Dealing with Pakistan

Dark Sorrow

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Do u know how many ppl died 'coz filthy M*** riots in India,if % of M**** increased more riots all over India again.So I always concern poor ppl who die in riots.
Is this your way of justifying that our soldiers should continue to die on the border. Have you tried to find out the reason for the riots. If all communities have good eduction and employment opportunities this will improve the standard of living and naturally rioting will go down.
You want to focus on Pakistan but not consider uplifting of our fellow brothers and sisters.
What do u meaning of solve if u compare deaths some 6000/yr in 1988 to 200 now.So what u want zero :rofl:this is India even 17 died in paris.
Both numbers are bad. I will be happy when we have 0/yr deaths. What is the guarantee that the number won't increase this year. Pakistan will surly increase problems to us if we cause problems to them.
We fortified border with Pork!stan unlike BD or open border Nepal.So don't worry i believe in my army.They can shoot any terrorist who want to intrude common man is just a ...
I believe border against Bangladesh has now been fortified but still there is illegal immigration.
If BD don't got independence we may already lost our entire north east flu-dded by illegals.So we are not paid,but we saved entire NE.
What has independence of Bangladesh got to do with flooding our North East with illegal. It is still happening. The reason we entered 1971 war because we wanted to dispel two nation theory, show Pakistan their place and mainly to shut down eastern from once and for all.
 

Mad Indian

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@Dark Sorrow I am moved by your humanitarian approach.

So I have converted to your philosophy of winning terrorists with love from my logic of dealing them with logic and rationality. You can start this campaign of yours and set an example for every Indian around by marrying off your daughters/sisters/cousins or whomever you have for spreading love potential with from your family to the the Jihadists:thumb:.

Be the prophet of change . You should also try this on Rapists:thumb:

PS: ----ing daughter selling brigades:frusty:
 
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Nicky G

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unless we have another lal bahadur shastri who took pre-emptive action in 1965 - although you are generally
right about the slowness, happily there are also times when the goi can surprise us all !
nules are not a bluff and that paklanders know that the international community is against them
having them which is why they are driving them around the roads of packland
with radiation spilling all over the place - in that sense pak is already nuking themselves ! :toilet:
Nukes are bluff in the sense that Pak is never going to use them, even the tactical nukes they have to use on their own soil, since India's doctrine dictates full retaliation in case of any attack on Indian assets anywhere.

The international community (read US) let them have the weapons and are not going to take serious actions to take them away unless Pak establishment disintegrates enough that there is a serious risk of them falling in hands of the crazies. My point was India should help accelerate this disintegration.

in terms of denuking packland , it is a major objective of many foreign entities and the paks know it
so they are already putting their nukes in vans and drive all over the place to hide from surveillance etc
Its not an immediate objective, we should help make it one.
 

Dark Sorrow

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@Dark Sorrow I am moved by your humanitarian approach.

So I have converted to your philosophy of winning terrorists with love from my logic of dealing them with logic and rationality. You can start this campaign of yours and set an example for every Indian around by marrying off your daughters/sisters/cousins or whomever you have for spreading love potential with from your family to the the Jihadists:thumb:.
I am talking about flipping terrorist with money and not winning them by love. Their is an enormous difference between the two approaches. Flipping them using money is a time tested approach and is currently used by American and they are pretty much successful. Only useless hippies talk about winning over the terrorist by love.
What I am talking about is making a Pakistani trained terrorist fight against them.
We must create a situation where brother is ready to fight against his brother and this will only happen if their are economic consideration affecting them (Pakistanis). This can only be made possible through trade and not by RAW, DIA, etc.
We have fought for 50 years and still have no results. Its time to change our strategy.
 
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Bangalorean

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I am talking about flipping terrorist with money and not winning them by love. Their is an enormous difference between the two approaches. Flipping them using money is a time tested approach and is currently used by American and they are pretty much successful. Only useless hippies talk about winning over the terrorist by love.
What I am talking about is making a Pakistani trained terrorist fight against them.
We must create a situation where brother is ready to fight against his brother and this will only happen if their are economic consideration affecting them (Pakistanis). This can only be made possible through trade and not by RAW, DIA, etc.
We have fought for 50 years and still have no results. Its time to change our strategy.
If you say that we should spend money to foment dissent in Pakistan (Baloch versus Punjabi, Pashtun versus state, etc.), I am totally with you.

I don't agree that "trade with Pakis" will help in any way.

And anyone who suggests reunification of India and Pakistan needs to be admitted into a mental asylum.
 

Dark Sorrow

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WTF r u talking i even not justify killing 'Chicken' forgot a man.Anyway soldier knows his life is in danger b4 join defence so he made his choice and his family will get pension &incentives unlike poor who die in riots.So my concern always for poor.For god sake come out of this these scums can't live in France/Germany how can u imagine they live peace with kafir Hindus :lol:
So what are your suggestion? How does fighting with Pakistan help us solve local problems?
So teach Israel join with Palestinian,Burmese join with moslems.So prob is muslims.
I don't care whats happening in Israel. I only care about India. By the way Israel doesn't loose as many soldiers on their border as we loose on ours.
that is the prob. :lol:
What do you mean by prob.???
I couldn't understand your statement.
Do u know TFR of BD @70's is 6+ ,India&Pak is 4+.... now Ind,pak is 2.4 and 3 and BD is 2.2.If they are in unrest/turmoil BD pop will not be 15 cr it may minimun 30 cr where they live.... check map 3 sides surrounded by India,like u said
What are this ratings? I fail to understand what you wish to say.
 

Dark Sorrow

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If you say that we should spend money to foment dissent in Pakistan (Baloch versus Punjabi, Pashtun versus state, etc.), I am totally with you.
I don't agree that "trade with Pakis" will help in any way.
Baloch versus Punjabi, Pashtun versus state, etc. is the first step.
My ultimate goal is Punjabi vs Punjabi. This will only happen if their i economic dependence of one Punjabi on and other Punjabi is acting against us causing economic loss to the first Punjabi. This can only be achieved through trade. This is exactly what Americans are doing.
And anyone who suggests reunification of India and Pakistan needs to be admitted into a mental asylum.
Who is suggesting that?
 
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Bangalorean

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Baloch versus Punjabi, Pashtun versus state, etc. is the first step.
My ultimate goal is Punjabi vs Punjabi. This will only happen if their i economic dependence of one Punjabi on and other Punjabi is acting against us causing economic loss to the first Punjabi. This can only be achieved through trade. This is exactly what Americans are doing.

Who sugges
You are wrong. Trade with Pakis benefits Pakis a lot, not us.

Indian goods travel all the way to Dubai, and the same goods are imported into Pakistan from Dubai. This results in huge losses to Pakistan. Roundabout route.

What is the benefit to India if direct trade is opened with Pakis? Only they gain.
 

sorcerer

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Chinese are businessmen. They are looking out for their interest. The moment aiding Pakistan goes against their interest the Chinese will dump Pakistan.
its not just the business interest. Pakistan is the retard kid who will readily wear a suicide west all happy and smiling without questions for anything against India. China knows how well to use Pakistan to counter India's progress in Asia. This is the core behind the 2 front threats Indian analysts are pointing out.

The issue that could turn the relationship between Pakistan and China is East Turkestan.

On a different note, however, some analysts have pointed out that the waters beneath the surface of this relation might, in fact, be much more agitated than the public displays would suggest. In particular, it has been argued that the alleged presence of Uyghur militants in North Waziristan, which Beijing hold responsible for several terrorist attacks on its soil, might represent a source of tension between the two countries. In this sense Mushahid Hussain, head of the Defense Committee of the Pakistani Senate and chairman of the Pakistan China institute, in a recent interview seemed to imply that Chinese pressure played some kind of role in the ongoing military operation in Pakistan's North Waziristan, where several ETIM militants are allegedly based.

Pakistan and China: A Precarious Friendship? | The Diplomat

====

First, China-India trade is now larger than both trade between China and Pakistan and trade between India and the United States. Whereas during the late Cold War China had good reasons to unite with Pakistan in undermining India, today Beijing profits from regional stability and normal working relations with New Delhi.
Ask CFR Experts: What is the impact of growing Pakistan-China relations on the United States and India? - Council on Foreign Relations
So naturally this is not economic interest but China - Pak relationship is strategic in nature and its not going to change anytime soon.

If you consider trade between China and Pakistan the geographical distance and conditions plays a big obstacle compared to trade between India and Pakistan.
India and Pak trade affair is decided by the terrorists blowing up stuff. Many a time, we have seen the trade and economic relation getting strained due to the terror episodes happening in India sponsored by Pak .
Is it logical to say that a Pakistan that does not have an economy can be a major asset for Indian trade and economy? We may be able to loan out, provide aid etc..but then again Pak wont have any hesitation or shame to use such against India.

But still
NEW DELHI: Pakistan has yet to grant the most favoured nation (MFN) status to India, Parliament was informed today.

"India and Pakistan have no formal bilateral trade agreement. India granted MFN status to Pakistan in 1996. Pakistan is yet to reciprocate," commerce and industry minister Nirmala Sitharaman said in a written reply to the Rajya Sabha.
Pak yet to grant most favoured nation status to India - The Times of India

Why Pakistan Hasn't Liberalized India Trade
Pakistan will continue to run a long "negative list" of products that India cannot export. The list includes 1,200 products made by key industries for employment and national security but is supposed to be phased out over time. India has a similar, though shorter, list. Last year, Pakistan's government pledged to scrap the list by the end of 2012, another deadline that was missed.

Michael Kugelman, South Asia Associate at Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars, a Washington DC-based research group, says Pakistan's powerful agricultural lobby is a major obstacle to paring down the list. They are concerned about cheap – and better quality – products from India flooding the Pakistan market.
Why Pakistan Hasn’t Liberalized India Trade - India Real Time - WSJ


More ever breaking Pakistan also will have its disadvantages like :
  • More 5 decades of hate between the 2 countries
  • More terrorist attacks on India
  • Illegal migration may cause problems to us
  • Breaking Pakistan may also backfire on us
  • Economic implications to us can't be foreseen
[
This is a good read..
Why the existence of Pakistan is not in India's interest » Indian Defence Review
 

Dark Sorrow

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You are wrong. Trade with Pakis benefits Pakis a lot, not us.

Indian goods travel all the way to Dubai, and the same goods are imported into Pakistan from Dubai. This results in huge losses to Pakistan. Roundabout route.

What is the benefit to India if direct trade is opened with Pakis? Only they gain.
We must not blindly trade.
This is not a single step or immediate effect process that you start trading and all your problems will be solved.
We first have make the retard (as correctly dubbed by Sorcerer) understand that trade will benefit them.
Then we must use our developed sectors like Automobile, Pharmaceutical and medical equipments, Energy, Software, Machinery, Materials, Electronics, etc. to dump our goods in their country.
At the same time we should be ready to import raw materials, rose petals, agricultural products and goods like cement.
This will slowly make their economy dependent on us. For Pakistan trading with India is most economical.
Around this time we should also launch an culture attack on people benefiting form our trade.
We should make the local Pakistani trader/businessman/contractor/etc. economically dependent on us to such extent that any anti-Indian activity by such retard (Army, ISI, or some non-state actor) will cause economical loss to this local Pakistani trader/businessman/contractor/etc. Then the local Pakistani trader/businessman/contractor/etc. will take necessary action against the retard and neutralize the threat then and their.
This is not a single step or immediate effect process. It will takes decades to implement and even more time to see results but we will have to start somewhere. Direct confrontation is not taking us anywhere.
Its high time to change our approach with regards to dealing with Pakistan.
 

Nicky G

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We must not blindly trade.
This is not a single step or immediate effect process that you start trading and all your problems will be solved.
We first have make the retard (as correctly dubbed by Sorcerer) understand that trade will benefit them.
Then we must use our developed sectors like Automobile, Pharmaceutical and medical equipments, Energy, Software, Machinery, Materials, Electronics, etc. to dump our goods in their country.
At the same time we should be ready to import raw materials, rose petals, agricultural products and goods like cement.
This will slowly make their economy dependent on us. For Pakistan trading with India is most economical.
Around this time we should also launch an culture attack on people benefiting form our trade.
We should make the local Pakistani trader/businessman/contractor/etc. economically dependent on us to such extent that any anti-Indian activity by such retard (Army, ISI, or some non-state actor) will cause economical loss to this local Pakistani trader/businessman/contractor/etc. Then the local Pakistani trader/businessman/contractor/etc. will take necessary action against the retard and neutralize the threat then and their.
This is not a single step or immediate effect process. It will takes decades to implement and even more time to see results but we will have to start somewhere. Direct confrontation is not taking us anywhere.
Its high time to change our approach with regards to dealing with Pakistan.
First, how do you convince the retard? Won't you have to go through the real people in in-charge for anything significant? Why would they allow that, since even they would not be foolish enough not to see that any significant trade will make them dependant on India?

Next, how would you account for the trade deficit? Would you be willing to delay payments, offer soft loans etc, knowing where that money is likely to go?

Lets assume in a few years, you achieve all this and Paki trader is dependant on India, why do you believe they'd be any position to influence their government? Are you under the impression that there is anything democratic about that state and its not all a front for the military-ISI nexus?

Besides, don't you think all this has been thought out by our peace-loving leaders and tried in the past on a smaller scale that always got derailed by a war or terror attack?
 

sorcerer

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We must not blindly trade.
This is not a single step or immediate effect process that you start trading and all your problems will be solved.
We first have make the retard (as correctly dubbed by Sorcerer) understand that trade will benefit them.
Then we must use our developed sectors like Automobile, Pharmaceutical and medical equipments, Energy, Software, Machinery, Materials, Electronics, etc. to dump our goods in their country.
This is exactly what the lobby in Pakistan prevented. If you have read the link I posted you would have understood how the MFN status was thwarted by the lobby in Pakistan.
The dump part is exactly what the lobby is preventing. Well, some business men are Pak Politicians themselves. So..

At the same time we should be ready to import raw materials, rose petals, agricultural products and goods like cement.
In the link I have sent,
Wow!! This is epic. India is the second largest producer of cement and we have to import it. :O
Its almost same with agricuture.
Then again India is already importing certain goods.

List of countries by cement production - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Trade across direct routes has been curtailed formally,[79] so the bulk of India-Pakistan trade is routed through Dubai

India–Pakistan relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This will slowly make their economy dependent on us. For Pakistan trading with India is most economical.
You forgot China who will pitch in everytime there is a disparity to counter Indian goods in Pakistan or elsewhere. How cheap can India sell its goods to Pakistan..Lesser than China?
Its my understanding that, Indian sectors find it hard to compete with Chinese products within India,itself..

Economic trade between Pakistan and China is increasing at a rapid pace and a free trade agreement has recently been signed. Military and technological transactions continue to dominate the economic relationship between the two nations, although in recent years China has pledged to vastly increase their investment in Pakistan's economy and infrastructure.
China–Pakistan relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How do you think India can derail Pak investments in China and make Pakistan economically dependent on us.
What makes you think Pakistan establishment will adhere to the idea of depending on a single country for its economy. No country or administration will do that.

Around this time we should also launch an culture attack on people benefiting form our trade.
Oh yeah...Aman ki Thamasha (Aman ki Asha for you)...I remember the cultural attack. HAvent they wrapped up the show after the series of terrorits attacks in India after the Thamasha started!!

We should make the local Pakistani trader/businessman/contractor/etc. economically dependent on us to such extent that any anti-Indian activity by such retard (Army, ISI, or some non-state actor) will cause economical loss to this local Pakistani trader/businessman/contractor/etc. Then the local Pakistani trader/businessman/contractor/etc. will take necessary action against the retard and neutralize the threat then and their.
This will require civilian Govt in Pakistan to have a free hand which Pak army wont give anyway.. Pak populace may raise their voice against their civiian Govt, but never against their army.


This is not a single step or immediate effect process. It will takes decades to implement and even more time to see results but we will have to start somewhere. Direct confrontation is not taking us anywhere.
Its high time to change our approach with regards to dealing with Pakistan.
Starting somewhere, is a good point. That is when the firing across LoC stops and there is peace prevalent for lets say through the decades where your plan is getting implemented.
Now, to stop LoC threat, we would have to solve Kashmir issue.
Back to square 1.

There have been numerous attempts to improve the relationship—notably, the Shimla summit, the Agra summit and the Lahore summit. Since the early 1980s, relations between the two nations soured particularly after the Siachen conflict, the intensification of Kashmir insurgency in 1989, Indian and Pakistani nuclear tests in 1998 and the 1999 Kargil war. Certain confidence-building measures — such as the 2003 ceasefire agreement and the Delhi–Lahore Bus service – were successful in deescalating tensions. However, these efforts have been impeded by periodic terrorist attacks. The 2001 Indian Parliament attack almost brought the two nations to the brink of a nuclear war. The 2007 Samjhauta Express bombings, which killed 68 civilians (most of whom were Pakistani), was also a crucial point in relations. Additionally, the 2008 Mumbai attacks carried out by Pakistani militants[4] resulted in a severe blow to the ongoing India-Pakistan peace talks.
Meaning, Unless Pakistan and stops its terrorists activities against India, all efforts will lead to nothing. Terrorism stems from ideological differences. Well :)

All your plans will work till you finish off your last cup of utopia.
 
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Dark Sorrow

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First, how do you convince the retard? Won't you have to go through the real people in in-charge for anything significant? Why would they allow that, since even they would not be foolish enough not to see that any significant trade will make them dependent on India?
We will have to work on this issue. We will have to take little loss, show them a rosy picture, let them feel they are winning and convince them they are missing the bus. Sometime we will have to bride or use other dirty tricks. This will be the biggest step. No trade should be started before accomplishing this step.
Next, how would you account for the trade deficit? Would you be willing to delay payments, offer soft loans etc, knowing where that money is likely to go?
No where in world is there international business with delay in payments except for when you have good reputation and some form of guarantee. For Pakistan it will be pay fist then take delivery. We don't believe in giving any kind of loan or money to Pakistan Taking in account the level industrialization and technical know-how their will always be trade deficit for Pakistan.
Lets assume in a few years, you achieve all this and Paki trader is dependant on India, why do you believe they'd be any position to influence their government? Are you under the impression that there is anything democratic about that state and its not all a front for the military-ISI nexus?
Big traders namely big importers or exports tend to have their own lobbies.
Its not just question of influence. A lot of things can be done ranging from bribing to assassination to providing information to our intelligence.
Military-ISI is not invincible. Bullets don't bounce of their skin. Finally its the terrorist at ground level has to be intercepted. Knowing when and where he will be at a particular place also helps us a lot.
Consider a hypothetical example of local contractor or warlord in Pakistan from whose location Iran-Pakistan-India gas pipeline goes through. If these local contractor or warlord economically (not necessary it be money) benefit from this pipeline in any way (say security contract for that sector), then local contractor or warlord will make sure no one harms the pipeline in that sector. Then he will care about Military-ISI nexus.
Besides, don't you think all this has been thought out by our peace-loving leaders and tried in the past on a smaller scale that always got derailed by a war or terror attack?
Till second tenure Singh Government a serious thought was not given to this. The theory is not perfect and still has several flaws which will have to be rectified.
Even this theory has a chance to backfire.
 

Mad Indian

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We must not blindly trade.
This is not a single step or immediate effect process that you start trading and all your problems will be solved.
We first have make the retard (as correctly dubbed by Sorcerer) understand that trade will benefit them.
Then we must use our developed sectors like Automobile, Pharmaceutical and medical equipments, Energy, Software, Machinery, Materials, Electronics, etc. to dump our goods in their country.
At the same time we should be ready to import raw materials, rose petals, agricultural products and goods like cement.
This will slowly make their economy dependent on us. For Pakistan trading with India is most economical.
Around this time we should also launch an culture attack on people benefiting form our trade.
We should make the local Pakistani trader/businessman/contractor/etc. economically dependent on us to such extent that any anti-Indian activity by such retard (Army, ISI, or some non-state actor) will cause economical loss to this local Pakistani trader/businessman/contractor/etc. Then the local Pakistani trader/businessman/contractor/etc. will take necessary action against the retard and neutralize the threat then and their.
This is not a single step or immediate effect process. It will takes decades to implement and even more time to see results but we will have to start somewhere. Direct confrontation is not taking us anywhere.
Its high time to change our approach with regards to dealing with Pakistan.
Pakistan lost half its country in a war with India in 1971 and even that didnt stop it from launching Kargil in 1999

I dont know which demented dream world you live in to believe that trade with Pakis will make them our best pals due to the economic loss
 

Mad Indian

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@ Sane posters. what are you people debating about with a WKK?:rolleyes:
 

Mad Indian

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We have fought for 50 years and still have no results. Its time to change our strategy.
What nonsense. For the past 67 years pakistan is slowly losing its war of attrition with us. It lost half its population in 1971 aand one third its land. It is nearly bankrupt and is about to implode on its own due to its war of attrition with us.

And just when they are about to blow themselves up due to economic shithole they are in, you are suggesting to economically empower them? Tell me, whose side are you on?
 

Mad Indian

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People think that imports are bad for the country but nothing can be farther from the truth

Here, if you people are really interested in knowing something instead of talking BS:


Infact, our negative balance in trade wrt China is not a problem on economy, but rather a security risk since it makes us depend on them more than wise versa.
 
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