everything from less reliance on oil imports from a volatile ME region to less use of fossil fuels in the energy mix, a better ecology through more judicious renewables use or a better economy through a smaller fiscal deficit, greater foreign policy flexibility, greater Savings on the Armed forces energy bill and to the exchequer, the virtual annihilation of a ruthless oil mafia that the Petroleum Minister, himself, has come to fear and drastically reduced inflationary pressures that allow for greater flexibility in monetary policy. Could this be our one silver bullet?

Smartgrids are not new. The US, China, UK and France have been working on them for some time now, with the US being, by far, the most advanced. Microgrids are not new even to India, with two already installed under a pilot scheme, under Mr. Sam Pitroda, in rural Maharashtra. But, why haven't they taken off? Because they have not genuinely, I've felt, been technologically and physically adapted as a turnkey solution to any space.

Sustainable Energy technologies of the US has now been awarded a contract to help demonstrate a type of new intelligent, scalable microgrid solution for the US Army. Essentially they are AC coupled microgrids that permit stochastic generation by incorporating low-voltage battery power in scalable architecture- to provide in a sense 'turnkey" power sourcing for a variety of military applications :

Sustainable Energy to deliver inverters for US Army's scalable microgrids - Army Technology
http://e2rg.com/microgrid-2012/Sandia_Guttromson_Glover.pdf

If such a smartgrid could be developed in India, the revolutionary consequences of these would profound; and that is exactly what I think @The Vikas Sharma is proposing. yes, the initial investment would be large. But, if there was ever an opportune moment to do it, now would be it: particularly in light of the widening fiscal deficit, the curtailment of the Armed Forces' fuel bill by the MoD and the raising of a new Mountain Strike Corps that will be deployed in the Himalayan regions. The range of potential applications is myraiad and staggering. Infact, while the US Military aims for an expected 54.8 MW capacity for microgrids by 2018, the projected requirements for Indian use for both static and mobile applications, could be as much as 0.5GW if the range of SOEs and DPSUs as potential clients is taken into consideration; and why not when they could benefit just as equally or even more. Institutes like TERI could be at the forefront of this proposition; and if it comes to fruition, it could mark the beginning of a new econo-military-industrial revolution.
 
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TrueSpirit

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1. Hydroelectric projects alone are not to be blamed. And states like Arunachal Pradesh for eg. has huge potential and minimal population. And any state with rivers can use river mill projects.
At least, you agree that Hydroelectric projects are also to be blamed. Big Dams are ecological disasters in themselves. We need not blindly emulate China in destroying the ecology we have to live in, since the short-term benefits accrued would simply not be enough to compensate for the cataclysmic consequences that would inevitably follow.

The Shivaliks are a highly sensitive zone & Himalaya as a whole being a young-fold range, is especially prone to natural disasters. The hydro-electric potential is India is highly over-hyped & miscalculated. It does not take into account what can be safely exploited & what can be disastrous. Instead of thoughtlessly aping old model, we need to be tread cautiously in hydro-electric projects.

2. We should use thermal power aggressively, if the world cries give us soft loans to shift to nuclear power
Not necessarily, especially in the long-term. Despite the gestation period & safety concerns, nuclear power is lot more sustainable & much less polluting as a whole.

I talked about bikes, not cars.

There are a few reasons why electric bikes are preferred, they will be limited for nearby jaunts, forcing bike owners to use public transport over large distances. You can't put 3000$ batteries in bikes.
Does it matters ? Electric vehicles need not make more sense, on a national-level. The cost of electricity generation for charging bikes can be huge & not enough studies have been conducted yet to take a decision in the favour of electrification all LMV's.

Have you see BRT corridors worldwide ?
Developed nations have a sizeable proportion of nuclear energy & multiple non-conventional sources as well. Further, their needs are nothing compared to ours (given the requirement & size of our fleets). Population difference between puny EU states & India have to be accounted for.

Aren't we overlooking simply everything, including the basics ?

They can easily be electrified to create a neo-tram-bus hybrid.
Can easily be, but should we ? Our electricity transmission & distribution losses are massive (actually among the highest in the world). Most if it is going to be wasted/stolen/unpaid/leaked anyway. No point is electrifying BRT corridors.

Why impossibe and undesirable ?
Reason already shared above. Practical constraints, so it is avoidable. Lot of existing infrastructure needs to strengthened if we are to proceed in this direction & then too, it would be done in a very gradual manner. Our means, when it comes to usable power, are pathetically limited & would continue to remain so unless we expedite our nuclear projects.

Will it cost more than *edit* 1 TRILLION $ ? If not then its desirable and possible.
Edit: 3million bbl/day is our requirement of oil per day, and only increasing every year. At 100$ a bbl over a decade it will be over a trillion $

Affordable.
Accessible.
Available.

We are wasting precious ForEx in the process of importing crude oil; it has disastrous effect on foreign policy etc. etc. Despite all other arguments against it, crude oil remains a practical option & would continue to remain so in future.

We have billions of tonnes of coal, it can last us centuries
.

No, not with present level of increase in consumption rate which is only going to increase further.

Pollution be damned. We don't even pollute 10% of US and China.
No, a nation with population density & the healthcare system (which is inaccessible to more than half of population) that India has, cannot & would not ignore pollution. Our population density, especially in the cities & towns (even though lower than some EU nations) cannot afford Chinese level of smog. It would be a Healthcare disaster. As I maintain, no need to ape Chines everywhere.

We have access to nuclear power, build plants.
We are too slow on this. This has to be the single-biggest focus for a better tomorrow. Though it wont fetch vote for the govt. in power. Only later govt's would benefit out of it.

We can utilise hydroelectric potential (in conjuction with river linking project).
River linking project sounds very glamorous & appeals to many. But, it is not a simplistic concept.

Not enough studies yet conducted. Pros & cons have not been evaluated yet. Nation-wide debate is needed for start on this, if even it delays the project take-off.

We are talking about putting the existence of around 1.5 billion people at stake.

No need to go in for unconvential 100MW projects when we can pursue 100,000MW projects.
With Indian quality of governance, with India's present means & needs in the hindsight & the constraints our nation operates in (e.g. with T&D losses upto 50% in certain grids), a multitude of 100MW projects make complete sense (even from a file clearance perspective, quickly commissioned), rather than 100,000MW projects (less practical given our economy, means, governance & half of whose output is going to be wasted, anyway).
 
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TrueSpirit

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What a post.

Energy and water have to go hand in hand. River interlinking and new storage systems are feasible and a no brainer. Storage feasibility of water in Rajasthan, MP, Andra and Gujarat is unlimited. About 80% of our monsoon water is drained into the ocean by the end of November every year. Even if we could reduce that to near 60% through more storage system and interlinking canals, we would become a water surplus nation. And would be able to avoid floods rather than cause them as we are led to believe.
Instead of what you propose, I would suggest going with the basics: Large-scale, mandatory water-harvesting & storage mechanism all across.

interlinking canals is not as simple as it seems & has lots of associated concerns, best left for the experts to contemplate upon. Large-scale irrigation projects are often problematic (think, human displacement, ecology damage etc.). Damage can never be reversed or fixed or compensated enough (especially, in India).

Think of the 3 biggest rivers in world & find out how may hydro-electric projects have been commissioned on them, yet.

It is common wisdom now (especially, among the domain experts & you would find the same being aired in respected journals like Nature, as well), that the days Big-Dam projects are numbered.

Such projects are passe, simply due to the reason that damages massively out-weigh the short-term benefits.
 
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trackwhack

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Instead of what you propose, I would suggest going with the basics: Large-scale, mandatory water-harvesting & storage mechanism all across.

interlinking canals is not as simple as it seems & has lots of associated concerns, best left for the experts to contemplate upon. Large-scale irrigation projects are often problematic (think, human displacement, ecology damage etc.). Damage can never be reversed or fixed or compensated enough (especially, in India).

Think of the 3 biggest rivers in world & find out how may hydro-electric projects have been commissioned on them, yet.

It is common wisdom now (especially, among the domain experts & you would find the same being aired in respected journals like Nature, as well), that the days Big-Dam projects are numbered.

Such projects are passe, simply due to the reason that damages massively out-weigh the short-term benefits.
We need river interlinking because we are a water deficient country as of today, not because we need hydroelectricity. Energy can only be looked at as a byproduct. More than half the arable land in the country is one crop per year.
 

The Vikas Sharma

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@Rage : Thanks for the lucid description.I couldn't have summed it better.
A minor correction. Sam Pitroda had approved 8 Pilot Smart Grid projects to be rolled out in India, two of which are under execution in Maharashtra. Siemens is one company involved in this. Rural microgrids are several in number and being rolled out under aegis Ministry of Rural Development, Ministry of Power and Ministry of New and renewable Energy. USAID has a functional PACE-D program supporting MNRE. While Hydro is renewable energy, it is a mainstream segment under Ministry of Power. New Energy is basically Solar, Wind and Biomass/Biogas. Geothermal and Small Hydro form the Renewable Energy portfolio of MNRE.

I have requested the Microgrid practitioners and professionals in India to visit this thread and comment. I hope they can add to what we know. I hope Dr Rahul Walawalkar can contribute if he finds time.
 
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TrueSpirit

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We need river interlinking because we are a water deficient country as of today, not because we need hydroelectricity. Energy can only be looked at as a byproduct. More than half the arable land in the country is one crop per year.
Same reply:

Instead of what you propose, I would suggest going with the basics: Large-scale, mandatory water-harvesting & storage mechanism all across.

interlinking canals is not as simple as it seems & has lots of associated concerns, best left for the experts to contemplate upon. Large-scale irrigation projects are often problematic (think, human displacement, ecology damage etc.). Damage can never be reversed or fixed or compensated enough (especially, in India).
 

The Vikas Sharma

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Just received a message from Michael Roach from US. He suggests we explore the Library section of www dot microgridhorizons dotcom for information on Military Microgrids in particular. (Can't post links or upload files).
 

Yusuf

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I humbly thank everyone and DFI in particular to give visibility to an important issue which would not otherwise qualify for mainstream news coverage against cricket, politics and entertainment.
I now wish to draw attention to a renewable energy tool which goes by the name of 'Small Wind'. In Indian context, there is nothing small about the potential of Small Wind Turbine for household electricity generation in wind rich regions, especially coastal areas, islands, mountain villages and peninsular India. Wind turbines maybe Horizontal Axis (HAWTs) or Vertical Axis (VAWTs). I personally prefer VAWTs as they are suited for habitation and don't kill birds. They also make lesser noise and deal with turbulent airflow better. I would love to see high quality WTs of the kind WINDSIDE sells everywhere (except India). If Govt introduces Feed-in-Tariffs for domestic consumers, small wind could become as ubiquitous as a DTH antenna. Wind power costs a fourth of solar power. But the initial cost of a battery storage system is a deterrent for any ordinary consumer. Govt organisations are best suited to utilize small wind in immediate term apart from telecom tower companies. I recommend all to do some research and see for themselves that there is no dearth of good products to help us cut down on fossil fuels. I consider a Small Wind Turbine (SWT) as an essential component of any off grid Microgrid system.


I was going to post about this. Someone told me that a German company in India is offering small wind turbines for houses. I could not get details of it but IIRC it works of vertical axis unlike traditional big wind mills.

Wind and solar power can change the power situation dramatically. In south India,cities like Bangalore in particular, lot of ppl installed solar powered water heaters. Its got huge penetration. But solar power for electricity generation is still very expensive. I asked for my building of 4 flats. Required 8-10L of capital investment
 

TrueSpirit

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@Singh, @trackwhack: As @tramp has recently said in the electric cars threads & I have maintained all along:

India cannot aspire for an electricity based transportation revolution without revolutionizing power generation and transmission sectors.
 
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TrueSpirit

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I was going to post about this. Someone told me that a German company in India is offering small wind turbines for houses. I could not get details of it but IIRC it works of vertical axis unlike traditional big wind mills.

Wind and solar power can change the power situation dramatically. In south India,cities like Bangalore in particular, lot of ppl installed solar powered water heaters. Its got huge penetration. But solar power for electricity generation is still very expensive. I asked for my building of 4 flats. Required 8-10L of capital investment
Yes Yusuf, in Uttranachal & Himachal, solar powered geysers (entire water supply), & solar-powered illumination devices are very common. Present even in the most remote of locations & distant, inaccessible villages, where electricity lines have either not reached or not reliable enough, like in Munsyari, Chopta & entire Kinnaur region in HP.
 

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