Debunking a Myth: Pakistan's 'Mighty' modified Harpoon

Discussion in 'Strategic Forces' started by Rage, Sep 10, 2009.

  1. Rage

    Rage DFI TEAM Stars and Ambassadors

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    Debunking A Myth

    September 8, 2009


    India-based intellectuals, be they civilians dabbling in strategic affairs or even serving or retired armed services chiefs, have repeatedly demonstrated a remarkable consistency in making ludicrous and largely discredited claims about Pakistan’s military-industrial capabilities that seemingly tend to give the Pakistan Armed Forces a debilitating force projection superiority over their Indian counterparts.


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    The latest such accusation to have surfaced concerns the alleged efforts by the Pakistan Navy to modify its ship-launched Boeing-built RGM-84A and submarine-launched UGM-84A Harpoon anti-ship cruise missiles (of 1984 vintage) into ship-launched 50nm-range dual-role anti-ship strike and land attack precision-guided missiles. True or false? Can such modifications be done covertly without any involvement by the guided-missile’s OEM?


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    The best and most convincing answer comes from none other than the OEM itself—Boeing Integrated Defense Systems, which had by the mid-1990s successfully modified the Harpoon into precision-guided land attack missile called SLAM-ER (standoff land attack missile-extended range), and had also developed the related Harpoon Shipboard Command Launch Control System and the AWW-14 data-link pod (this being for the air-launched variant of the SLAM-ER). The above slides clearly demonstrate what exactly were the modifications carried out by Boeing IDS on the basic Harpoon, and how this missile has since evolved into the SLAM-ER (which is now being offered to the Indian Air Force along with both the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and F-16IN Super Viper medium multi-role combat aircraft). Taking the cue from the SLAM-ER, both MBDA and Israel Military Industries (IMI) have adopted the same optronics-based precision-guidance approach for their SCALP and Delilah air-/ship-/submarine-launched standoff land attack missiles (as has the Pakistan Air Force with the Ra’ad air-launched land attack cruise missile).


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    Consequently, it emerges from the above that for any Pakistani military-industrial entity to modify the Harpoon into a LACM, it would not only have to radically redesign the missile’s nose section, but will also have to develop a passive optronic sensor and integrate it with the missile’s inertial navigation system, develop a new Shipboard Command Launch Control System, and develop the airborne data-link pod so that the LACM can be provided with over-the-horizon targetting (OTHT) cues at its terminal cruise phase. Which means, while the LACM will have to be launched from a warship lurking dangerously close to a hostile coastline, a defenceless manned airborne platform (either fixed-wing or rotary-winged) too will have to be in the warship’s immediate vicinity for providing OTHT cues.


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    Given such daunting R & D challenges, wouldn’t it be much easier for Pakistan to acquire and deploy ground-/air-/ship-launched LACMs like the Babur and Ra’ad, both of which not only have much longer engagement envelopes, but also heavier warheads for guaranteeing assured target destruction? And if at all it is so easy to modify or even reverse-engineer anti-ship cruise missiles of 1980s vintage, then can someone explain why the DRDO’s labs (like the DRDL, GTRE, IRDE and DARE) have still been unable to reverse-engineer the decommissioned BAE Systems-built Sea Eagle anti-ship cruise missiles (whose performance parameters closely resembled those of the Harpoon A) that have now been decommissioned and are available for total strip-down and cloning? Why has the DRDO been unable to re-engineer the Sea Eagle into an unmanned high-speed target drone capable of subjecting the Indian Navy's Barak-1 and Kashtan-M close-in anti-missile defence systems to some pretty realistic threat simulation environments of the kind expected to be faced in wartime? Why does this operational requirement (for the drones) remain unfulfilled till this day?



    —Prasun K. Sengupta


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    http://trishulgroup.blogspot.com/2009/09/debunking-myth.html
     
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  3. ajay_ijn

    ajay_ijn Regular Member

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    true rage, not many would have the entire list technical modifications required to convert a missile from anti-ship to land attack.

    I am mean look at Brahmos, it took some tests and modification before it became LACM. It is yet to be air borne or sub launched despite the talk indicates the engineering challenges involved with a missile.


    The only way a missile can have land attack capability is by having IIR or Radar or GPS. GPS can be blocked by US. there is no way pak can add IIR or Radar sensor modifying the missile significantly.

    But can China do it? there is a possibility. still even that would take time.
    may be its like that J-10/F-16.
     
  4. natarajan

    natarajan Senior Member Senior Member

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    one serious doubt arises in my mind is that taliban dont have navy then why usa provided antiship missiles so it is openly arming pakistan to counter india?
    if so then why should we buy weapons from them and make them more rich
     
  5. Daredevil

    Daredevil On Vacation! Administrator

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    These missile were bought by Pakistan during Reagan administration, in 80s.
     
  6. ahmedsid

    ahmedsid Top Gun Senior Member

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    A Little more reading would do good before making such sweeping comments!!!

    Americans have been arming Pakistan with some good weaponry in the 80s especially. The F16s when delivered where top notch technology, and these missiles too were. It has nothing to do with today.
     
  7. ajay_ijn

    ajay_ijn Regular Member

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    1980s America supplied weapons coz they needed to Pakistan to create Taliban, Mujahideen forces to defeat Soviets.

    21s Century american is doing coz they need pakistan to destroy same Taliban.

    probably becoz Relationship involves give and take. Pakistan is probably asking US for weapons everytime they negotiate. For US, its like throw the guy a bone. That is how Pak has built its military. they are accepting whatever US & China will say but in return the only thing they want is weapons for free.

    Pakistan is probably so obsessed that there is no other way to deal with them other than giving some weapons. This is probably out of their fear or obsession towards India. if they don't beg for weapons, their conventional military will become even inferior compared to India.
     
  8. Energon

    Energon DFI stars Stars and Ambassadors

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    What makes Harpoons stand out is their quick reflex navigation system and accuracy (hitting moving sea borne platforms is an extremely difficult task) which is something still being perfected by the Chinese. The US Congress wouldn't initiate such a large inquiry if there wasn't something to it (other than a Hindu-Zionist conspiracy of course). I can totally see why Pakistan would want to modify any western missile systems such as the Harpoons.
     
  9. tiger usa

    tiger usa New Member

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    Actually Pakistan is not obsessed with India, it seems the other way around. Pakistan fought India 3 times despite India being 3.5 times it size. PAF is the only Air Force who did dog fights with the Soviet Union from 1979-1988 in Afghanistan, with a track record of 43 Soviet Kills to 1 F-16 shot down of the PAF. Did thousands of ground operations against the Red Army in Afgahnistan and defeated them, with the help of US and Nato, no doubt. But then why not it was not Pakistan's fight alone to stop communism. Even Nato did not even did a single head on dog fight with Warsaw Pact or USSR Air Force. Pakistan Armed Forces have fought in many conflicts in the Middle East, Somalia, Bosnia, Operation Desert Shield, Operation Desert Storm etc.. Has the most success in the mountains against the Taliban/Al-Qaeda compared to any Nato Countries or the US. All fighting capabilities have been built over the decades and is no fluke. Military Aid is recived by Pakistan, just like Israel, Jordan or Egypt get Aid. You can say "For US, its like throw the guy a bone", but then we just have to see the facts.
     
  10. Rage

    Rage DFI TEAM Stars and Ambassadors

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    'Ersatz' reality at its best!

    Your committed, non-fictional, non-fanboyish source for the claim that PAF effectuated "43 'Soviet' kills"? I'm waiting for Vladimir to see this - he's likely to rip you a new one.

    For your information:

    - Of the three wars you have fought against us, you have utterly lost one--- miserably, and have ceded more territorial gains to India in the other two with significantly higher overall casualty and attrition rates.

    - Despite having the most arable lands in all of the subcontinent, you are reduced to buying food and grain from other countries like India even before the truant monsoon or the financial crisis (from which you are relatively insulated) hit your farms. THAT is the "reality".

    - India is 4 times your size with 7 times your population. Despite having a significantly smaller population to land area ratio, you have more people living in poverty, far greater political instability and a much lower HDI ranking.

    - Despite receiving more than 12 billion dollars in foreign aid in the last half-decade alone, you have a stagnating armed forces inventory, a faltering economy, and a failing state that is consistently ranked with Sudan, Chad and Somalia among the world's top failed states. That is, yet another "reality".

    - Pakisthan's regular "armed forces" have never fought in the "conflicts in the Middle East, Bosnia, Somalia, Operation Desert Shield" or any of the other conflicts you've come up with. Your source for these frivolous claims? Perhaps you're using the term "armed forces" as a pseudonym for the "mujahideen", then again these very same mujahideen have and continue to wage war and evince a stranglehold over your country- that is, yet another, irony of the reality we face.

    - Pakisthan's "obsession" with India is very conspicuous in everything from its "obsession" with Bollywood, its "obsession" with Indian fashion, music and slang, its "obsession" with the number of India's people living under the poverty line as jealous proof of the 'utter failure' of India's advancing economic growth, its "obsession" with its myriad, agglomerating arms purchases, and its "obsession" with Indian leaders in pre- and post-independence & partition history, and even in its "obsession" with its laconic, ridiculous old concocted adages like: "one Pakisthanie for every ten Indians", laid more morose, ironic and bare by the fact that 90,000 prisoners of war from pakisthan surrendered their arms at our feet in 1971.

    - No doubt you understand that justifying more than a dozen billion dollars in aid to Pakisthan with recourse to the argument that "Israel, Jordan and Egypt" also received it is frivolous and pathetic. In the past four years alone, Pakisthan has received more in economic and military aid than the other three combined. I trust you won't seek to justify your nation's failings with those of others', for in doing so, you put your nation in the same abysmal league as them- (then again, perhaps it already is).
     
  11. tiger usa

    tiger usa New Member

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    Lets keep the emotion out dear member and talk facts. Please show me USSR on the map, if it exists. There dream of reaching the warm waters to the Arabian sea remained a dream, until they were forced to withdraw and then collapsed as an Empire.

    I will answer few of your points one by one, no rush.

    Yes, it a fact that 90,000 soldiers surrendered because I base my messages on facts. The soldiers did the right thing. When the Pakistani soldiers used to patrol in Dacca through the markets or bazars the Bengalis used to spit on them. There are many political reasons for that, but Pakistani soldiers did not want to die for people that spit on them. Yes, India fought a proxy war through terrorists "The Muqti Bani" for 22 years, but never went for a conventional war to start with.

    All of the Indian history that I have read states that India won the 1948 War. So lets get this fact straight. 100% of Kashmir was inside India when the war started and Pakistan captured 18% of Kashmir territory during the war which you guys call POK, but Indian history states India won the war.

    Yes, when I was growing up lot of people had a charm for watching Indian channels, but since there are 70+ Pakistani channels, the charm for Indian TV has faded in the last 20 years.

    We are proud that we had the opportunity to fight in the Arab-Israel Wars. Though the special forces and pilots did join the 4th day of the 1967 war, but had there share of action.

    Though the Serb did rape 4000 muslim women in Bosnia, but after the arrival of 9,000 Pakistani soldiers and 6,000 Iranians soldiers, they just did not have to courage do do that anymore to do what they were doing. Pakistani forces are still in Bosnia and helped Bosnia gain independence.

    Regarding the obsession of Indians with Pakistan. It is more in civilans and then Indian military. Went to UAE, Indain stores Indo-Pak Groceries, went to UK, Canada Indian Stores Indo-Pak Groceries, Indo-Pak Movies-Dramas, Indo-Pak Calling Cards, live in the US, Indian stores have the Pak work with it on their signs. Why not Indo-Bhutan, or Indo-Bangaldesh, or Indo-Nepal, why is always Indo-Pak, is that Indian obsession or what?

    More later. Facts dear member and keep the emotion out.
     
  12. Daredevil

    Daredevil On Vacation! Administrator

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    So, they hated you guys in your own country that they had to spit on their country's soldiers. What a pathetic state for a soldier to be in, no wonder Bangladesh seceded from Pakistan. Don't you forget the genocide perpetrated by your Army though which was the trigger for 1971 war.

    In 1948, Kashmir was not acceded to India, it was still an independent state. The moment the Pakistani army and lashkars entered the Kashmir and started overtaking it, Maharaja Hari Singh of J&K has signed the instrument of accession to India. That is when Indian army came into picture. From greater than 50% occupied land which includes Srinagar, you have been reduced to 18% land that you still occupy now. It is obvious that India won the war. So, get the facts straight before you come and post garbage here.

    But people from Pakistan believe otherwise. They are still charmed by Indian soap operas and bollywood movies. Here is an latest article for you
    Cultural invasion by India

    It's the other way around my dear confused friend. It is the Pakistani grocery/restaurant owners who pass it off as Indian stores/restaurants to get more customers and so add Indo- in all of the Pakistani stores. If it were advertised as just Pakistani stores/restaurants, they would be left with customers who would be just houseflies and mosquitoes :D

    PS: I've never seen Indo-Pak stores, its just either Indian stores or South Asian stores :wink:.
     
  13. wild goose

    wild goose Regular Member

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    Being ignorant is not a crime, so cheer up mate.
     
  14. Rage

    Rage DFI TEAM Stars and Ambassadors

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    Awww. I'm sorry. Did I bust your chops?

    What is this another one of your attempts at projection-accusation?


    The USSR's collapse did not "owe itself entirely" to the CIA-contrived, Pakisthanie-sponsored mujahideen in Afghanistan. That is a self-deifying pakistanie trick. It would be NAIVE of you to think that the failed campaign in Afghanistan was the, or even the primary cause of the Soviet Union's downfall. The causes of the Soviet Union's collapse were several- not least the crumbling of its economic and political institutions and the patchwork attempts at reforms that ensued, the depletion of currency reserves on account of Raegan's-Saudi Arabia oil collusion, the mass abandonment of communism by its satellite states in Eastern Europe, "the war of the laws" and the period of legal uncertainty that followed, and most importantly, the attempted 'August Coup' by members of the government and hardline ranks of the KGB against Gorbachev that tipped the balance of power significantly towards the republics. Stop panegyrizing yourself with overweighted attributions please.


    You will, and have, answered nothing. Except to reiterate morose pakisthanie arguments that only serve to demonstrate your fatuity.


    The soldiers laid their arms down at our feet because they were thoroughly outfought, outthought and outmaneuvered. That laid bare the chimeral, clichéd old adage of: "one pakisthanie for every ten Indians" that Zia so zealously sought to justify and propagate.

    If not for the people, then surely for your territory should pakisthanie soldiers have fought in 1971. Or are you suggesting that Bangladesh was not a sovereign part of your territory or never was? The Mukti Bahini, that rag-tag group of militia with little more than 50% of its 5 - 10 member guerilla teams armed with weapons, could NEVER have won the war without Indian assistance. The war was won primarily by the Indian Army, the Indian Navy and AirForce, and was only secondarily a proxy struggle. Get your facts straight.

    22 years? Your ability to concoct figures out of your arse is impressive! The "Muqti Bani" owe their existence to the brutal suppression of rising political discontent and cultural nationalism among the East-Pakisthanies by the ruling elite of West-Pakisthan under "Operation Searchlight" after the anti-Ayub uprising -- in 1969. India armed the core of the Mukti Bahini after a sea of approximately 10 million refugees crossed over into our north-eastern provinces in late 1969-early70. Ergo, 2 years, not 22.


    Let's get YOUR facts straight bubba. In 1948, Kashmir was disputed territory under the sovereign of Maharajah Hari Singh. Neither to Hindostaan or Pakistan had it ceded. Following an invasion of irregular armed forces under regular Pakisthanie troops to precipitate Kashmiri secession to Pakisthan, Hari Singh entered into secret negotiations with Indian leaders, and thereafter signed the Instrument of Accession to the Indian Union. Following this, the Union airlifted troops into the region, where they established a defensive parameter around Srinagar, defeated AZK forces on the outskirts of the city, and purused them to as far as Baramulla and Uri and recaptured these towns. Prior to this however, AZk forces had defeated the forces of the princely state in the border regions of Muzaffarbaad and Domel, and had besieged them in the Punch valley. This is attested to by the UNCIP First Report, S/1100. In Gilgit, the state paramilitary forces (the Gilgit Scouts) mutinied and joined the invading AZK forces, who thereby obtained control of this northern region of the state. The AZK forces were then also joined by troops from Chitral, whose ruler, the Mehtar of Chitral, had acceded to Pakistan. Despite this, the reinforcement of multiple mutinying state paramilitaries, and the ever larger participation of pakisthanie troops engaging the war, the forces of AZK managed only to capture Mirpur and Jhanger subsequently, launched numerous unsuccessful assaults against Nowshera like they were throwing bodies against a wall, lost Uri, Chamb, Jhanger and Rajauri to Indian troops under Op. Vijay, and proceeded to lose Tithwail in the Spring offensive. The only notable successes they achieved were the brief capture of Kargil, which they lost to Indian troops prior to the cessation of all hostilities, and the defeat of a small relief column moving northward to Skardu. In the meantime, the Indian forces relieved Punch after a year-long siege, defeated the Gilgit forces in the Upper Himalayas, recaptured the Zoji-la pass using tanks, and retook Drass, and pursued as far as Kargil before they were forced to relent because of inclement weather and logistical problems. You can only imagine the fate that would have befallen you if we did not have to subject ourselves to those irks of war. The only other notable territorial gain that accrued to Pakisthan other than the northern regions, was the town of Skardu, which forces of the Chitral state captured for you under Mata-ul-Mulk with the help of artillery against the Jammu & Kashmir princely state forces, and -- nothing else. Which is why we believe we won that war.

    Notwithstanding the fact that the Hindu Maharajah of Kashmir in fact temporized on accession in the hope that he might win independence, and that provision having been precluded from the India Independence Act, it was likely that he would have ceded to Pakistan if Pakistan had not indulged in an irregular invasion of Kashmir under regular troops.


    You're funny lad. Bollywood and everything Indian have only proliferated in Pakisthan since "when you were growing up"- from bootlegged movie CD's smuggled in via Dubai to pirated music DVD's to magazines and tabloids to slang to cheesey soap operas and what not. musalman/Kashif will confirm. In any case, we are happy for you to have them. Our own youth have grown tired of cheap Bollywood thrills and are increasingly taking to alternative, more attractive and productive passtimes.


    Sure, if you consider a maximum of four, 'disputed' kills by a couple of PAF pilots on leave from the Pakisthanie Air Force to fight with the Royal Jordanian Air Force, flying Royal Jordanian AF Hawker Hunters for ideological reasons to be "your share" of the action.


    What "Pakistani soldiers"? Do not confuse that posse of armed guerrilla volunteer-mujahideen insurgents with "troops". If your reference is to the 3000 peacekeeping troops under two UN designates to Bosnia in 1994, then we, as do Bangladesh and many others , have several such laudable achievements to our credit.


    Do you realize that you have inadvertently complemented our industriousness and enterpreneurial zeal? Storing "pakisthanie calling cards" and "Indo-Pak groceries" and "Indo-Pak movies/dramas" (although I fail to see where the "pak" element in the "dramas" comes from) is not 'obsession'. It is a testament to our business acumen. Most "Indo-Pak" stores in the West and in the UAE are Indian-owned, and they sell "pak movies" and "dramas" and "calling cards" and "groceries" because: a) they can improve their customer base, sales, profits and whatever the f&ck not ; and b) Indo-Pak cuisine: which is typically North-Indian- the distinguishing 'face' of Indian cuisine in the West, and Pakisthanie Punjabi, use almost the same kind of spices, ingredients and recipes in their cooking. Indo-Bangladeshi cuisine would be typically Bangladeshi-Bengali, and there are far fewer Indian Bengalis in the West than there are Indian Punjabis and North-Indians. Indo-Bhutanese cuisine would, to my mind, be typical of North-east Indian cuisine, but the North-east is so far-flung and sparsely populated, that there are far too few of its natives in the West. Indo-Nepali cuisine is predominantly Newari cuisine, which would never be popular in the West because it is spicy (more spicy even than what the average Indian eats_ and makes use of vegetables that grow in the foothills of the Himalayas. You do see 'Indo-Sri Lankan' stores catering to the large expat Tamil refugee community from SriLanka though, even though there are far fewer numbers of Indian Tamils in the West.

    Business acumen is not something you immediately seem to grasp.


    "Emotion"? You ain't seen no EMOTION yet son. Keep your flimflam masquerading as 'facts' up your cornhole. We don't want to hear such claptrap.
     
  15. tarunraju

    tarunraju Moderator Moderator

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    They are doing what they do best. Modify weapons to an extant that they can use plausible denial to coverup that they stepped the lines. This is further covered up by the US, which does one thing on paper, and another on the ground. Even these modified Harpoons don't measure up to BrahMos I. With BrahMos II we will have achieved superiority by 2012.

    Because we are pan-Indian people with racial ties beyond religion and politics. You'll find the same "obsession" between people of PRC and ROC, the two Koreas, and the Canadians with Americans, more or less.
     

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