David Goldman Spengler: How civilizationas die. Islamic Civilization is Dying

Discussion in 'West Asia & Africa' started by Virendra, Jan 28, 2012.

  1. Virendra

    Virendra Moderator Moderator

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    More than an hour long audio clip. Initially a speech by Goldman and then a Q & A session follows.
    He covers current and potential demographic patterns of Iran, Turkey, Kurds, Egypt.
    He also shares his view in general of issues concerning middle east, Af-Pak and India-China in that context, oil, water etc.

    Regards,
    Virendra
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
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  3. Virendra

    Virendra Moderator Moderator

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    I believe one of the reasons west is marshalling the cause of democracy in MENA is that they want to soften & gradually neutralize the challenge they face there.
    Islamic demographics in MENA and Europe, Radicalization of the population and isolated Black box instutions running those countries are all bad indicators for them. They want demographics to indicate stabilization (including birth rates), radicalization to give way to modern education (again linked to birth rates), and liberal, transparent institutions instead of medieval style clergy sprawling ghettos.
    But there are short term things like Oil etc which override this approach. Example - How the west reacted to protests in Bahrain and Saudi Arabia, compared to other countries.

    Regards,
    Virendra
     
  4. trackwhack

    trackwhack Tihar Jail Banned

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    That was a very daft discussion, lacking of depth. The author was essentially justifying bombing Iran. Islam is going to be the dominant religion in Europe within 3 decades. Caucasians are going to start a constant mass migration into North America due to increased discomfort and suffocation caused by Muslims. The author has absolutely failed to address the extremely high birth rates of European Muslims compared to the extremely low birth rates of European Christians. Islam is not gonna die, no way. Instead we are going to have many strains of Islam - ranging from Moderate peaceloving Muslims to psychopaths sitting on Nukes.
     
  5. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Islam is growing and not dying.

    The name is Goldman.

    That name sounds Jewish!
     
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  6. HeinzGud

    HeinzGud Senior Member Senior Member

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    no sir it's most certainly not, Islam can't fight with the modern science, it will mostly die within this century and Christianity will follow suite... with in couple of centuries!
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2012
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  7. parijataka

    parijataka Senior Member Senior Member

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    From what I heard from this video clip of Q & A session by David Goldman Spengler, it seems like wishful thinking on the part of a (Jewish) American citizen. A cursory look at at the UN figures on birth rates by country reveals not a single Western country (US/UK/Aus/NZ/European countries/Russia/Canada) or China or Japan above the average birth rate. Other than US and Israel, the rest of these countries are below replacement level. Among those countries above the average birth rate are Afircan countries starting with Niger at 7.19(!) along with ME countries like Iraq(4.26), Saudi Arabia (3.35), Oman(3.00), Egypt(2.89) and all the South Asian countries with Pakistan(3.52), Bangladesh(2.85), India(2.81), Nepal(3.28). Sri Lanka at 1.88 is the only South Asian country to have a low birth rate. In short - above average birth rates belonged to African countries, Middle East and South Asia and Israel (2.75). USA is below the average but at 2.05 is not badly off compared to Western and Eastern Europe.

    So what I see is, taking a cursory look at birth rates, that it is the Western world rather than the Muslim world that seems to be shrinking in gross numbers. With respect to USA, birth rate is in the order of Hispanics, blacks, Asian and Pacific Islanders, whites and last the native Americans. Author says that in Turkey the birth rate of Turkish people is less compared to Kurds will eventually outnumber Turks in the youth population in the next few decades. Similarly isn't USA heading towards being a Hispanic society ? Across Europe, the Muslim birth rate is above that of the native European population. It is Western civilisation that is in decline and not any other, unless there is some information that author provides in the book to support his arguments. Change is happening but not in the way this author suggests.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2012
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  8. Nagraj

    Nagraj Regular Member

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    inshaallh all religions and "-isms" will die. and we will all be only humans.
    your point???
     
  9. Nagraj

    Nagraj Regular Member

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    as of now every major religion is growing and i have heard claims and counter claims how islam or christinity is growing currently.
     
  10. Nagraj

    Nagraj Regular Member

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    OFF Topic:-
    Sry for posting this here. but i am unable to access any other part of dfi.
    when ever i click on forum button i am being redirected to http://defenceforumindia.com/cgi-sys/defaultwebpage.cgi .
    and access is denied .
    and i am facinfg this for past few days . could not even open dfi and thought that dfi was down . i have tried everything from clearing cache to changing browsers not of any avail.
     
  11. Godless-Kafir

    Godless-Kafir DFI Buddha Senior Member

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    Have you meet Zakir Naik the scientific muslim who twists words to make Islam sound scientific, he even proves Big bang is mentioned in Quran.
     
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  12. parijataka

    parijataka Senior Member Senior Member

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    Muslim Europe: the demographic time bomb

    Muslim Europe: the demographic time bomb transforming our continent
    The EU is facing an era of vast social change, reports Adrian Michaels, and few politicians are taking notice

    By Adrian Michaels
    11:11AM BST 08 Aug 2009

    Britain and the rest of the European Union are ignoring a demographic time bomb: a recent rush into the EU by migrants, including millions of Muslims, will change the continent beyond recognition over the next two decades, and almost no policy-makers are talking about it.

    The numbers are startling. Only 3.2 per cent of Spain's population was foreign-born in 1998. In 2007 it was 13.4 per cent. Europe's Muslim population has more than doubled in the past 30 years and will have doubled again by 2015. In Brussels, the top seven baby boys' names recently were Mohamed, Adam, Rayan, Ayoub, Mehdi, Amine and Hamza.

    Europe's low white birth rate, coupled with faster multiplying migrants, will change fundamentally what we take to mean by European culture and society. The altered population mix has far-reaching implications for education, housing, welfare, labour, the arts and everything in between. It could have a critical impact on foreign policy: a study was submitted to the US Air Force on how America's relationship with Europe might evolve. Yet EU officials admit that these issues are not receiving the attention they deserve.

    Jerome Vignon, the director for employment and social affairs at the European Commission, said that the focus of those running the EU had been on asylum seekers and the control of migration rather than the integration of those already in the bloc. "It has certainly been underestimated - there is a general rhetoric that social integration of migrants should be given as much importance as monitoring the inflow of migrants." But, he said, the rhetoric had rarely led to policy.

    The countries of the EU have long histories of welcoming migrants, but in recent years two significant trends have emerged. Migrants have come increasingly from outside developed economies, and they have come in accelerating numbers.

    The growing Muslim population is of particular interest. This is not because Muslims are the only immigrants coming into the EU in large numbers; there are plenty of entrants from all points of the compass. But Muslims represent a particular set of issues beyond the fact that atrocities have been committed in the West in the name of Islam.

    America's Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, part of the non-partisan Pew Research Center, said in a report: "These [EU] countries possess deep historical, cultural, religious and linguistic traditions. Injecting hundreds of thousands, and in some cases millions, of people who look, speak and act differently into these settings often makes for a difficult social fit."

    How dramatic are the population changes? Everyone is aware that certain neighbourhoods of certain cities in Europe are becoming more Muslim, and that the change is gathering pace. But raw details are hard to come by as the data is sensitive: many countries in the EU do not collect population statistics by religion.

    EU numbers on general immigration tell a story on their own. In the latter years of the 20th century, the 27 countries of the EU attracted half a million more people a year than left. "Since 2002, however," the latest EU report says, "net migration into the EU has roughly tripled to between 1.6 million and two million people per year."

    The increased pace has made a nonsense of previous forecasts. In 2004 the EU thought its population would decline by 16 million by 2050. Now it thinks it will increase by 10 million by 2060. Britain is expected to become the most populous EU country by 2060, with 77 million inhabitants. Right now it has 20 million fewer people than Germany. Italy's population was expected to fall precipitously; now it is predicted to stay flat.

    The study for the US Air Force by Leon Perkowski in 2006 found that there were at least 15 million Muslims in the EU, and possibly as many as 23 million. They are not uniformly distributed, of course. According to the US's Migration Policy Institute, residents of Muslim faith will account for more than 20 per cent of the EU population by 2050 but already do so in a number of cities. Whites will be in a minority in Birmingham by 2026, says Christopher Caldwell, an American journalist, and even sooner in Leicester. Another forecast holds that Muslims could outnumber non-Muslims in France and perhaps in all of western Europe by mid-century. Austria was 90 per cent Catholic in the 20th century but Islam could be the majority religion among Austrians aged under 15 by 2050, says Mr Caldwell.

    Projected growth rates are a disputed area. Birth rates can be difficult to predict and migrant numbers can ebb and flow. But Karoly Lorant, a Hungarian economist who wrote a paper for the European Parliament, calculates that Muslims already make up 25 per cent of the population in Marseilles and Rotterdam, 20 per cent in Malmo, 15 per cent in Brussels and Birmingham and 10 per cent in London, Paris and Copenhagen.

    Recent polls have tended to show that the feared radicalisation of Europe's Muslims has not occurred. That gives hope that the newcomers will integrate successfully. Nonetheless, second and third generations of Muslims show signs of being harder to integrate than their parents. Policy Exchange, a British study group, found that more than 70 per cent of Muslims over 55 felt that they had as much in common with non-Muslims as Muslims. But this fell to 62 per cent of 16-24 year-olds.

    The population changes are stirring unease on the ground. Europeans often tell pollsters that they have had enough immigration, but politicians largely avoid debate.

    France banned the wearing of the hijab veil in schools and stopped the wearing of large crosses and the yarmulke too, so making it harder to argue that the law was aimed solely at Muslims. Britain has strengthened its laws on religious hatred. But these are generally isolated pieces of legislation.

    Into the void has stepped a resurgent group of extreme-Right political parties, among them the British National Party, which gained two seats at recent elections to the European Parliament. Geert Wilders, the Dutch politician who speaks against Islam and was banned this year from entering Britain, has led opinion polls in Holland.

    The Pew Forum identified the mainstream silence in 2005: "The fact that [extreme parties] have risen to prominence at all speaks poorly about the state and quality of the immigration debate. [Scholars] have argued that European elites have yet to fully grapple with the broader issues of race and identity surrounding Muslims and other groups for fear of being seen as politically incorrect."

    The starting point should be greater discussion of integration. Does it matter at all? Yes, claims Mr Vignon at the European Commission. Without it, polarisation and ghettoes can result. "It's bad because it creates antagonism. It antagonises poor people against other poor people: people with low educational attainment feel threatened," he says.

    The EU says employment rates for non-EU nationals are lower than for nationals, which holds back economic advancement and integration. One important reason for this is a lack of language skills. The Migration Policy Institute says that, in 2007, 28 per cent of children born in England and Wales had at least one foreign-born parent. That rose to 54 per cent in London. Overall in 2008, 14.4 per cent of children in primary schools had a language other than English as their first language.

    Muslims, who are a hugely diverse group, have so far shown little inclination to organise politically on lines of race or religion. But that does not mean their voices are being ignored. Germany started to reform its voting laws 10 years ago, granting certain franchise rights to the large Turkish population. It would be odd if that did not alter the country's stance on Turkey's application to join the EU. Mr Perkowski's study says: "Faced with rapidly growing, disenfranchised and increasingly politically empowered Muslim populations within the borders of some of its oldest and strongest allies, the US could be faced with ever stronger challenges to its Middle East foreign policies."

    Demography will force politicians to confront these issues sooner rather than later. Recently, some have started to nudge the debate along. Angel Gurría, the OECD secretary-general, said in June: "Migration is not a tap that can be turned on and off at will. We need fair and effective migration and integration policies; policies that work and adjust to both good economic times and bad ones."
     
  13. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Zakir Naik can very convincing prove night is actually day.

    I was an avid follower of his discourses on QTV.

    He should have joined Indian politics because he is more convincing than the Imam Bukhari or the Muslim Personal Board or the Darool!

    One more in the circus called Indian politics would have been such fun!
     
  14. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    I have reported your post to Lurker Baba to advice you as to what is solution.

    If your PM is working, then send a PM to him!
     
  15. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    I couldn't listen to that droning... simple facts are:

    1) Muslim birth rate decline
    2) Christian conversions rising
    3) Depletion of Arab oil
    4) Inevitable decline of Islam
     
  16. Godless-Kafir

    Godless-Kafir DFI Buddha Senior Member

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    I know, i have heard a lot of his speeches to, it down right stupid but people dont have the courage to take him on in this country.


    Look at this...
     
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  17. Nagraj

    Nagraj Regular Member

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    ok i dunno how true this claim is don't ask me for credible links or something . but i do remember reading somewhere that again" i read it somewhere" i dunno how true it is that Einstein believed if one religion that could survive the onslaught of science it was Buddhism. he believed that religion of future has to be free from "i forgot the term" and Buddhism was one such religion.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2012
  18. Nagraj

    Nagraj Regular Member

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    Guys like Zakir Naik have are truly harmful to Muslims. they are not of any real benefit to them.
     
  19. Blackwater

    Blackwater Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    True its fastest growing religion but also the most socially backward.. in Holland we got people from turkey and Morocco as Muslims in large numbers. both have different mosque despite being Muslims.

    2) One of my morocan neighbor has 4 kids and one more coming,i asked him" dont u believe in family planing"? He said "our imam in mosque tells us to produce more children so that we have more population in the world". I was shocked:shocked::shocked::shocked:

    90% of Morocans have 3 or more children living in council or social 2 bedroom houses ....

    90% of young Muslims kids have police records in Holland.

    Most no. of school dropouts are people from Muslims community in Holland.

    Why they produce 3 or more children if they can't groom them..

    same situation is with pakis in UK.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2012
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  20. HeinzGud

    HeinzGud Senior Member Senior Member

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    Buddhism is surely gonna die one day.. cuz it's a religion... but Buddha's philosophy would remain.. I think that's what Einstein wanted to say!

    sorry Nagraj if I heart your feelings but what would these religions say if we found the multiple universe theory is correct or we found an alien planet with intelligent beings? I know the religious people would bend the and corrupt the old scriptures to suite the situation but for how long and for fool whom?
     
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  21. Nagraj

    Nagraj Regular Member

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    dude i am free of all these "-isms" .these "-isms" in the hands of morons has done more harm then any real good.
    As for freedom from "-isms" i remain doubful because we as a race are not as smart as we would like to think .
    That's a fact dude.
     

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