DM: Forces repeatedly changing requirements for Indian weapons

[Lions Of Punjab]

Parrikar takes dig at Armed forces for Repeatedly changing Staff requirements on Indigenous weapons systems | idrw.org

Parrikar takes dig at Armed forces for Repeatedly changing Staff requirements on Indigenous weapons systems

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar talking on the sideline of India today conclave 2015 said that he was not happy with Armed forces repeatedly changing requirements in the weapons systems currently been developed by various Public sector units, he also said that he has ensured that no more last minutes changes will be entertained hence forth once staff requirement has been defined .

Parrikar also said sometimes General Staff Qualitative Requirement (GSQR) laid down by Armed forces in the weapons systems to be developed in India seems like right out of " Marvel comic Movies ", clearly hinting that Technologies requested in Indigenous weapons systems sometimes purely is absurd and not realistic in nature . with Former Army chief Bikram Singh sitting next to him hints were clearly pointed towards Indian army .

Repeated changes in GSQR and unrealistic technology requested in the short time frame has been criticised by DRDO in past and many key projects like Arjun main battle tanks and LCA Tejas have seen delays due to repeated changes asked almost every time at last minute when weapons system is all set for production or enter user trials.

Indian Defense analytics for long have criticized Indian military planners of drafting unrealistic General Staff Qualitative Requirement (GSQR) for local weapons systems, some have even had gone on to say that sometimes GSQR framed was heavily influenced by different military brochures of International defence manufacturers .

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: DM dig at forces for Repeatedly changing requirements of Indian we

Parrikar takes dig at Armed forces for Repeatedly changing Staff requirements on Indigenous weapons systems | idrw.org

Finally an empowered educated Defence minister calls the import lobby bluff, which was long suspected as the true reason behind changing specs repeatedly, which resulted in delays in crucial projects.

 

[archie]

Re: DM dig at forces for Repeatedly changing requirements for Indian w

Finally someone who is talking sense .. please get to the root of where is the source and get some meaningful results .. Hope its just overzelousnes on part of the person setting the GSQR and not a case of "quid pro" from intrested parties

 

[pmaitra]

Looks like somebody has been reading the debates here at DFI.

I am happy with Mr. Parrikar calling the armed forces out for:

1. demanding changes at the last moment;
2. unrealistic requirements.

 

[Ray]

What is being forgotten is that GSQR change because timeframes are not met. Arjun and Tejas are prime examples.

Timeframes are important since technology changes rapidly and so does the geostrategic and geopolitical scenario.

For instance an example from modern life. Would one be satisfied with the facilities given by cell phones in the 1990s be OK in the 2015 when you have graduated to 3G? And be satisfied that the manufacturing companies are still formulating the design for manufacturing the cell phones for the 1990s requirement when the situation and requirements are different in the 2015s?

 

[Pulkit]

What is being forgotten is that GSQR change because timeframes are not met. Arjun and Tejas are prime examples.

When the GSQR are set/Fixed what time frame is kept in mind? I think they need to see for next 30-40 years ,As design can take from 15-20years and rest 15-20 yeas for usability and framing next requirement .
But our defense forces do not want to go from 1 to 10 as in 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 but what they want to jump to 10.

Even the Defense minister has said that defense forces have been changing needs very often (Arjun and Tejas are its prime examples).

Timeframes are important since technology changes rapidly and so does the geostrategic and geopolitical scenario.

Yes it is important and yes many projects have missed the time frame but in such huge projects we have a time span buffer always.
Geostrategic and Geopolitical scenario changes every day but you cannot base these projects based on scenario today you need to evaluate in based on future .
It is job of defense forces/Mod . They need to figure this out before setting GSQR and not after that.Once GSQR is set they should leave it in the hands of Developing team and stop interfering.

For instance an example from modern life. Would one be satisfied with the facilities given by cell phones in the 1990s be OK in the 2015 when you have graduated to 3G? And be satisfied that the manufacturing companies are still formulating the design for manufacturing the cell phones for the 1990s requirement when the situation and requirements are different in the 2015s?

Was not expecting this sort of comparison from you sir.
There is a life of each and every tech you cannot compare these two.
I agree that we must upgrade but in defense where it take years to get experience to design a product you need to aim higher which has to be set by Defense well in advance.

 

[pmaitra]

What is being forgotten is that GSQR change because timeframes are not met. Arjun and Tejas are prime examples.

Timeframes are important since technology changes rapidly and so does the geostrategic and geopolitical scenario.

For instance an example from modern life. Would one be satisfied with the facilities given by cell phones in the 1990s be OK in the 2015 when you have graduated to 3G? And be satisfied that the manufacturing companies are still formulating the design for manufacturing the cell phones for the 1990s requirement when the situation and requirements are different in the 2015s?

Sir, I would refer to an old post on changing requirements. Was "not meeting the timeframe" the reason why the GSQR was changed?

contd


1975 -1980

DRDO prepared the system configuration of the tank. Indigenous engine hardware was assembled and motoring test commenced by 1979. Indigenous suspension and transmission hardware was ready for development test. The main 115mm armament was developed and trials were carried out for proof at Balasore ranges. The gun system and fire control system design was configured. One prototype hull in mild steel was fabricated to check the fitment and assembly.

In April 1978, the Indian Army called DRDO for a meeting for mutual discussions. The aim was to change the GSQR No. 326. A series of meetings between DRDO and Indian Army, chaired by VCOAS resulted in change in GSQR. The new GSQR bearing the number 431 was issued in August 1982.

The changes in the GSQR No. 431 were

a)Increase in width and weight
b)110/115mm gun was to be replaced with a 120mm gun.
c)Improved Sighting and Fire Control system.

Essentially it meant creation of entirely new design and systems. A sum of Rs. 56.55 Crores was obtained mainly to cater to cater to GSQR changes and price escalation due to inflation/ rise in import costs.

The PDC of the project was revised. The first prototype was to be built by October 1980 and subsequently 12 prototypes were to be developed, one in every 6 months.

The indigenous engine and transmission evaluation on dynamometer was carried out during 1979-81.

 

[Ray]

When the GSQR are set/Fixed what time frame is kept in mind? I think they need to see for next 30-40 years ,As design can take from 15-20years and rest 15-20 yeas for usability and framing next requirement .
But our defense forces do not want to go from 1 to 10 as in 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 but what they want to jump to 10.

If one can visualise what would be the requirement 40 years hence, then he must be an astrologer.

It is just not possible.

While one can have scientific models to predict to some extent what the natural resources deposit will be still there, or how the climate may change or global warming, changes in technology over such a long period of time and the global political and strategic cannot just be predicted.

How many knew that USSR will collapse within 'x' years?

Even the Defense minister has said that defense forces have been changing needs very often (Arjun and Tejas are its prime examples).

Does he or any minister or his worthy bureaucrat any military experience or strategic vision?

if they had where is the Strategic Vision document? It is an open secret the strategy, if indeed it is a strategy, is only reactive and momentary.

Yes it is important and yes many projects have missed the time frame but in such huge projects we have a time span buffer always.
Geostrategic and Geopolitical scenario changes every day but you cannot base these projects based on scenario today you need to evaluate in based on future

.

The GSQR does not change drastically. There are mere tweaks requested and the DRDO to ensure that they be the cash cow that they are. promise everything and more......and then they fail......but convince to keep the project going and the cash cow going, alive and kicking.

It is job of defense forces/Mod . They need to figure this out before setting GSQR and not after that.Once GSQR is set they should leave it in the hands of Developing team and stop interfering.

There is a Draft GSQR and it is vetted by all concerned and then finalised. So, no one is out of the loop who matter. The military has no role once DRDO takes up, except when the prototype are put up for User Trails.

Was not expecting this sort of comparison from you sir.
There is a life of each and every tech you cannot compare these two.
I agree that we must upgrade but in defense where it take years to get experience to design a product you need to aim higher which has to be set by Defense well in advance.

What is so different of real life that affect you and the real life that affects the soldier, sailor and airmen? The only difference, is that your life is not on line because of the changes in technology, the soldier, sailor and airmens' life is on the line and hence more important and even scary.

What is aiming higher when you cannot achieve it? Can't build castles in the air, can we?

 

[Ray]

Sir, I would refer to an old post on changing requirements. Was "not meeting the timeframe" the reason why the GSQR was changed?

It is so easy to say a meeting was organised and DRDO called to the meeting and the GSQR was changed.

DRDO were called for what? To sit as dummies or give their input if it was feasible or not. Obviously, if they say that it can't be done, then would it not be stupid of anyone to put out a GSQR that cannot be translated?

It is like stating that someone tells someone to jump into a well, and that someone knows he will die, jumps in!

As I said earlier, the DRDO takes everything as an infusion of more cash for other issues expended in the name of developed.

Visit VRDE and see the best of the world's cars. They are there for research and the official ride them daily to and forth for experiencing for 'research'.

 

[pmaitra]

The GSQR does not change drastically. There are mere tweaks requested and the DRDO to ensure that they be the cash cow that they are. promise everything and more......and then they fail......but convince to keep the project going and the cash cow going, alive and kicking.

Sir, there are many, including myself, who would contend with the claim that GSQR does not change drastically.

Changing the bore from 115mm to 120mm, is not a tweak, certainly not for a rifled barrel.

There is a Draft GSQR and it is vetted by all concerned and then finalised. So, no one is out of the loop who matter. The military has no role once DRDO takes up, except when the prototype are put up for User Trails.

Sir, the Abrams' weight is 69+ tons, but folks within the army complained when Arjun's weight crept closer to the 58-59 ton mark. I would be interested in seeing a copy of the GSQR No. 326, if available in the public domain.

We cannot change the laws of physics Sir. Is there any way to vet the people preparing the draft GSQR?

 

[Ray]

Sir, there are many, including myself, who would contend with the claim that GSQR does not change drastically.

Changing the bore from 115mm to 120mm, is not a tweak, certainly not for a rifled barrel.

Fair enough.

If the DRDO lagged behind without results for years and the world technology moved to 120mm and so did our adversary, what do you think we should do? Hang around to 115?

Want India to fight outgunned?

Imagine fighting with a .303 repeat loading when the adversary has 7.62 semi or fully automatic.

You be the judge, jury and prosecutor.

Sir, the Abrams' weight is 69+ tons, but folks within the army complained when Arjun's weight crept closer to the 58-59 ton mark. I would be interested in seeing a copy of the GSQR No. 326, if available in the public domain.

We cannot change the laws of physics Sir. Is there any way to vet the people preparing the draft GSQR?

Abrahms maybe OK for the US strategic perception of their perceived battle grounds. Not for India.

Well, if you can use that type of weight in the desert and in semi soft sand, forget about soft sand, then please use it.
And don't forget the bridge classification.

GSQR are not flight of fancy gone wild. it is also vetted by the DRDO before finalised.

 

[Pulkit]

Fair enough.

If the DRDO lagged behind without results for years and the world technology moved to 120mm and so did our adversary, what do you think we should do? Hang around to 115?

from your experience please let me know the life span of this technology. World moved to next after how many years? AGain you want to jump from 0 to 100 immediately.

Want India to fight outgunned?

It will be still better than fighting without any

Imagine fighting with a .303 repeat loading when the adversary has 7.62 semi or fully automatic.

One in hand is better than two in bushes

You be the judge, jury and prosecutor.




Abrahms maybe OK for the US strategic perception of their perceived battle grounds. Not for India.

this is not fair now you going case by case....

Well, if you can use that type of weight in the desert and in semi soft sand, forget about soft sand, then please use it.
And don't forget the bridge classification.

I will like to know the bridge capacity along with factor of safety.... + I believe pressure exerted is still lower than its counter part

GSQR are not flight of fancy gone wild. it is also vetted by the DRDO before finalised.

[/quote] In your day to day example scenario .. Who will be heard Customer or seller

Sir, there are many, including myself, who would contend with the claim that GSQR does not change drastically.

Changing the bore from 115mm to 120mm, is not a tweak, certainly not for a rifled barrel.

Sir, the Abrams' weight is 69+ tons, but folks within the army complained when Arjun's weight crept closer to the 58-59 ton mark. I would be interested in seeing a copy of the GSQR No. 326, if available in the public domain.

We cannot change the laws of physics Sir. Is there any way to vet the people preparing the draft GSQR?

It is so easy to say a meeting was organised and DRDO called to the meeting and the GSQR was changed.

Yes that is exactly what might have happened

DRDO were called for what? To sit as dummies or give their input if it was feasible or not. Obviously, if they say that it can't be done, then would it not be stupid of anyone to put out a GSQR that cannot be translated?

Every one knows DRDO was fed u with changing requirements it was also said in public many times even our defense minister has said the same

It is like stating that someone tells someone to jump into a well, and that someone knows he will die, jumps in!

No it is not it is like asking someone to jump in the well or getting blown from a cannon

As I said earlier, the DRDO takes everything as an infusion of more cash for other issues expended in the name of developed.

DRDO has nt given its best and sat on many products lead to delay in many others but they are not the only one guilty

Visit VRDE and see the best of the world's cars. They are there for research and the official ride them daily to and forth for experiencing for 'research'.

If one can visualise what would be the requirement 40 years hence, then he must be an astrologer.

It is just not possible.

Yes it is this is how one plan for future gen.... Just of say and sadly American have this ability and even chinese are demonstrating it but our forces lack in this department. and if DRDO has any idea it becomes unrealistic from defense oint of view hence no funds

While one can have scientific models to predict to some extent what the natural resources deposit will be still there, or how the climate may change or global warming, changes in technology over such a long period of time and the global political and strategic cannot just be predicted.

How many knew that USSR will collapse within 'x' years?

Prediction for you calculation and estimation for me....

Does he or any minister or his worthy bureaucrat any military experience or strategic vision?

What do you want no civil or army ....

I think in one of the interview when Defense minister said so the ex army chief was sitting next to him ..
why did he not counter this statement?

if they had where is the Strategic Vision document? It is an open secret the strategy, if indeed it is a strategy, is only reactive and momentary.


.

The GSQR does not change drastically. There are mere tweaks requested and the DRDO to ensure that they be the cash cow that they are. promise everything and more......and then they fail......but convince to keep the project going and the cash cow going, alive and kicking.

Once everything is finalised there is no scope for ven tweaks

There is a Draft GSQR and it is vetted by all concerned and then finalised. So, no one is out of the loop who matter. The military has no role once DRDO takes up, except when the prototype are put up for User Trails.

That is not true . Army interefered in Arjun and IAF in Tejas many times....

What is so different of real life that affect you and the real life that affects the soldier, sailor and airmen? The only difference, is that your life is not on line because of the changes in technology, the soldier, sailor and airmens' life is on the line and hence more important and even scary.

What is aiming higher when you cannot achieve it? Can't build castles in the air, can we?

Aiming high is planning what is needed in next thirty years.... If you cannot do that take what you get not demand.....

 

[grampiguy]

Fair enough.

If the DRDO lagged behind without results for years and the world technology moved to 120mm and so did our adversary, what do you think we should do? Hang around to 115?

Want India to fight outgunned?

Imagine fighting with a .303 repeat loading when the adversary has 7.62 semi or fully automatic.

You be the judge, jury and prosecutor.




Abrahms maybe OK for the US strategic perception of their perceived battle grounds. Not for India.

Well, if you can use that type of weight in the desert and in semi soft sand, forget about soft sand, then please use it.
And don't forget the bridge classification.

GSQR are not flight of fancy gone wild. it is also vetted by the DRDO before finalised.

How come the same 69+ ton Abram tanks , Challenger Tanks, Leopard Tanks were working well in Middle Eastern deserts, Afghanistan highlands and almost every part of the world but Arjun, a less heavy tank is not good for Indian requirements? Actually, the future for Arjun seems quite intriguing now. There are possibilities that Pakistan may get Turkish Altay tanks. I wonder how will Indian DGMF plan for that eventuality??

Army's GSQR writing still seems quite heavily influenced by General G G Bewoor's philosophy of putting in such a way that no local system can ever match it !!

 

[Ray]

How come the same 69+ ton Abram tanks , Challenger Tanks, Leopard Tanks were working well in Middle Eastern deserts, Afghanistan highlands and almost every part of the world but Arjun, a less heavy tank is not good for Indian requirements? Actually, the future for Arjun seems quite intriguing now. There are possibilities that Pakistan may get Turkish Altay tanks. I wonder how will Indian DGMF plan for that eventuality??

Army's GSQR writing still seems quite heavily influenced by General G G Bewoor's philosophy of putting in such a way that no local system can ever match it !!

I am afraid you do not seem to realise what comprises the desert terrain and types of desert sands.

This might help you to understand the types of sand and depends on how well they are packed or loose, their load bearing capacity.
Sand Types - Sandatlas'

This is a part of the Thar desert:

and so is this

Obviously, the first two will have less load bearing capacity than the lower two.

This is the Negyev Desert

It is obvious that the Negyev Desert has a high load bearing capacity than the Thar.

To be frank, much of the Mechanised Forces philosophy is attributed to Gen Sunderjee.

In Afghanistan, whatever little armour they have used is confined to the road and adjoining open patches.

Today's Crises
America's Marine
February 2015


Tanks Support Infantry Marines in Afghanistan
In southern Afghanistan, the terrain Bravo Co. operates in varies from fine-powered sand commonly referred to as "moon dust" by the Marines, to coarse and rocky. Water irrigation channels, known as wadis, are scattered throughout the landscape and pose a hazard to the tanks.

"Being over here is like being on a different planet," Quigley said. The terrain they've experienced so far in Afghanistan is nothing like where they trained, he added.

Even with the ever-changing landscape, Felder said the ride is surprisingly smooth.

Don't go for the hyperbole because this from the same article speak another story

With a machine as heavy as a tank crossing rough terrain upwards of 40 mph, bolts and hoses can get jostled loose. Beneath its armored exoskeleton, a tank is a web of wires, hydraulic lines and gear works.

"Finding a leak is like finding a needle in a haystack," Walsh said.

On missions, mechanics are never far from the tanks they're assigned to. They either drive M-88A2 "Hercules" recovery vehicles – tow trucks for tanks – or 7-ton trucks that carry tools and spare parts.

http://marines.dodlive.mil/2012/08/20/tanks-support-infantry-marines-in-afghanistan/

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:US_soldiers_stuck_in_sand_in_southern_Afghanistan.jpg

And this is NOT a tank.

 

[Pulkit]

@Ray Sir Totally agree with you on the terrain ....

Can you please share the insight about what is the pressure exerted by Arjun,T90 and T72?
and also if you may please ,Weight of all these three based on the equipment they carry?Like weight without A/C etc etc..

How come the same 69+ ton Abram tanks , Challenger Tanks, Leopard Tanks were working well in Middle Eastern deserts, Afghanistan highlands and almost every part of the world but Arjun, a less heavy tank is not good for Indian requirements? Actually, the future for Arjun seems quite intriguing now. There are possibilities that Pakistan may get Turkish Altay tanks. I wonder how will Indian DGMF plan for that eventuality??

Army's GSQR writing still seems quite heavily influenced by General G G Bewoor's philosophy of putting in such a way that no local system can ever match it !!

I am afraid you do not seem to realise what comprises the desert terrain and types of desert sands.

This might help you to understand the types of sand and depends on how well they are packed or loose, their load bearing capacity.
Sand Types - Sandatlas'

This is a part of the Thar desert:

and so is this

Obviously, the first two will have less load bearing capacity than the lower two.

This is the Negyev Desert

It is obvious that the Negyev Desert has a high load bearing capacity than the Thar.

To be frank, much of the Mechanised Forces philosophy is attributed to Gen Sunderjee.

 

[Ray]

@Pulkit,

I cannot off hand give you the technical details.

I like your stating it is better to have a .303 even if do not have a 7.62.

So, I would only say as the Americans say - Remember the Alamo, Indians 'Remember 1962' and why we were outgunned. The man machine mix was wrong. Lot of courage, but too long to load the weapon against better rifles of the Chinese.

 

[Pulkit]

@Pulkit,

I cannot off hand give you the technical details.

I like your stating it is better to have a .303 even if do not have a 7.62.

So, I would only say as the Americans say - Remember the Alamo, Indians 'Remember 1962' and why we were outgunned. The man machine mix was wrong. Lot of courage, but too long to load the weapon against better rifles of the Chinese.

I also said one in hand is better than two in bushes.
do not forget battle of longewala.
Even with limited resources they were able to defend.
If I have a lower weapon against a higher weapon I will be happier than the one without any weapon.

Technical details:Even i do not have reliable quotes but by what I know there is hardly any difference when it comes to pressure exerted and its a prooven fact that Arjun has performed better than T90.

Is the issue regarding AC in T90 being resolved and who resolved it.
Is Arjun or Is it not better than T90 ?

 

[power_monger]

I am afraid you do not seem to realise what comprises the desert terrain and types of desert sands.


And this is NOT a tank.

Weight exerted per unit area for Arjun is way lower than T-90. If Arjun cannot withstand it niether can t-90.This is one of the reason why DRDO insisted for comparitive trials.Everyone knows what happened after it.

 

[Pulkit]

Weight exerted per unit area for Arjun is way lower than T-90. If Arjun cannot withstand it niether can t-90.This is one of the reason why DRDO insisted for comparitive trials.Everyone knows what happened after it.

I know that is true but I am looking for a reliable source if you have one plz do share....

 

[power_monger]

I know that is true but I am looking for a reliable source if you have one plz do share....

The DRDO rebuts this logic, as do the tank units that actually operate the Arjun. "The Arjun's heavier weight is distributed over a larger area because of its larger tracks. Its nominal ground-pressure is lower than the Russian tanks. So, the Arjun can actually move more easily in Punjab," says S Sundaresh, the DRDO's Chief Controller of R&D for armoured vehicles.

Army scuttles Arjun trials to push through Russian T-90 purchase | Business Standard News

Dissimilar Combat: Arjun MBT Vs T-90S specs | Frontier India

There are lot more if you look for the details of nominal ground pressure.