DM: Forces repeatedly changing requirements for Indian weapons

[Mad Indian]

Why do you say so? Can you give examples.

No organization is perfect or ever can be perfect. People have to learn to WORK together for the betterment of the country.

DRDO is needed as much as army or air force. It is essential.

My friends in DRDO say it is a pathetic organisation with a pathetic work culture typical of any Govt office in India.

But go ahead, claim some dumb shit about the equipment Army of India should use, because obviously you know what is better for the armed forces than they do, because because because you read it in the internet?

and defence minister makes the same retarded claim about changing GSQR that the arjun brigade often makes. Of course it changes damn it, its part of technological improvement

 

[Mad Indian]

The biggest irony of India is that people who oppose buying from private sector in India freely support buying from private sector of foreign countries. What kind of socialism is this??

Our socialist are so hollow that socialism equates to shunning work and militant politics. What is the achievement of Indian socialism?? A country that teetered on the verge of collapse by late eighties. Humiliated by small neighbors. What else??

What a bunch of strawman BS. No one here is against purchasing it from private players - be it Indian or Foreign. The only thing that matters is the the requirements of the armed forces. But then again, you know more about what Indian army needs than the Indian army itself because you are a nationalist

A proud country is one that develops its industry and educates and feeds its people. I still consider USSR as a great country due to its achievements though its faults led to its early demise.

India is a large country and only fools think that India cannot build its arms.

Only fools will believe India can do it in the first try and that we should fight with our first built guns even if they are subpar- because ---- men in the armed forces. So long as your ego of fighting with Indigenous weapons are satisfied, it is well justified to equip them with subpar weaponry

 

[sgarg]

My friends in DRDO say it is a pathetic organisation with a pathetic work culture typical of any Govt office in India.

But go ahead, claim some dumb shit about the equipment Army of India should use, because obviously you know what is better for the armed forces than they do, because because because you read it in the internet?

and defence minister makes the same retarded claim about changing GSQR that the arjun brigade often makes. Of course it changes damn it, its part of technological improvement

I understand defence minister is good for you if he speaks what you want; else he is retarded.

What is your qualifications and achievements by the way as you pass judgement on others??

Show me specific instances of your interaction with DRDO or "your friends" rather then generalizations to prove your allegations?

 

[Ray]

Why do you say so? Can you give examples.

No organization is perfect or ever can be perfect. People have to learn to WORK together for the betterment of the country.

DRDO is needed as much as army or air force. It is essential.

The Military requires the DRDO more than the DRDO requiring the military.

When in war, the foreign countries impose sanctions, it is the military men who die. Not the DRDO men. Get that clear in your muddled and confused mind.

But the military requires equipment that are not dud that make idiots who do not fight but crow about Indian nationalism pleases. It is their lives and not the lives of idiotic folks with pseudo nationalist jingoism that does not deliver.

Corruption in India's Defence Deals: A Case Study on Business and Government Ethics | Chakraborty | TIJ's Research Journal of Social Science & Management - RJSSM

I suggest the above is a good read.

Good read to please pseudo nationalist mind.

Read between the lines

The biggest irony of India is that people who oppose buying from private sector in India freely support buying from private sector of foreign countries. What kind of socialism is this??

Socialism?

It has left India way behind.

Indian private sector delivers and IA will be the first to buy.

The Indian Army fleet is all TATA and LEYLAND. All Indian. And way before you were possibly born given the immaturity that overwhelms you.

Our socialist are so hollow that socialism equates to shunning work and militant politics. What is the achievement of Indian socialism?? A country that teetered on the verge of collapse by late eighties. Humiliated by small neighbors. What else??

Good to see that good sense has finally prevailed on you.

A proud country is one that develops its industry and educates and feeds its people. I still consider USSR as a great country due to its achievements though its faults led to its early demise.

You bet it.

USSR did well, but it overreached and failed.

Stupidity in only thinking that one should buy India even if that is sh1t will go the USSR way and small countries around will prevail and China will swamp. Maybe that is your aim.

India is a large country and only fools think that India cannot build its arms.

They can.

Who stopped them?

 

[sgarg]

Only fools will believe India can do it in the first try and that we should fight with our first built guns even if they are subpar- because ---- men in the armed forces. So long as your ego of fighting with Indigenous weapons are satisfied, it is well justified to equip them with subpar weaponry

Who says you have to do right in the first try? Each product evolves over time. Rather than discussing here with the same foolish comments; study how defence products are designed, developed and produced in other countries.

The difference between strong and weak countries is the INDUSTRIAL CAPABILITY, not manpower.

 

[Mad Indian]

I understand defence minister is good for you if he speaks what you want; else he is retarded.

I understand that you dodged the point with this strawman. The point is "Requirements change with time because the needs change with time- aka technological progress" , and it the defence minister cant recognise this- he is stupid. Of course what else can the Arjun brigade do without strawmans?

What is your qualifications and achievements by the way as you pass judgement on others??

My qualification is that I am a tax paying citizen of India and I have full right to judge the scumbags who take my tax money and sit/shit on it without delivering their work like the DRDO does

Show me specific instances of your interaction with DRDO or "your friends" rather then generalizations to prove your allegations?

The work culture is very apparent to anyone following any defence news. The developmental delays that take place in DRDO take place because of a reason.

 

[Mad Indian]

Who says you have to do right in the first try? Each product evolves over time. Rather than discussing here with the same foolish comments; study how defence products are designed, developed and produced in other countries.

The difference between strong and weak countries is the INDUSTRIAL CAPABILITY, not manpower.

Complete strawman again. I am not surprised. I never claimed that we should do it the first time. They can try and work and develop till they deliver the best "atleast on par" with the foreign counterparts

Now how about answering why Army should not buy what it wants and needs , instead of satisfying your ego of "indigenous weapons, ---- yeah"?

 

[Ray]

Complete strawman again. I am not surprised. I never claimed that we should do it the first time. They can try and work and develop till they deliver the best "atleast on par" with the foreign counterparts

Now how about answering why Army should not buy what it wants and needs , instead of satisfying your ego of "indigenous weapons, ---- yeah"?

@sgarg,
@Mad Indian is not a military man.

But can you answer what he says?

BTW, do you use foreign stuff or totally indigenous?

Who supplies you your toothpaste?

The ash from your chullah?

When you are sick, do you go to the juri booti chap?

 

[grampiguy]

Really? Please give links to say so.
Very clever.
Punjab!
What about the Thar, where the tanks will make the difference in territory captured?
Punjab is the plains. Much harder ground. Pattons have operated. So?

@Ray,

Your argument that Arjun is not good for Thar desert is incorrect and not based on facts.

You like facts and pictures and I agree with you that one picture is better than 1000 words. So let me show you some of the heaviest 65+ ton tanks (of the western world including Israel) in SOFT-AKA-MOON SAND.

These pictures may make you rethink on your theory on Arjun's suitability for the Thar desert !!! You do realize that your arguments are incorrect. @sgarg and others are basically quoting from CAG's latest report where it was described in detail how Indian Army scuttled Arjun Tank's development and even the production in HVF. You may be one of the very few left now who are still defending Indian Army's choice for T-90s against Arjun.

 

[Ray]

@Ray,

Your argument that Arjun is not good for Thar desert is incorrect and not based on facts.

You like facts and pictures and I agree with you that one picture is better than 1000 words. So let me show you some of the heaviest 65+ ton tanks (of the western world including Israel) in SOFT-AKA-MOON SAND.

These pictures may make you rethink on your theory on Arjun's suitability for the Thar desert !!! You do realize that your arguments are incorrect. @sgarg and others are basically quoting from CAG's latest report where it was described in detail how Indian Army scuttled Arjun Tank's development and even the production in HVF. You may be one of the very few left now who are still defending Indian Army's choice for T-90s against Arjun.

If what I say is incorrect, then please prove it.

The pictures can be from areas that have firm sand.

So, it will please you but would it those who will have to fight and use the weapon?

Being on ground and having experience is believing.

Just an illustration

The much touted best Army of the world in your 'Moon sand' of Afghanistan!

My experience in the Thar is not from the internet like your, if you don't mind.

 

[grampiguy]

@Ray,

Naah !! I have posted the pictures. I rest my case. The saying is " you can wake up a sleeping man. But you can't wake up the one who is pretending to sleep."

 

[Ray]

@Ray,

Naah !! I have posted the pictures. I rest my case. The saying is " you can wake up a sleeping man. But you can't wake up the one who is pretending to sleep."

True. You can't wake a man who speaks from Internet photos.

He has to walk the Thar as others do.

Then only he will realise.

So, walk the Thar please.

I had to, much that it was a great ordeal and total discomfort and gruelling.

I took my whole family and grandchildren to do so, when I had gone for the Anniversary of my unit. so that they realise it is fine to read about deserts, but the experience is a total different ball game.

 

[sgarg]

I understand that you dodged the point with this strawman. The point is "Requirements change with time because the needs change with time- aka technological progress" , and it the defence minister cant recognise this- he is stupid. Of course what else can the Arjun brigade do without strawmans?
My qualification is that I am a tax paying citizen of India and I have full right to judge the scumbags who take my tax money and sit/shit on it without delivering their work like the DRDO does
The work culture is very apparent to anyone following any defence news. The developmental delays that take place in DRDO take place because of a reason.

What have you delivered - anything in your life - ever? Which makes you an expert? This is what I want to know.

How do I know you are not a scumbag calling other names?

The people who have delivered nothing themselves - what do they know about R&D?
I hope my point is clear to you.

If you are a fighting man, I cannot argue about your knowledge of tactics. If I am a man of science, you cannot argue about my knowledge of science, unless you are both.

The government suffers from a lack of accountability. It is happening in every branch. DRDO is no exception. However things are changing and the change must be welcomed.

 

[Mad Indian]

What have you delivered - anything in your life - ever? Which makes you an expert? This is what I want to know.

I have delivered my duty as a tax payer- pay taxes. Now its about time DRDO deliver its duty. And stop with the strawmans

How do I know you are not a scumbag calling other names?

Now this is an adhominem attack. It does not matter if I am a scumbag or not. DRDO is not delivering its projects in time and it is scumbag for that reason.

The people who have delivered nothing themselves - what do they know about R&D?
I hope my point is clear to you.

More crap and to be specific, this is the classic "appeal to authority fallacy", .ie "claiming your opponent is no expert on the subject and so his argument is invalid". Seriously, can you counter the arguments given here without any strawmans, adhominems and fallacies?

For example, you dont have to be a doctor to judge an obvious case of "negligence" by other doctors. I dont have to be an expert on R&D field to judge if the R&D is happening at the speed that "they themselves" claim is true or not

So, now, tell me why has the DRDO not delivered its projects in time?

If you are a fighting man, I cannot argue about your knowledge of tactics. If I am a man of science, you cannot argue about my knowledge of science, unless you are both.

Again, argument to authority fallacy. The topic requires no technical expertise since the topic is the delays done by DRDO in meeting the date they themselves set.

The government suffers from a lack of accountability. It is happening in every branch. DRDO is no exception. However things are changing and the change must be welcomed.

SO shut the up till DRDO changes for the better and let Army do what it wants to arm itself until then. Stop supporting such a pathetic organisation over the our armed forces. DRDO scumbags are not the ones risking their lives for our country .

 

[Mad Indian]

RANT ON//

DFI is turning into an "Arjun Brigade echo chamber", where the half assed arguments are echoed over and over until it becomes the truth. They dont win arguments by actually presenting a valid argument but rather make strawmans and nonsense and they tire the opponents out with their sheer numbers. This is my last post regarding this matter in this thread as I have neither energy nor interest in such useless activities. The arjun brigade can live in whatever lala land they wish to live in.

I wish sane heads like @p2prada were here//

RANT OFF

 

[Pulkit]

HaHa!!! @p2prada where are you your loved ones are missing you.
&
Mad Indian Its no longer us who are saying this CAG has said it which is documented evaluated assessed.
I will suggest you to reason with facts and not with love for import products and hate towards Domestic products .

you want to start from the right beginning we can do that.
BRING IT ON!!!!!!

RANT ON//

DFI is turning into an "Arjun Brigade echo chamber", where the half assed arguments are echoed over and over until it becomes the truth. They dont win arguments by actually presenting a valid argument but rather make strawmans and nonsense and they tire the opponents out with their sheer numbers. This is my last post regarding this matter in this thread as I have neither energy nor interest in such useless activities. The arjun brigade can live in whatever lala land they wish to live in.

I wish sane heads like @p2prada were here//

RANT OFF

 

[Mad Indian]

HaHa!!! @p2prada where are you your loved ones are missing you.
&
Mad Indian Its no longer us who are saying this CAG has said it which is documented evaluated assessed.
I will suggest you to reason with facts and not with love for import products and hate towards Domestic products .

you want to start from the right beginning we can do that.
BRING IT ON!!!!!!

Lets see your post on what your have written -,

1. "Its no longer us who claim that X is true and many people are also claiming X is true now and so X must be true now" - Appeal to Majority/Argumentum ad Populum fallacy.

2. "I will suggest you to reason with facts and not with love for import products and hate towards Domestic products .". No one here faulting DRDO is faulting them for being domestic. So you are attacking a Strawman "that we support imports over domestic goods just because they are imports". That is not we are saying reg DRDO. So this is the Strawman Fallacy.

3. "you want to start from the right beginning we can do that.". . In your post with three sentences, you have written two fallacious arguments. So I dont think there is any point in any "debates". You will simply come up with strawmans and fallacies just like any Arjun Brigade. I have more important work to do with my little time than to deal with Arjun Brigade in their echo chamber(DFI)

Anyway, reply to @Ray 's post no. 47.

 

[Pulkit]

@sgarg,
@Mad Indian is not a military man.

Are we are also non military ordinary tax payers

But can you answer what he says?

Yes we can but now he is hiding behind you

BTW, do you use foreign stuff or totally indigenous?

Which one are you using I will surely move to that.... FYI its a Indian brand .. Though I do use some foreign products but they dont risk my nations security it has some impact on economy but thats the price we need to pay... Defense equipments cannot be related to it

Who supplies you your toothpaste?

The ash from your chullah?

daatun is still done once a week by me....

When you are sick, do you go to the juri booti chap?

[/quote]I trust Ayurvedic and homeopathy more

@Mad Indian


Now mad Indian I have replied on the post u said will you reason now or you still want to be a war monger afraid of Arjun brigade... lol

FYI CAG is a responsible govt body .... They are not any X Y or Z

 

[Pulkit]

True. You can't wake a man who speaks from Internet photos.

He has to walk the Thar as others do.

Then only he will realise.

So, walk the Thar please.

I had to, much that it was a great ordeal and total discomfort and gruelling.

I took my whole family and grandchildren to do so, when I had gone for the Anniversary of my unit. so that they realise it is fine to read about deserts, but the experience is a total different ball game.

@Ray Sir most of us here are not from army background and many who are use the word classifed when any info is needed.
Internet is our only source and so as you quote open source .

I asked you the pressure exerted by both the tanks you simply quoted there weight and left it there .Please share the pressure as well .

Please please tell me the pressure exerted by both the tanks with a reliable source official .


I will also like to know if you think CAG and our Defense Minister are not capable enuf as in one of your earlier post you said they have no expertise /exp (Not exactly but similar to this).

 

[Mad Indian]

@Mad Indian


Now mad Indian I have replied on the post u said will you reason now or you still want to be a war monger afraid of Arjun brigade... lol

FYI CAG is a responsible govt body .... They are not any X Y or Z

CAG is just an audit and its job is only to see what is cheaper and not whether the equipment actually suits the needs of the Armed forces. Troll harder next time

And you completely missed what I was saying.