Democracy and Indian Muslims

Discussion in 'Politics & Society' started by Yusuf, Mar 16, 2013.

  1. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2009
    Messages:
    24,274
    Likes Received:
    11,283
    Location:
    BANGalore
    Hafiz Muhammad Saeed, the self-confessed leader of the banned outfit Lashkar-e-Taiba, may think that Pakistan is the best Islamic nation for the Bollywood star, Shahrukh Khan to move to, but it is India that is arguably the best Muslim country today. Muslims in India enjoy complete political and religious liberty, a free legislative environment to undertake economic and educational initiatives, a vibrant television media and cinema that teach liberal coexistence, and access to a vast number of universities and institutes of modern education. There is absolutely no Muslim country that offers such a vast array of freedoms to its people.

    India is able to offer these freedoms to its citizens because it is a successful democracy. It was good for India to lose the 1857 war; if the British had lost, Indians would have continued to be governed by kings and nawabs, and under shari’a courts that existed during the Mughal era. At the time of independence, the British left behind a justice system that was blind to religious and caste inequities in Indian society, an inclusive democracy that guaranteed equal rights and religious and political freedoms for all; English language that opened doorway to enlightenment and scientific education; and a civil service that treated everyone as Indians rather than Muslims, Hindus or Christians. Muslims in India enjoy these freedoms because India is a thriving democracy, unlike Pakistan that chose a discriminatory constitution, barring its own citizens from holding top positions such as the president of Pakistan because they are Hindus or Christians. Over the past half century, hundreds of millions of Dalits and women have found political empowerment and social freedoms in Indian democracy.

    Religion cannot be a good model of governance for modern times because it fails to imagine situations in which non-Muslim citizens could be trusted to govern a Muslim country. Conversely, democracies trust their citizens irrespective of their faith. In a democracy like India, any citizen could compete to be the elected ruler. As democracy matures, India has appointed its Muslim citizens to top positions, currently Hamid Ansari as vice president, Salman Khurshid as foreign minister, Justice Altamas Kabir as Chief Justice, and Syed Asif Ibrahim as the chief of the Intelligence Bureau. It is also true that Muslims lag behind in India’s collective life, but this is because they are under the influence of orthodox ulema or because Muslim politicians fail to imagine themselves as leaders of all Indians. A Muslim politician will be the country's prime minister the day Indian Muslims begin to view themselves as leaders of all Indians and not only of Muslims, much like Barack Obama who imagined himself as a leader not only of blacks, but of all Americans.

    Effectively, India is a ‘western’ country. In the popular imagination, the west is viewed as a geographic concept, covering mainly the United States, Britain and parts of Europe. However, the ground realities are otherwise. Several countries, notably Australia, New Zealand, Japan and South Korea, are situated in the east, but in terms of their values and politics are firmly part of the west. Conversely, countries such as Russia and some in Latin America are geographically in the west but cannot be called a western country as their citizens do not enjoy the social and political freedoms available to free people in the west. The organising principles of Indian polity and society are the same that define a western country: a multi-party system, individualism, liberty, a free press and rule of law. As in a western country, consensus about governance, politics and society is moderated by media and political parties and is derived from differences rather than similarities of religion and ideology as in Saudi Arabia or North Korea.

    Early this year, Shahrukh Khan wrote a long article in which he discussed how “stereotyping and contextualizing” determine the way societies treat us as individuals as we interact with others. Khan narrated that he is loved as a Bollywood star in every country, but is also questioned by officials at US airports over links to terrorists, as his surname is shared by an unknown terrorist. Khan also observed: “There have been occasions when I have been accused of bearing allegiance to our neighbouring nation [Pakistan].” Hafiz Saeed reacted to this statement, suggesting that Khan, and presumably all Indian Muslims, should move to Pakistan. If Khan were to move to Pakistan, think of the images he would witness everyday: the genocide of Shia Muslims; the Taliban bombers shooting girls and namazis; Karachi up in flames and Pakistani businessmen leaving the country; plight of Hindus and Christians and lawlessness everywhere.

    Saeed and his cohorts must bear in mind that terrorism that affects Muslims in India originates from Pakistan: the jihad in Kashmir through the 1990s or the attacks by Indian Mujahideen collaborating with their controllers in Pakistan. Like any country, India has its own share of extremist Hindus as well as Islamic and naxalite militants, but the courts are taking care of them.

    Indian democracy is a model for all Islamic countries. It is the only country where Muslims have experienced democracy solidly for more than half a century; the other countries where Muslims have had some democratic experience are Indonesia and Turkey but their experiences have been limited to just a few decades. Democracies trust their citizens and are accountable to them. Democracies also bring freedom and economic prosperity for their people. In his book, Development as Freedom, Nobel laureate Amartya Sen demonstrated that famines have occurred only in countries governed under authoritarianism while freedom available to people in democracies has ensured economic welfare of their entire populations. Indian democracy has a large Muslim population, about the same as in Pakistan. As democracy matures and economy prospers, Muslims in India are beginning to benefit from a sea of economic and educational opportunities opening before them.

    Islamic and authoritarian countries like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and North Korea do not trust their own people. Islamic terrorists, jihadists like Hafiz Saeed and other Taliban-like Islamists think of defending their religions and ideologies rather than the interests and welfare of their people. It is due to such thinking that 180 million people of Pakistan are today literally buried under the weight of a failed education system, a rapidly collapsing Pakistani economy that is forcing business leaders to move their money to countries such Sri Lanka, lawlessness that makes common Pakistanis insecure in their own homes and a future that fails to offer hope. The Inter-Services Intelligence, a friend of Saeed that imagines itself as the ideological guardian of the Islamic state of Pakistan, could do a favour by trusting the Pakistani people and letting them decide their own course of life and governance.

    The writer is a former BBC Urdu Service journalist, is Director of South Asia Studies Project at the Middle East Media Research Institute, Washington DC.

    http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2013\03\16\story_16-3-2013_pg3_5
     
  2.  
  3. amoy

    amoy Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2010
    Messages:
    5,523
    Likes Received:
    1,547
    This paragraph is particularly interesting


    No efforts have been spared against Pakistan?! What abt Bangladesh? A Muslim democracy?
     
    SPIEZ likes this.
  4. anoop_mig25

    anoop_mig25 Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    5,195
    Likes Received:
    2,223
    it looks good on paper but most of muslims seems to unsatisfied , they have grouse that they have been cheated.look i am taking about local muslims. once my collage in second year told that they must be given back what was yours and i asked him what was that and he said that muslims used to rule india and that must be given to back to them.
     
  5. SPIEZ

    SPIEZ Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2011
    Messages:
    3,507
    Likes Received:
    1,009
    So did the British, Hindu's, Budhists, Jainists.
    Your friend seems to have some history problems.
     
    Tolaha, gokussj9 and W.G.Ewald like this.
  6. Shirman

    Shirman Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2012
    Messages:
    689
    Likes Received:
    395
    Location:
    Siyasat-e-Hind
    my friend tell your college friend that he is one Aurangzeb-era idiot relic fit for one-paisa museum auction.......... n look towards Bangladesh n Pakistan......
     
  7. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2009
    Messages:
    24,274
    Likes Received:
    11,283
    Location:
    BANGalore
    I may be wrong but those who think that way are either the Razarkars kind or people who are leading a lowly life and pretty disenchanted. These guys are probably taught the glory of Muslim empires and think they would have been better off if the Muslims were ruling today.

    Years of vote bank politics has not helped. They have been kept uneducated and not fully integrated into the progress enjoyed by the affluent class. They have failed to adapt and nange with times. I can find many reasons but one thing is for sure, they fully understand their destiny is in India. It's just that they have to start to open their minds.
     
    bharata likes this.
  8. The Messiah

    The Messiah Bow Before Me! Elite Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2010
    Messages:
    10,788
    Likes Received:
    4,552
    I stopped reading there.
     
    gokussj9 likes this.
  9. arnabmit

    arnabmit Homo Communis Indus Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2012
    Messages:
    5,894
    Likes Received:
    5,859
    Location:
    Kolkata
    I recently came across some interesting news from near the Sunderbans...

    I met a few residents of the area and this is what was said verbatim about what happened last month...

    recently there has been a huge influx of JeI from BD. Tensions are already high.

    The are has approx 50 muslim families and a thousand hindu and tribal families.

    In one of the muslim family land disputes, a nephew killed an uncle and dumped the body in a hindu area. This started a communal war.

    Muslims claimed that hindus killed him, and started killing hindus.

    Hindus retaliated in overwhelming numbers.

    Muslims played the ummah card and called in Bihari muslims for help. Was joined in by JeI as well.

    RSS came in and quietened the situation and contributed with food and shelter.

    WBG was quiet all along. Police prosecuted hindus and RSS for atrocities against minorities.
     
  10. JBH22

    JBH22 Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2010
    Messages:
    3,620
    Likes Received:
    2,390
    that day it will not be a muslim PM but INDIAN PM
     
    HEILTAMIL likes this.
  11. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2011
    Messages:
    6,687
    Likes Received:
    2,357
    Their problems relate to their poverty which further relate to the conditions of those people in history when they converted. The conversion unfortunately did not improve their lot economically and Muslim rulers in India were not socialist with socio economic agenda.

    Poverty, illiteracy, unemployment or employment in unaorganised sectors is the root cause of their conditions. As if it was not enough, the rich and affluents amonst them left for Pakistan leaving them behind high and dry. The British colonialism effected them the most being artisans and skilled labour as the indigenious industry and trade met the doom. Their looms, Carpentry, blacksmith and other machanical skills were allowed to perish in favour of manufactured goods from England. British rule for them, therefore, was largest cause for their economic deprivation.

    However in the southern states such as Kerala and Tamilnadu they are as good or as bad as anybody else as they are engaged in those economic activities which survived such as fishing and agriculture.
     
    Known_Unknown likes this.
  12. HEILTAMIL

    HEILTAMIL Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2013
    Messages:
    238
    Likes Received:
    57
    Location:
    UNION OF INDIA
    the government should establish communal centres to teach the philosophies of islam to hindus and hinduism to islam, from the help of scholars arising out of that center, they should be able to resolve peacefully their differences in their clash of ideas
    both communities will bring peace and prosperity to each other,
    Long Live communal peace and harmony ,.
     
    W.G.Ewald likes this.
  13. anoop_mig25

    anoop_mig25 Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    5,195
    Likes Received:
    2,223
    Well i too replied to him with same but he said pre-muslims it was all chaos in india and muslims brought stability
     
  14. bharata

    bharata Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2013
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Forum
    :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

    India was ruled by buddhists and hindus first and english last ....
     
  15. SPIEZ

    SPIEZ Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2011
    Messages:
    3,507
    Likes Received:
    1,009
    He hasn't heard of the Golden age (Budhist).

    Chanakya ( Jain) Ashoka (Budhist). All previously Hindu's.

    Tell him about the South, which was predominantly ruled by Hindus and how they conquered Indo-China :pfft:
     
    gokussj9 likes this.
  16. gokussj9

    gokussj9 Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,068
    Likes Received:
    1,137
    Location:
    USA
    They specifically were invaders of central asian lineage. A large population of Indian Muslims I believe does not have that.(Even Jinnah didn't). Until unless IM's understand this, poverty and radicalization will prevail among them to some degree or other.
     
  17. gokussj9

    gokussj9 Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,068
    Likes Received:
    1,137
    Location:
    USA
    Indian government really needs to check what is version history of subcontinent according to muslims.
     
    HEILTAMIL likes this.
  18. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2011
    Messages:
    6,687
    Likes Received:
    2,357
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
  19. SPIEZ

    SPIEZ Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2011
    Messages:
    3,507
    Likes Received:
    1,009
    Ask him to smoke some weed and play some sport, instead of discussing history like an old hag
     
  20. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2009
    Messages:
    24,274
    Likes Received:
    11,283
    Location:
    BANGalore
    I am sure he has not gone to a public school.
     
    gokussj9 and arnabmit like this.
  21. A chauhan

    A chauhan "अहिंसा परमो धर्मः धर्म हिंसा तथैव च: l" Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2009
    Messages:
    4,928
    Likes Received:
    4,563
    Location:
    Raipur
    The purpose of history is to learn, to understand, to take wise decisions, to teach to avoid wrong decisions. I'll repeat true history should be taught in the schools, it can control the rising false Islamic victimhood and radicalisation in India which is damaging the communal harmony.
     
    HEILTAMIL likes this.

Share This Page