Did Pakistan Decide to Buy China’s Newest Attack Helicopter?

Discussion in 'Pakistan' started by Zarvan, Mar 24, 2016.

  1. Zarvan

    Zarvan Regular Member

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    [​IMG]

    Pakistan’s Army has for the first time publicly revealed the Changhe Aircraft Industries Corporation (CAIC) Z-10 Thunderboltattack helicopter during this year’s Pakistan Day parade, Defense News reports.

    The Z-10 is the first modern attack helicopter designed and produced domestically by the People’s Republic of China and been in service with the People’s Liberation Army since 2012.

    The helicopter gunship has been undergoing performance evaluations (on and off the battlefield) since 2015 when Pakistan purportedly received three Z-10s (along with one Z-19 Black Hurricane armed scout helicopter).

    Up to now, the Pakistan Army has not made an official announcement on whether it intends to induct the helicopter, although an unknown number of Z-10s are allegedly already in service with the 35th “Mustangs” Squadron of the Army Aviation Corps.

    Perhaps, one of the reasons why the military has not declared publicly that it will opt for the Chinese gunship is that it is not satisfied with the performance of the aircraft. According to some analysts, the helicopter is plagued by the same issue that has been afflicting other Chinese aircraft: an under-performing engine.

    The helicopter is currently operating with two under-powered WZ-9 turboshaft engines that prevent Z-10 from carrying its maximum payload potential including up to 16 AR-1/HJ-10 anti-tank missiles.

    China, however, is already working on a new more powerful engine, the WZ-16, currently under development by the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), which would solve the under-performance problem.

    Despite engine issues, however, the Pakistan Army has allegedly been satisfied with the performance of the helicopter during counterinsurgency operations, where it has outclassed other helicopters currently in service with the military.

    Islamabad aims to replace its aging fleet of AH-1F Cobra helicopter gunships over the next years. The Pakistan Army has expressed interest in purchasing up to 20 MI-35 Hind gunships from Russia and is waiting for the delivery of 15 AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters (See: “Is the US About to Sell 1,000 Missiles to Pakistan?”).

    Despite Pakistan’s long helicopter shopping list, the Z-10 could still have a future in army aviation due its low cost in comparison to Western model, which, given Islamabad’s desire to acquire a large armored helicopter fleet, could help sway opinion in favor of the Chinese armored gunship. (China would probably be willing to help set up maintenance, repair, and overhaul facilities in Pakistan as part of an arms deal, which would further drive down operational costs of the helicopter gunship.)

    The Z-10 attack helicopter has primarily been developed for anti-tank warfare and, given that it is equipped with HJ-10 anti-tank missiles, would be a powerful deterrent to the armored columns of the Indian military in the event of war–a convincing reason for traditionally-minded Pakistan Army officers to support the purchase.

    http://thediplomat.com/2016/03/did-pakistan-decide-to-buy-chinas-newest-attack-helicopter/

    [​IMG]

    China is developing new engine with help of Europe known as WZ16. It would come soon and is more powerful than current engine so we may wait for those new engines.
     
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  3. OverLoad

    OverLoad Snake Eater

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    No as per reports the current version is not selected but the improved version is finalized for induction but subject to trials once China will deliver two or three for trials which is likely be given in 2017/18.
     
  4. Zarvan

    Zarvan Regular Member

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    Yes we are waiting for new engine if it arrives soon than we would go for WZ-10
     
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  5. OverLoad

    OverLoad Snake Eater

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    Sir we are not waiting for new engines but the Chinese and i believe they already have the better engine and choppers are in production, once trials with new engines done in China they will send 2 or 3 to test them in real war zones in Pakistan.
     
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  6. Zarvan

    Zarvan Regular Member

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    We already tested them in war zones only issue we have is the engine which is not that powerful as compared to Viper which we are going to get so we would wait for new engine.
     
  7. OverLoad

    OverLoad Snake Eater

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    Dear Zarvan Bhai when choppers will equipped with new engines it is quite obvious China And Pakistan test them again.
     
  8. abingdonboy

    abingdonboy Senior Member Senior Member

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    What a mess, no money but scrambling around taking whatever it can get- a few upgraded Cobras from the US, a few Mi-35s from the Russians and a few WZ-10 from the Chinese. I'm sure some generals are making some decent money from all this. Complete opaquness, a complete lack of accountability but the Pak fanboys are jumping up and down because.........?

    @Gessler
     
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  9. OverLoad

    OverLoad Snake Eater

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    Hi
    If Pak boys are jumping leave them why you acted like chicken, MI-35 totally for diffrent role and Z-10 not inducted yet may be after some improvement in engine PAA induct them...We are not getting used or upgraded but new Vipers from USA in a first lot 18 and fallow up 18 more...
     
  10. Navnit Kundu

    Navnit Kundu Pika Hu Akbarrr!! Senior Member

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    ............they avoided catching polio.
     
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  11. Navnit Kundu

    Navnit Kundu Pika Hu Akbarrr!! Senior Member

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    Last edited: Mar 24, 2016
  12. Illusive

    Illusive Senior Member Senior Member

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    Turkish T129 is closest thing to European quality with European engine, i think @abingdonboy is right, this is some general making money for his retirement with Chinese getting a easy market. The Chinese lobby is only get stronger.
     
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  13. OverLoad

    OverLoad Snake Eater

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    State Dept. OKs $952M Pakistan Helo Deal

    WASHINGTON — The US State Department has cleared a $952 million sale to Pakistan that includes 15 AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters and 1,000 Hellfire II missiles, according to a Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) announcement.

    The sale is intended to support Pakistan's counterterrorism and counterinsurgency operations with a precision-strike, enhanced-survivability aircraft that can operate at high-altitudes, according to DSCA's Monday announcement. Pakistan would use the gear in operations in the North Waziristan Agency, the Federally Administered Tribal Areas and other remote and mountainous areas in all-weather, day-and-night environments.

    "This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a country vital to U.S. foreign policy and national security goals in South Asia," the announcement says.

    The local Bell representatives in Pakistan, Access Zone, did not respond to queries regarding when they expected delivery should the deal be approved, or if they hoped more would be acquired to fully replace the approximately 48 Cobras currently in service.

    Analysts in Pakistan expressed surprise at the announcement. Though the Viper had long been suggested as a replacement for the current fleet of AH-1F/S helicopter gunships, US congressional opposition seemed to make acquisition of further US equipment unlikely.

    Analyst, author and former Australian defense attache to Islamabad, Brian Cloughley, says he was "absolutely certain that the US would not supply any more attack helicopters."

    But he welcomes the announcement.

    "This is very good news for Pakistan on two counts: First, the Army is getting one of the most sophisticated attack helicopters in the world; second, it shows that the US has not abandoned Pakistan, as so many people thought it had," he said.

    "It does require the assent of Congress," said Cloughley, "but if Congress were to block it this would send a negative message concerning its determination to keep up the war on terror."

    This is not to say that unrestricted arms sales will resume as "it seems that the main criterion is that US-supplied materiel must be COIN [counterinsurgency] specific. There would be difficulty in providing systems that are obviously intended for general warfare, i.e. against India," Cloughley says.

    Claude Rakisits, nonresident senior fellow at the Atlantic Council's South Asia Center, said that "in its deliberations about whether to approve such a sale to Pakistan, the fact that the provision of this new capability will not alter the military balance between the two nuclear-armed states – Pakistan and India – will make it easier for the lawmakers to agree to this sale."

    The announcement comes at a time when multiple types of helicopters are being pursued, both to replace the Cobras, and potentially support paramilitary and special forces operations.

    Analyst Haris Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said that even though it is a small number, the Vipers could replace at least some of the Cobras and it comes at a time when China has supplied three WZ-10 gunships, and Russia may be close to supplying approximately 20 Mi-35 Hinds

    Agence France-Press reported Friday that Pakistan has in recent weeks focused its fight against the Taliban on the Tirah Valley, a Federally Administered Tribal Area, with a series of air strikes and ground assaults. Though the area, with steep valleys and dense woods, is inaccessible, Pakistan's military has claimed it has taken control of key terrain there.
    Pakistan had sought new helicopter gunships for the best part of a decade to replace the Cobras, which have been fast wearing out due to the pace of operations against the Pakistani Taliban and its allies in and around the tribal areas bordering Afghanistan. In November, it appeared Pakistan was closing a deal for Mi-35 Hind heavy attack helicopters, based on a Pakistani radio interview with Russia's ambassador.

    The US sale includes 32 T-700 GE 401C engines; 36 H-1 technical refresh mission computers; 17 AN/AAQ-30 target sight systems; 30 629F-23 ultra high frequency/very high frequency communication systems; 19 H-764 embedded global positioning system/inertial navigation systems; 32 helmet mounted display/optimized top owl; 17 APX-117A identification friend or foe; 17 AN/AAR-47 missile warning systems; 17 AN/ALE-47 countermeasure dispenser sets; 18 AN/APR-39C(V)2 radar warning receivers; 15 joint mission planning systems; and 17 M197 20mm gun systems.

    Bell Helicopter, Textron, General Electric, Boeing and Lockheed Martin will be the principal contractors.

    http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...fire-taliban-tribal-area-waziristan/25409157/
     
  14. OverLoad

    OverLoad Snake Eater

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  15. OverLoad

    OverLoad Snake Eater

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    No that was not the case our Army Generals have very little chance to make money even 4 retire Generals reinstated and punished after found some land related issues.
     
  16. OverLoad

    OverLoad Snake Eater

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    Turkish Choppers lacks in engine power and using many European parts thus will prove quite prone to sanctions if we select.
     
  17. abingdonboy

    abingdonboy Senior Member Senior Member

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    I'm making some perfectly valid observations, refute what I am saying or keep quiet.
     
  18. Illusive

    Illusive Senior Member Senior Member

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    Once the strict teacher leaves, the student will start their merry making once again.
     
  19. abingdonboy

    abingdonboy Senior Member Senior Member

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    And the Cobras aren't prone to sanctions? :rofl::rofl:


    Don't make out that this is all part of some grand strategy by the PA to diversify, they are taking whatever they can get wherever they can get it from. Beggers can't be choosers.
     
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  20. Illusive

    Illusive Senior Member Senior Member

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    Isn't it contradictory since your army is going for more vipers, which will be the worst sanction prone machine, in Turkeys case, they still can get you through black markets since they stood through you many times in the past.
     
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  21. abingdonboy

    abingdonboy Senior Member Senior Member

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    Oh please, this is the most absurd thing I have heard. Everyone knows the Pak Generals are amongst the most corrupt in Pakistan, their retirement plans include vast amounts of land. How is Musharraf able to fly aroud in private jets, have healthcare in the US and homes in London and Dubai?

    Even corps commanders drive around in 7 series and S-classes.

    With the kind of opaquness the PA operate with and the complete lack of any civil oversight, these things are inevitable.

    Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely- don't try and make out these Pak generals are somehow superhuman deities immune to basic human greed.
     
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