DF 21D vs Brahmos 2 Hypersonic ASCM - A Layman's Analysis

Discussion in 'China' started by Drsomnath999, Nov 23, 2011.

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which antiship missile is going to be a real threat in future wars ?

  1. DF 21d Asbm for sure

    8 vote(s)
    16.0%
  2. Brahmos 2 Hypersonic Ascm obviously

    28 vote(s)
    56.0%
  3. Piss off , US would counter every weapon

    14 vote(s)
    28.0%
  1. Drsomnath999

    Drsomnath999 lord of 32 teeth Elite Member

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    1.INTRODUCTION
    [​IMG]
    DF 21D ASBM :
    An anti-ship ballistic missile (ASBM) is a military quasiballistic missile system currently in developement, of medium or intermediate range, designed to hit a warship at sea. Because of speeds typically reaching Mach 10 there are currently no ship-board defense mechanisms that could counter an ASBM in the terminal phase.

    ASBM are equipped with a conventional warhead large enough, together with the kinetic energy, that a single hit has the potential to cripple or outright destroy a supercarrier, but unlike nuclear weapons have to hit the target precisely to be effective. Thus, and unlike a typical ballistic missile, which follows a ballistic flightpath after the relatively brief initial powered phase of flight, an ASBM would require a precise and high-performance terminal guidance system.

    China has developed and reached initial operating capability of a conventionally-armed high hypersonic land-based anti-ship ballistic missile (ASBM) based on the DF-21. This would be the world's first ASBM and the world's first weapons system capable of targeting a moving aircraft carrier strike group from long-range, land-based mobile launchers.

    BRAHMOS 2 HYPERSONIC ANTI SHIP CRUISE MISSILE:
    A hypersonic cruise missile is a cruise missile that would travel at least 6-7 times the speed of sound (MACH 6-7) & is powered by scramjet engine.BrahMos II is a stealth hypersonic cruise missile that is being currently under development that can fly at Mach 7. But brahmos2 may be hydrocarbon based dualmode ramjet & scramjet powered platform or hydrogen powered
    single mode scramjet powered vehicle .
    http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/ae20/ironmandef/12.jpg




    2.RANGE:
    [​IMG]
    DF 21D ASBM :
    China has reportedly developed and tested the world's first anti-ship ballistic missile called DF-21D, with a maximum range of around 3,000 kilometres (1,900 mi), in 2005, according to the US Department of Defense.
    Anti-ship ballistic missile - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Looking beyond a regional maritime strike capability,China’s defense industry has been evaluating the feasibility of a global conventional strike capability as an incremental follow-on to the successful deploymentofan ASBM.Based on a broad survey of available literature,this paper post its that the PRC has a phased approach for development of a conventional global precision strike capability by 2025.The process can be divided into four key phases:
    •The initial phase seeks to have a rudimentary 1,500 to 2,000 km range ASBM capability available to the PLA by the end of the 11th Five Year Plan in 2010.
    •A second phase would seek to extend these capabilities out to a range of3,000km by the conclusion of the 12th Five Year Plan in 2015.China’s aerospace industry has been analyzing alternatives to extend the range of the ASBM while maintaining precision.Among the options include a more advanced solid motor and a“boost-glide”trajectory that would complicate mid-course missile defenses.
    •A third phase would focus on extending conventional precision strike capability out to 8,000km before the end of the 13th Five Year Plan in 2020.
    •A final phase would involve a global precision strike capability by the conclusion of the 14th Five Year Plan in 2025.
    Such a plan would not be setin stone.A number of events could result in cancellation or acceleration of the phases,including a change in threat perception;accelerationor cancellation of similar efforts in other countries,such as the U.S.Prompt Global Strike (PGS) program;a satisfactory conventional arms control program;a severe economic downturn or domestic political crisis and key technological breakthroughs or insurmountable obstacles.
    http://project2049.net/documents/chinese_anti_ship_ballistic_missile_asbm.pdf

    BRAHMOS 2 HYPERSONIC ANTI SHIP CRUISE MISSILE:
    It was agreed to limit the range of BRAHMOS 2 missile to 290 km in order to conform to stipulations of the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) of which Russia is a signatory. The regime forbids export of any missile with a range in excess of 300 km.
    Brahmos-2 - a knol by Vijainder K Thakur
    But it's range can be easily increased ,so it is just for papers i think ,well definitely in real time situation it would be used to it's full capability range

    So DF 21D has much more long range than Brahmos 2 ,as MTCR restricts it's range so advantage to DF 21d in terms of range


    3.GUIDANCE SYSTEM:
    [​IMG]
    DF 21D ASBM :
    To strike any target with an ASBM, China would have first to form an accurate idea of its recent location.Detecting the carrier at great distances would depend on early-warning systems,such as sky-wave, over-the-horizon (OTH) radar,or electronic signals intelligence,that would give a general idea of the target’s geographic coordinates.There is substantial evidence that China has at least one over-the- horizon back scatter(OTH-B) system up and running. It could be used to identify targets at long range,Once the carrier is identifi ed, its position needs to be pinpointed. Long-range unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) could gather such information.

    another reliable targeting system to support the ASBM, is space-based reconnaissance & targetting system.In the task of fi nding a U.S. carrier at sea, China’s satellites would vary in their usefulness according to sensor type and resolution.
    Of the sensors deployed on China’s satellites, synthetic aperture radar (SAR) is the most useful for hunting maritime targets,as it can sweep a relatively wide swath at a resolution good enough to image fairly small targets.SAR can produce imagery regardless of weather or sunlight. Instead of merely looking for a carrier group itself, SAR can capture ship wakes
    trailing over large stretches of ocean, making it particularly useful for fi nding moving targets.

    Multispectral and hyperspectral sensors can also be very effective. For instance, they could spot algae and other phosphorescent material churned up by ships. Infrared and regular visible-light images could also be useful,but they would have relatively narrow foci and could not scan vast stretches of ocean.According to open sources,only four of China’s satellites in low earth orbit, all in the military Yaogan series,are equipped with SAR.

    So for mid course flight of the missile ,guidance would be provided by millimeter-wave radar or Synthetic aperture Radar(SAR),while for terminal phase of missile ,guidance would be provided by millimeter-wave radar or (IIR) passive imaging infra red seeker. The Second Artillery has also completed at least one technical requirements assessment on a CO2 guidance coherent laserimaging radar for ballistic missile terminal guidance.

    http://project2049.net/documents/chinese_anti_ship_ballistic_missile_asbm.pdf
    http://www.chinasecurity.us/pdfs/others/Hagt&Durnin.pdf


    BRAHMOS 2 HYPERSONIC ANTI SHIP CRUISE MISSILE:
    Mid-course guidance is through Inertial Navigation System (INS) & while it's terminal phase may have active/passive homing seeker.A Global Positioning System (GPS) has also been made to complement the navigational data computed by INS. GPS is based on an array of low-earth NAVSTAR (NAVigation Satellite Targeting & Ranging) satellites. Computers onboard the missile, communicate with the satellites to accurately determine their instantaneous location.However the US monopoly over NAVSTAR satellites means signals can be "degraded for other users" by United States at their will. India would involve itself in future with the rapidly expanding Russian GLONASS GPS project or other suitable alternatives in terms of scientific collaboration or financial resource sharing.

    WHAT

    So Brahmos2 guidance system looks far more Simple & effective in such a short range as compare to DF 21D AsBM's guidance sytem which looks far more complicated & prone to misintepretation of target accusation at such long range


    4.WARHEAD
    [​IMG]
    DF 21D ASBM :
    It can carry both conventional & tactical nuclear warheads ,but use of tactical nukes may not be done due to fear of inciting nuclear war .DF 21D ASBM are equipped with a conventional warhead which is a Manoeuvrable Re-Entry Vehicle (MaRV) large enough, together with the kinetic energy, that a single hit has the potential to cripple or outright destroy a supercarrier, but unlike nuclear weapons have to hit the target precisely to be effective.The missile would also be carrying decoys & other ABM counter measures with it. It may also include Manuvering independently targeted Re entry vvehicle (MIRV)warheads in future missiles .China’s military is developing electromagnetic pulse weapons and high-powered microwave (HPM) weapons that Beijing plans to use against U.S. aircraft carriers in any future conflict over Taiwan, according to an intelligence report made public on Thursday. Richard Fisher, a China military analyst, said EMP warheads are likely to be an option for China’s new DF-21D anti-ship ballistic missile for the purpose of attacking large U.S. Navy ships without inflicting immediate massive casualties.
    DF-21 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    PLA Ballistic Missiles
    China’s Anti-Access Missile | Flashpoints
    Report: China building electromagnetic pulse weapons for use against U.S. carriers (Article)
    Report: China building electromagnetic pulse weapons for use against U.S. carriers - Washington Times

    BRAHMOS 2 HYPERSONIC ANTI SHIP CRUISE MISSILE:
    The ship-launched and Sub based missiles can carry a 200 kg warhead, whereas the aircraft-launched variant can carry a 300 kg HE conventional warhead. The high speed (mach 6-7) version of BRAHMOS 2 missile provides better target-penetration capabilities than the supersonic brahmos I cruise missile due to higher kinetic energy than it's predesscor

    Brahmos Supersonic Cruise missile
    BrahMos Supersonic Cruise Missile - Army Technology
    Brahmos Missile - a knol by Vijainder K Thakur


    So in terms of warhead DF 21D ASBM is far more powerful & devastating than Brahmos 2 .So a single DF 21D ASBM is capable of sinking a supercarrier while 2 or 3 brahmos II HYPERSONIC ANTI SHIP CRUISE MISSILEs would be required for sinking a supercarrier.

    5.SPEED
    [​IMG]
    DF 21D ASBM :
    The DF-21 can hit it's targets in terminal phase at speeds of Mach 10- 11, which is high hypersonic missile.so Thermal control becomes a dominant design consideration. Structure must either be designed to operate hot, or be protected by special silicate tiles or similar.
    DF-21 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Hypersonic speed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    BRAHMOS 2 HYPERSONIC ANTI SHIP CRUISE MISSILE:
    BRAHMOS 2 would have a maximum speed of (MACH 6-7) i.e 6-7 times the speed of sound.For this new materials to withstand high temperature and vibrations are being developed.
    India, Russia work on hypersonic stealth cruise missile - Home » Other Sections » Breaking News

    So DF 21dAsBM has much higher speed than Brahmos 2 at it's terminal stage giving it higher destructive power & more difficult
    to intercept due to high speeds than brahmos 2



    6.ACCURACY:
    [​IMG]
    DF 21D ASBM :
    The latest variant of the DF 21 SERIES MRBM is the 1,750 km range DF-21C,which technical writings indicate is modeled
    after the terminally-guided U.S.Pershing II ballistic missile and is reported to have a circular error probable (CEP) VALUE of 50 meters or better.However,given its flight characteristics,it is not easy to modify a ballistic missile to go aftermoving targets at sea.

    Nonetheless, the majority of studies indicate that the technical obstacles are well within China’s ability to resolve.
    For example, controlling the speed of the missile after reentry is diffi cult but possible.A number of authors suggest a
    “pulling up” maneuver at an altitude of between twenty-fi ve and fi fty kilometers to level off the ballistic trajectory,
    positioning the warhead to search for its target.The change in trajectory would also act as a defense-penetration aid.
    As for guiding the missile to its target, a number of studies argue that the speed and maneuverability of an aircraft carrier are probably too limited to evade an MRBM in the terminal phase.
    As in fi gure , adapted from a Chinese study, illustrates,the “kill radius” (the distance the target could deviate from initial position and still be struck) of a terminally guided ASBM missile that has reduced its speed to allow for active homing to seek its target is approximately twenty kilometers This assumes the missile has accurate prelaunch target coordinates and that the missile’s fl ight time (also, the time the carrier has to maneuver) is limited to roughly fi fteen minutes.Using guidance in both the midcourse (for instance,millimeter-wave radar) and terminal (radar or infrared) phases could increase the attack radius to forty kilometers, according to one study
    http://www.chinasecurity.us/pdfs/others/Hagt&Durnin.pdf

    BRAHMOS 2 HYPERSONIC ANTI SHIP CRUISE MISSILE:
    Brahmos I missile which has a high level of accuracy, which has been established by recent test flights as close to 1 m CEP.
    MissileThreat :: BrahMos PJ-10
    so we can also assume Brahmos 2 should also have a CEP value approximately 2-4 m (approx) OK let me be more strict 10 m (approx) ,then also it would be far more accurate than DF 21 d Missile & that too at such short range compare to DF 21 d.

    So Brahmos 2 is far more accurate than DF 21d at such short range against a moving target,while For DF 21d to have such accuracy at such long range against a moving target is very difficult but not impossible.










    7 .PROPULSION:
    [​IMG]
    DF 21D ASBM :
    The DF-21D ASBM appears to be integrating a new solid rocket motor.In August 2009,the Hohhot city government announced
    the CASIC Sixth Academy’s Honggang Factory (also known as the 359 Factory) completed a construction project for manufacturing of DF-21D solid rocket motors.Much of the Chinese technical literature on solid motors focuses on glycidylazide polymer (GAP),XLDP,CL-20,andother advanced solid propellants.With reducing the effectiveness of U.S.Space Based Infrared
    Satellite (SBIRS) systems as a key driver,GAP and other propellants may offer a faster burn rate and lower signature than
    traditional propellants,such as HTPB.
    A hybrid upper stage could support some type of post-boost vehicle.CASIC Sixth Academy began R & D on a hybrid solid-liquid
    engine for attitude control in 2004 and successfully tested a prototype (yangji;[??]) in July 2007. While the primary
    application was said to be for propulsion of small satellites,such a capability could have applications for flight vehicles
    as well.
    http://project2049.net/documents/chinese_anti_ship_ballistic_missile_asbm.pdf

    BRAHMOS 2 HYPERSONIC ANTI SHIP CRUISE MISSILE:
    Brahmos2 may be hydrocarbon (liquid kerosene) based dualmode ramjet & scramjet powered platform or hydrogen powered
    single mode scramjet powered vehicle .
    http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/ae20/ironmandef/12.jpg

    8.LAUNCH PLATFORM
    [​IMG]
    DF 21D ASBM :
    It can be launched from chinese mainland through Mobile launcher .These missiles can be transferred to any location in china
    through roads only.

    BRAHMOS 2 HYPERSONIC ANTI SHIP CRUISE MISSILE:
    It can be launched from all the platforms air ,ship & submarines,but not in land for Ascms only.

    So brahmos 2 has more flexible & variety of launching platforms ,which gives a very important edge agaisnt DF 21d as it is
    only road mobile which can be easily detected through UAvs ,awacs & C4SIR systems & can be destroyed .But submarine launched Brahmos2 is very difficult to detect as usually sub launched cruise missiles are very difficult to detect.





    9.MANUVERABILTY
    [​IMG]
    DF 21D ASBM :
    The DF 21D ASBM's warhead is a conventional warhead which is a Manoeuvrable Re-Entry Vehicle (MaRV),which is capable of shifting trajectory in flight with ziz zag manuveaurs to evade active defenses on the way to their targets. A warhead that could alter its trajectory would present a much harder target for a missile defense system to hit than a warhead that followed a predictable path.

    MECHANISM Of CHINESE MaRV in DF 21d
    But each mechanism for changing the warhead’s trajectory will require its own target tracking system. Ideally, you want to make changes in trajectory as early as possible since the longer you have to accelerate to the new trajectory, the lower the magnitude of the required trajectory (and, among other things, the more control you have over the final result).
    If the DF-21D warhead uses infrared sensors—putting aside the question of whether or not China has the required technology for a moment—then it will have to use them during the coast phase of its trajectory. Otherwise, the heat of reentry will blind the sensor if it tries to use them after it reenters the atmosphere, say something like 50 km altitude to pick a round number.

    At these altitudes, the warhead cannot use aerodynamic surfaces to change its direction. So it will need thrusters—little rocket engines—to change its direction. Of course, China does has plenty of experience with fine tuning trajectories with small thrusters from its satellite insertion operations. The most likely method China might use for such a platform is a “bus” that holds the warhead while little thrusters change its position.
    Geoffrey Forden • DF-21 Delta: Some Early Thoughts

    BRAHMOS 2 HYPERSONIC ANTI SHIP CRUISE MISSILE:
    Definitely all cruise missiles in the world have one distinct advantage to Ballistic missiles that is manuverabilty ,ie they can change their course easily .Brahmos I ASCM has demonstrated it's supersonic mauverabilty in recent tests,making it
    one of the few manuverable Supersonic cruise missile in the world.
    'Maneuverable' Missile Test A Success, India Says - Defense News
    Varieties of flight trajectories of brahmos I including sea-skimming or terminal pop-up followed by a deadly supersonic dive, complicate the task of the target ship's defences.Well since late 2004, the Brahmos I missile has undergone several tests from variety of platforms including a land based test from the Pokhran range in the desert, in which the 'S' maneuver at Mach 2.8 was demonstrated for the Indian Army and a launch in which the land attack capability from sea was demonstrated.

    So can Brahmos 2 Hypersonic cruise missile replicate that ????? ,that well we can only assume & nothing else ,but one thing i want to ask is scramjet vehicle going to be manuverable ?
    The answer is YES it can be manuverable & it is confirmed by NASA through their tests in X 43A prototype .
    So if Brahmos 2 going to be powered by scramjet + ramjet engine Or itself be a scramjet vehicle then it is going to be manuverable,but can it replicate brahmos I manuveurabilty ? it can only be confirm by tests only .


    So overall brahmos 2 hypersonic cruise missile is more manuverable to a ballistic missile DF 21d as it is a cruise missile .But DF 21d Marv's warhead is also capable of amazing manuverabilty.








    10.STEALTH
    [​IMG]
    DF 21D ASBM :
    As usual Ballistic missile dont rely on stealth ,but TEL launchers are prone to be detected by Awacs ,Enemy's C4SIR systems.
    so Chinese may have to camouflage it's launchers or shift it's location frequently in order to avoid being detected.
    well Df 21 D missiles once launched can be detected by enemies C4SIR ,But the stage that is most important is it's terminal stage ,as usual a reentry vehicle would be subjected to very high temperature when it reenters the atmosphere at such High hypersonic speeds MACH 10-11 which could make it prone to be detectable by forward looking infra red FLIR sensors of Enemy warships & FLIR is also used in working of enemy's Ballistic missile interceptors.
    SM-3 Interceptor
    Also they have to reduce the RCS of DF 21D MaRV so that they reflect less amount of electromagnetic energy back to the radar of target ship.A relatively sharp nose cone would reduce the radar cross section substantially, compared with the large, blunt-nosed reentry vehicles of the prior era (which actually needed a blunt nose to slow their descent through the atmosphere to minimize heating). Moreover, a sharp cone-shaped missile would maintain a high velocity all the way to the ground, making it more difficult to intercept.
    Moreover DF21d would be carrying it with Decoys & Abm countermeasures with it to confuse it's target's air defences.



    BRAHMOS 2 HYPERSONIC ANTI SHIP CRUISE MISSILE:
    brahmos II is going to be a stealthy cruise missile as said by Brahmos chief Pillai & is going to be smaller than brahmos I so defintely smaller RCS than it's predecessor .Also a submarine launched cruise missile from an AIP enabled classical SSK or
    nuclear sub is the stealthiest way of firing any Anti ship cruise missile ,so it would further indirectly enhance the stealth profile of Brahmos II , flying low as much as possible towards it's target & by the time the target ship detects
    it,the target ship would have very less reaction time to destroy it.

    But the fact is hypersonic cruise missile are subject to enormous heat flying low in dense atmosphere produces a huge amount of heat by friction and it would be easily visible by all IR sensors in target warships.So Scramjet or hybrid ramjet propulsion would be required for an air-breathing weapon, with advanced materials technology, possibly including active cooling, needed to deal with the temperatures generated at such speeds. NPO Mashinostroenia already has a track record in working on passive and active low observable technology in the radio frequency spectrum for high altitude cruise weapons.
    Well many high temperature resistant materials are indeed under development including Endothermic fuel .Well brahmos 2 would
    incoporate heavy paint coating like on BrahMosI which may be a radar and/or IR-absorbent coating.But would it work at such
    high temperature needs to be seen .
    Australia By The Indian Ocean: Hypersonic "BrahMos-2" - Name Misleading
    http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/ae20/ironmandef/12.jpg

    So brahmos2 hypersonic cruise missile is definitely better to DF 21d in terms of stealth as it can fly low like a cruise missile to evade radar & early warning radars


    CONCLUSION
    [​IMG]
    Well both the weapons are in developmental stage but both the weapons are surely weapons of future & key weapon for them to maintain their edge over their adversary.While DF 21d ASBM maintains a clear edge over Brahmos 2 in range ,warhead & speed
    where Brahmos 2 maintains a clear edge over DF 21d in accuracy ,flexibity in launch platforms,manuverabilty & stealth.
    It would take only 1 hit from DF 21d to sink a supercarrier ,while it may require atleast 2-3 brahmos 2 to do that.
    So which one is better that's upto you to decide.



    FROM THE AUTHOR
    Well i personally want to request that i tried my level best to give as accurate data & information as possible but by chance
    if i made some mistakes plz free to correct me ,i would really appreciate that .
    I hope u guys would appreciate my hard work. .THANK YOU

    REGARDS
     
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  3. Galaxy

    Galaxy Elite Member Elite Member

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    Another great thread from none other than Dr. Somnath. Good job bro. :thumb:
     
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  4. Galaxy

    Galaxy Elite Member Elite Member

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    DF-21 is BM whereas Brahmos-2 is cruise Missile. One can't compare BM with CM. Both have different uses and features.

    CM is light, small, more accurate, less payload but could be stealth. It is used to destroy for specific strategic asset whereas BM is heavy, more payload, less stealth and used mainly for destroying a big chunk of area.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2011
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  5. Drsomnath999

    Drsomnath999 lord of 32 teeth Elite Member

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    YES u r right but their target & role are same in case of DF-21 BM & Brahmos-2 CM s understood & both are highly potent weapon system
    But both use same concept of hitting the target ie hypersonic speed
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2011
  6. Drsomnath999

    Drsomnath999 lord of 32 teeth Elite Member

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    POSSIBLE COUNTER WEAPON AGAINST THEM

    DF 21D ASBM :
    (1)AEGIS SM3 interceptor
    (2)Air borne laser missile defence to shoot it down in boost phase
    3.Ship based LAser missile defence system.
    4.To destroy it's launcher through precision attack like emp armed cruise missile,Precision giuded bombs & mk105 sensor fuze cluster weapons or kamakaze drones .



    BRAHMOS 2 HYPERSONIC ANTI SHIP CRUISE MISSILE:
    1.destroy it's launch platforms which is another headache as it has many launch platfrms & that too they all are going to be stealthy.
    2.Firestorm WEapon for Close in weapon defences of warship
    3.Sea ram or latest point missile defence system with high manuverabilty & high speed mach 9-10
    any defence system which can detect IR signaturs / EM signatures of brahmos 2 as early & precisly as possible would have increased chances of interception of that missile
    4.ship based Laser missile defence system
     
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  7. Galaxy

    Galaxy Elite Member Elite Member

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    Brahmos-2 can destroy any ship. Due to variable terrain hugging, low height, stealth and very accurate But i am not sure of DF-21. Once it reaches certain height, Radars will able to detect and ship will move away and Missile will sink in ocean. Even ABM can destroy such Missile.

    Example: Shaurya with Mach speed 7 and range 700 KM can't destroy any Ship compare with Brahmos-1 with Mach Speed 2 within 200 Km range.

    These days, Chinese call every missile as Anti-ship missile. As per my technical knowledge, Success ratio of DF-21 would not be more than 40% and Brahmos could be 90%+. Also MKI and may be PAK-FA can carry Brahmos. So, It can destroy any Ship in IOR.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2011
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  8. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Regarding guidance:

    DF-21D use UAVs or satalites to detect and track surface warships, To guide it towards its target as it carry no seeker in it..
    The only test was against a static target in gobi desert, Its not a thread as been hyped by Media..

    Drawbacks:

    1. Satalites can be destroyed via SM3 BMD on US surface warships..
    2. UAV even the stealth can be detected near 100km range, And can be shot down via Aircrafts or Other surface warships using Long range SAMs..


    Bharmos 2 have seeker for guidance, Though it need Ship radar guidance untill its own seeker activated at 75-100km away..

    Drawbacks:

    1. Bhramos can be detected at mid range, After only 100km its unstoppable..
    2. Bhramos seeker can be jammed though their are no proof available..
     
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  9. Galaxy

    Galaxy Elite Member Elite Member

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    But I must say Somnath you work really very hard for every thread. :)
     
  10. nrj

    nrj Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Hypersonic Brahmos-2 not tested. It won't be fair to judge its performance or specifications just yet.
     
  11. SHASH2K2

    SHASH2K2 New Member

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    Though I wont agree to all points in your posts but I admire the efforts you put in to start a thread. Very few people have so much of patience and energy.
     
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  12. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Instead of comparing DF-21 a ballistic missile with Brahmos a cruise missile, a better comparison would have been to compare it to Shouriya. Brahmos has a much bigger advantage over DF-21 in one regard that it is highly mobile, firing DF-21 on the open seas would not be as easy as firing Brahmos,and the CEP of DF-21 is terrible compared to brahmos. The reply to DF-21 would also be replies of ballistic missiles most likely Nuclear like Peacekeepers and tridents; that would destroy many cities for miles around, if Chinese are willing to accept that kind of collateral damage then the OHIO subs in the Pacific carrying 24- 48 nuclear warheads each are ready to give it to them.


    14 Ohio Class Subs in commission as strategic missile submarines
    24 Trident I or II Missiles per submarine.
    8 to 12 MIRVs per Trident I or II.

    14 Subs x 24 Tridents x 8 MIRVs = 2688 Nuclear Warheads
    14 Subs x 24 Tridents x 12 MIRVs = 4032 Nuclear Warheads.

    Ohio Class Sub can hold a max of 192 to 288 warheads.

    Ohio subs also carry upto 154 Tomahawk cruise missiles.
     
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  13. Drsomnath999

    Drsomnath999 lord of 32 teeth Elite Member

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    well buddy the fact is If ASBM really has to be successful it must have a seeker or else it is impossible to target a moving target especially an carrier ,They would develop most probably IIR seeker ,well about media hype they do it for every chinese weapon including J20 ,nuke subs, Anti satellite BM ,but the chinese do it,whether it is going to be effective time would say,meanwhile ,it can be feared as a dangerous weapon ,but needs more testing to confirm it.

    i have said the posible counter weapons & stealth disadvantage of DF 21d in the thread including it's high IR signature of it's RE entry vehicle which is also important for it' interception



    yes brahmos 2 has 2 guidance sytem for mid course relies on INS (GPS/GLossnass) & for terminal guidance active/passive homing seeker. but the seeker for brahmos2 may be different from brahmos 1 i assume .

    well brahmos 2 may be stealthy i assume becoze if it is going to be smaller then leeser RCS than brahmos 1 also as i had stated above it may be built with 2 version
    1.hydrocarbon based dualmode ramjet & scramjet powered platform
    or
    2. hydrogen powered
    single mode scramjet powered vehicle .
    so if latter one then it would surely have lesser RCS but may have higher IR signatures as hypersonic weapons would have enormous heat flying low in dense atmosphere produces a huge amount of heat by friction so it may be detected by IR sensor of target ship

    well jamming issue was very backdated problem it has been solved now ,,also new softwares & guidance systems are being developed for BRahmos 2
     
  14. Drsomnath999

    Drsomnath999 lord of 32 teeth Elite Member

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    correct so do DF21d but fairly we can assume somethings to be correct that i posted in this thread ok.I also thought that before making this thread ,it may be unfair to make such a thread but yes it can be correct in future so may be a pipe dream thread
     
  15. nrj

    nrj Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    DF21D is overkill for CBG. Reason to still target carrier with BM could be lack of accuracy. While Brahmos-2 or Shourya are more about precision.

    At most I can understand a dedicated BM to take out naval base over island. But targeting just carrier does not make sense imo.

    Future US carriers are going to have distributed AWACS with advanced SABR AESA all over creating grid of radar coverage. And with those mighty sats hunting any activity from sky up above high will make it pretty much difficult for launcher to withhold its soil against deadly retaliation.

    --

    We can carry out discussion presuming Brahmos-2's characteristics, but they are still untested.
     
  16. Drsomnath999

    Drsomnath999 lord of 32 teeth Elite Member

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    yes but the problem i wont be able to give so much time to make this kind of thread after 4-5ys when all this weapons become operational so better do it now as u guys would appreciate it that how futuristic vision i have (LOL)
     
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  17. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    I also doubt very much that Chinese can have DF-21 come down low enough to hit a Carrier. Ballistic missiles have never been low flying and if they try to be you lose all control over them. Also Prithvis/danush can also possibly be used against carriers many will not agree but read up on all the different things India has one with Prithvis over the decades and to me this is a viable possibility??
     
  18. Drsomnath999

    Drsomnath999 lord of 32 teeth Elite Member

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    thanks
    & i wont blame u for that ,as brahmos 2 is untested but some points i made about DF 21d & brahmos 2 are worth debating & realistic ,
    ok i agree they
    are not tested but surely some points which i mentioned about Brahmos 2 is going to happen , i bet u when brahmos 2 becomes operational just compare this thread ,u would realise it .Not bluffing bro .
     
  19. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Drsomnath this is a very good thread . As far as I know DF-21 is land based do you know if they have tried to make a SLBM out of it??
     
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  20. Drsomnath999

    Drsomnath999 lord of 32 teeth Elite Member

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    well everyone plz dont misunderstand me ,the chinese Ballistic missile technology is very advanced if they can shoot down a satellite why cant they shoot down an aircraft carrier as only thing is required some accurate guidance which may be given by IIR seeker or Millimter wave radar .
    Yes it can be shot down but if it attains MIRV or emp warheead it can really devastate an aircraft carrier group .
    Well it's an indian defence forum so thats why we are underestimating it u would surprise if u post it any chinese or paki forum they would say DF 21d is superior to brahmos & would give 100 reasons to justify it
    [​IMG]
     
  21. Drsomnath999

    Drsomnath999 lord of 32 teeth Elite Member

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    only 1 thing i can say u right now they are seriously working on some advanced guidance system for DF21d ,
     

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