Dassult Rafale vs Eurofighter Typhoon Comparison Thread

[p2prada]

1). Rafale is superior in air-to-ground roles (n i guess majority will agree) and i envision it to replace Mig-27 in 2017 and even Jaguars beyond 2020 now we r getting it in heavy numbers 180+ to be precise......( Those who r saying FGFA will replace Jags well guys its completely bs)

Jaguars are to be replaced with AMCA. There are a few older Mig-21 squadrons for ground attack, these may be replaced by Rafales and MKIs.

FGFA may replace Mig-29s, maybe even Mirage-2000s.

2). Yes Rafales Air-to-Air configuration looks neat and hopefully will nicely compliment the Su-30s in Air Superiority scenarios........( with european n Russian air-to-air missile arsenals.....)

We will have the largest air to air missile diversity in the world, for BVR.

R-77 (will be phased out), R-27 IR, R-27RF (new orders along with MICA), MICA IR, MICA RF, RVV-MD (40Km range) RVV-SD, RVV-BD (or K-100 or both), Astra Mk1, Astra Mk2, Derby, and Meteor. That's 12 different missile types in operation between today and 2020, from what is known as of today. Aim-120 is a possibility on Jaguars.

No idea of knowing how many missiles are in development for PAKFA/FGFA, but that will further add to the arsenal. Let's just say 3 or 4 types for this as well. Both IR and RF or a combination of both.

The Israeli Stunner is also another possible inclusion for our arsenal. It is an air to air version of the David's Sling. David's Sling has been offered to India as of a few years ago.

12 missiles guaranteed, followed by 3 or 4 from FGFA program and a possible inclusion of Aim-120 and Stunner. We can add a future development of Astra to the mix as well. That's at least 19 frigging missile types. Right from a 40 Km to maybe 400 Km.

 

[Armand2REP]

You make 12 missile types sound like it is something to be proud of. Most AFs have two. 12 is a logistical nightmare.

 

[opesys]

You make 12 missile types sound like it is something to be proud of. Most AFs have two. 12 is a logistical nightmare.

....yeah but Pakistanis love variety

 

[p2prada]

You make 12 missile types sound like it is something to be proud of. Most AFs have two. 12 is a logistical nightmare.

Maybe so. But considering IAF operates so many different aircraft types, different missiles doesn't even compute.

IAF will still have 7-8 fighter types in operation in 2025. MKI, Jaguar, Mig-29, Mirage-2000, Rafale, LCA, FGFA and AMCA, apart from at least 3 different trainers. And you are worrying about 12 missile types?

What may be a nightmare to others has been routine for us since the last 60 years.

Imagine the kind of self defense suites the enemy aircraft must carry in order to engage 12-19 different missile types at once, almost all of them made by entirely different companies with unique seeker heads.

 

[Defcon 1]

Jaguars are to be replaced with AMCA. There are a few older Mig-21 squadrons for ground attack, these may be replaced by Rafales and MKIs.

FGFA may replace Mig-29s, maybe even Mirage-2000s.



We will have the largest air to air missile diversity in the world, for BVR.

R-77 (will be phased out), R-27 IR, R-27RF (new orders along with MICA), MICA IR, MICA RF, RVV-MD (40Km range) RVV-SD, RVV-BD (or K-100 or both), Astra Mk1, Astra Mk2, Derby, and Meteor. That's 12 different missile types in operation between today and 2020, from what is known as of today. Aim-120 is a possibility on Jaguars.

No idea of knowing how many missiles are in development for PAKFA/FGFA, but that will further add to the arsenal. Let's just say 3 or 4 types for this as well. Both IR and RF or a combination of both.

The Israeli Stunner is also another possible inclusion for our arsenal. It is an air to air version of the David's Sling. David's Sling has been offered to India as of a few years ago.

12 missiles guaranteed, followed by 3 or 4 from FGFA program and a possible inclusion of Aim-120 and Stunner. We can add a future development of Astra to the mix as well. That's at least 19 frigging missile types. Right from a 40 Km to maybe 400 Km.

I have a question. Aren't escort aircraft with Jaguar more effective than arming Jaguar with BVR capability? I mean, in spite of carrying BVR missiles, Jaguar will have no WVR capability, will have a less capable radar for A2A, and will be unable to break a BVR lock because of a low thrust engine. I never fully understood why A2A capability was added to the Jaguar in the first place.

You make 12 missile types sound like it is something to be proud of. Most AFs have two. 12 is a logistical nightmare.

Russia has a doctrine of using multiple BVRs so that it is difficult for opponents to devise countermeasures.

 

[p2prada]

I have a question. Aren't escort aircraft with Jaguar more effective than arming Jaguar with BVR capability? I mean, in spite of carrying BVR missiles, Jaguar will have no WVR capability, will have a less capable radar for A2A, and will be unable to break a BVR lock because of a low thrust engine. I never fully understood why A2A capability was added to the Jaguar in the first place.

Jaguar has been installed with a munitions control unit made by Raytheon. Jaguar already carries WVR missiles over the wings. The older Magic II missiles are to be replace with the Aim-9M.

Raytheon Company : Investor Relations : News Release

It is only meant for self defence, not actual air to air combat. Also, I said Aim-120 is a possibility since most Jaguars won't have radars.

 

[Defcon 1]

Jaguar has been installed with a munitions control unit made by Raytheon. Jaguar already carries WVR missiles over the wings. The older Magic II missiles are to be replace with the Aim-9M.

Raytheon Company : Investor Relations : News Release

It is only meant for self defence, not actual air to air combat. Also, I said Aim-120 is a possibility since most Jaguars won't have radars.

Why do you need Jaguar to perform the self defence task itself? Why can't we send escort aircraft along. Even, with WVR missiles, Jaguar should be less than useless in a dogfight.

 

[Armand2REP]

Maybe so. But considering IAF operates so many different aircraft types, different missiles doesn't even compute.

IAF will still have 7-8 fighter types in operation in 2025. MKI, Jaguar, Mig-29, Mirage-2000, Rafale, LCA, FGFA and AMCA, apart from at least 3 different trainers. And you are worrying about 12 missile types?

What may be a nightmare to others has been routine for us since the last 60 years.

Imagine the kind of self defense suites the enemy aircraft must carry in order to engage 12-19 different missile types at once, almost all of them made by entirely different companies with unique seeker heads.

Remember who you will be fighting... the only aircraft you might face with modern ECM are Paki F-16s. Chinese ECM is a joke. You don't want a couple dozen different types when half of them are obsolete. Get a few with advanced modes and they can defeat anything they face. It is their ability to defeat any spoof that makes them top of the line.

 

[p2prada]

Why do you need Jaguar to perform the self defence task itself? Why can't we send escort aircraft along. Even, with WVR missiles, Jaguar should be less than useless in a dogfight.

You never know when it is needed. We need both escorts as well as self defense capability on strikers. Jaguars always came with WVR missiles.

Today's mantra is much more simple. While larger aircraft like MKIs provide air cover the strike aircraft like Rafales will be able to escort themselves while conducting strike missions. That's why Rafales carry at least 4 MICAs during strike missions. The concept today deals with switching roles during missions in the same flight. So, one Rafale will end up protecting the other if the situation calls for it.

However until 2030 we still need Jaguars with limited self defence capability while being escorted by Bisons or LCAs. That's because Jaguars cannot switch roles. But when targeted, the enemy knows that the Jaguar has the teeth to fight back until an escort distracts the enemy.

Radars are not necessary because missiles like R-77 and Aim-120 can target WVR using only the missile's seeker.

Remember who you will be fighting... the only aircraft you might face with modern ECM are Paki F-16s. Chinese ECM is a joke. You don't want a couple dozen different types when half of them are obsolete. Get a few with advanced modes and they can defeat anything they face. It is their ability to defeat any spoof that makes them top of the line.

Regardless of your obtuse prejudice about Chinese technology, we know very well who we may end up fighting. It is not necessarily China or Pakistan. We may even fight the US if the situation calls for it. Either over Pakistan, or Afghanistan or Iran or Myanmar. We never know. We already came so close, once before.

For the number of platforms we are inducting, it is obvious we are going to need so many missile types. MKI and Mig-29 will have Russian missiles. FGFA will have its own set meant for internal bays. We will have so many types only because of the Russians. At least 6 types for MKI and maybe 4 types for FGFA.

French aircraft like Mirage-2000 and Rafale will have French missiles (at least 3 types) while LCA will have Israeli missiles.

Only Astra will be common among some of them and even this includes two types of missiles, let alone the addition of an IR seeker in the future.

WVR segment may also see quite a few missiles in our inventory.

 

[Armand2REP]

Radars are not necessary because missiles like R-77 and Aim-120 can target WVR using only the missile's seeker.

That defeats the purpose of having BVRAAM and a total waste.

Regardless of your obtuse prejudice about Chinese technology, we know very well who we may end up fighting. It is not necessarily China or Pakistan. We may even fight the US if the situation calls for it. Either over Pakistan, or Afghanistan or Iran or Myanmar. We never know. We already came so close, once before.

Regardless of your blind Russian patronage, we know very well China and Pakistan are the only enemies with an air force India will fight.

For the number of platforms we are inducting, it is obvious we are going to need so many missile types. MKI and Mig-29 will have Russian missiles. FGFA will have its own set meant for internal bays. We will have so many types only because of the Russians. At least 6 types for MKI and maybe 4 types for FGFA.

Russians say their fighters have MIL-STD-1553 databus so there is no reason better French missiles couldn't be integrated onto their platforms.

Only Astra will be common among some of them and even this includes two types of missiles, let alone the addition of an IR seeker in the future.

Astra should replace many Russian and Israeli types.

WVR segment may also see quite a few missiles in our inventory.

Even forces as diverse as the US only use one... Sidewinder.

 

[p2prada]

That defeats the purpose of having BVRAAM and a total waste.

Right! And you know?

Regardless of your blind Russian patronage, we know very well China and Pakistan are the only enemies with an air force India will fight.

Now it seems you are deciding who we will fight.

The closest air force we came to fighting, apart from Pakistan, was the USN in 1971.

Russians say their fighters have MIL-STD-1553 databus so there is no reason better French missiles couldn't be integrated onto their platforms.

Sorry, but we don't need those so called "better" missiles on our Russian fighters.

We don't even know half of what's cooking for PAKFA. They are already in the hypersonic realm.

Astra should replace many Russian and Israeli types.

Depends, Derby can be replaced, but RVV-SD may not. Different if we import Stunner, Astra will not be able to replace it. We are even buying R-27s today.

Even forces as diverse as the US only use one... Sidewinder.

So?

 

[halloweene]

While i will post some features of EFT that i consider had made EFT superior to Rafale

I might be wrong.if proved wrong

*Better Radar with More T/R modules which also means more range (peak power also matter?but i heard that EFR radar range is already more)

Power peak also matters yes. It is the most crucial point. Number ot T/R modulesdo matter for both emission (power peak and reception). Advantage to Typhoon on that point (stated 1250 T/R modules or so vs 1000 for RBE2AESA (and dont troll with that dummy photo module counts plz, exact number os classified)). Did you think about adding Spectra 3 AESA antennas/jammers? (its functions will be taken in account by Captor-E on Typhoon).

Now, think about future. GaN modules are to be integrated in Spectra in 2018, allowing more power/module. Next they will be integrated to RBE2, and side antennas will be added for wider radar coverage. Recently Thales RBE2 chief engineer stated in Air & Cosmos that ultimately, systems would be fused. There is NO GaN development scheduled for EFA, although the Bristish comapny QinetiQ should be able to produce them.

Would you judge the quality of a trditional radar to its antenna size? You'd be right, but only partially. There is a lot more in a radar then sheer power : agility, signal treatments, calculators, cooling (as important as T/R modules number for peak power), modes intelacability (stand me corrected if english misuse) etc. Generally speaking, Captor E is said to have better and slightly wider range then RBE2 AESA in AtoA. Thats all.

Present Captor M is a powerful radar (very long range), but MUCH less agile then RBE2 PESA, and its air to ground modes is rudimentary.


*Better engines with higher thrust

Better is disputable. More powerful, certainly. Also larger and heavier (100 kgs), similar specific consumptions (well with GCP pack, M88 should be around 5% lower now, 21 vs 23 g/kN.s). Similar lifspan (4000 TAC), Both with modular architecture and very much higher IR signature (due to extra cooling air channel for M88).

*Better twr . In which configuration?
Lets talk ok? Say with 2000 kgs of fuel, 2 EM BVR missiles and 4 IR BVR (hmm sorry, no, EFT do not have BVR IR misiles) :

Rafale C : 9060 + 2000 + 6*112 kg = 11730 kg T/W ratio (assuming DaN = kg) 0.85(dry) to 1.28 (wet)
EFT : 11000 + 2000 + 2*152 + 4* 85 = 13664 kg T/W ratio 0.88 (dry) to 1.31

What a big deal! (ok with heavy loadings the difference will be more important)

9.5T thrust prototype (M88 X) was bench tested (i assume this is an improbable dev as it would demand larger air intakes). But more interestingly, recently Snecma internal magazine (snecmag) stated : "nos moteurs. Mais également sur tous nos travaux de Recherche & Technologie. Par exemple, nous travaillons sur un Programme d'Acquisition Technologique (PAT) appelé THEO, lancé par la DGA en 2003. Celui-ci vise à concevoir de nouvelles pièces permettant d'augmenter l'efficience des turbines à haute pression. Nous pourrons ainsi augmenter la poussée, ce qui est une évolution naturelle pour un moteur d'avion de combat, et nous travaillons à rendre cette augmentation de poussée compatible avec les gains du Pack CGP à horizon 2015."

Google translation : But also on all our work Research & Technology. For example, we are working on a program Acquisition Technology (PAT) called THEO launched by the DGA in 2003. It aims at developing new pieces to increase the efficiency of high pressure turbines. We can thus increase thrust, which is a natural evolution for an engine combat aircraft, and we are working to make this compatible with increased thrust gains Pack CGP 2015.


*Much better avionics(italian Selex) Complete absolute BS, do not even deserve any answer.
*
slightly higher speed(wiki?) : True in theory. Max speed mach 2 vs 1.8 plz note in RAF max operational speed is mach 1.8 and that rafale prototypes reached mach 2

You forgot to mention heigher operational ceiling which is an advantage to EFT

*Much better crash history despite being earlier in service and with more number in service(2? crash so far) right, but due to tech failure.


*The proposed AESA is only of its kind Explain "of its kind plz" not integrated yet btw, and downgraded till improvements included in UK Bright Adder program are funded
*
IRIS-T WVR So what? Explain (develop)

Btw you should have mentioned AIM 120 longer range then mica, but its lower terminal agility, aswell as MICA IR BVR capability missing EFT etc.

*Less Expensive Proven wrong by MMRCA

i might have missed some

TONS : Air to ground capabilities, self defence suites, Mission planification, other sensors then radar, Data integration and presentation, availability rates, radar modes, netcentric capabilities, planned evolutions etc. All in all what make a plane do the job. (and not all these points are advantageous to Rafale). I kindly advise you to have look to manufacturers sites (EFA, DAssault, Thales, snecma, Eurojet) and some websites (starstreak, Rafalenews etc.). You could get valuable infos from forumers like Kovy and Scorpion82 also.

Have a good day

 

[halloweene]

While i will post some features of EFT that i consider had made EFT superior to Rafale

I might be wrong.if proved wrong

*Better Radar with More T/R modules which also means more range(peak power also matter?but i heard that EFR radar range is already more)
*Better engines with higher thrust
*Better twr
*Better
*Much better avionics(italian Selex)
*slightly higher speed(wiki?)
*Much better crash history despite being earlier in service and with more number in service(2? crash so far)
*The proposed AESA is only of its kind
*IRIS-T WVR
*Less Expensive

i might have missed some

Indeed.and EFT avionics are not just from Selex..and EFT avionics include from thales as well


Don't know about Super MKI.but Rafale definately wont have a comparable.





If i recall i have heard that Rafale is more expensive and this was the reason the rafale production was about to be stopped..though after the indian order.it is unlikely now


all over the net EFT pictures with various A2g weapons are available

Rafale production has never been about to be stopped. please make my day about citing your sources, i know the whole story and i watched at the very interview forumers use to quote ).

A photo ? Good! Now can you list intgrated AtoG weapons on EFT? I can will take less then one line.

 

[Defcon 1]

Radars are not necessary because missiles like R-77 and Aim-120 can target WVR using only the missile's seeker.

If the missile can only be fired in WVR, why would anyone buy a BVR missile in the first place? They are more expensive and although light, they are heavier than WVR missiles. Any extra ounce of weight will directly affect endurance of the bomber.

 

[Drsomnath999]

While i will post some features of EFT that i consider had made EFT superior to Rafale

I might be wrong.if proved wrong

ok lets prove it

here we go

*Better Radar with More T/R modules which also means more range(peak power also matter?but i heard that EFR radar range is already more)

hmm

thats true EF typhoon's so called E captor AESA radar has more T/R modules but that not important for more detection range ,Infact the quality of T/R module (compostion ,realibilty ) is more important than it's number .Well the fact is U must have a powerful system core ( processor) to integrate all those data in a faster way
& in more accurate way .& that's the adavantage rafale has thanks to it's 5th gen system core .exactly like F22 & F35
RAFALE'S 5TH GEN SYSTEM CORE

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fi.../Defence/2000/Mirage_2000-9_special_issue.pdf

& today's BVR combat warfare it is much better to turn off your own RADAR even if it is aesa radar for stealth reason as today's AWACS ESM system are very powerful they can detect a plane's Radar EM radations at much further range than plane's own radar cross section could have gave.Nowadays all are relying on passive detection or link 16 capabilty through awacs .but the problem with AWACS is they can give Ghost signatures( false target ) & passive detection like IR detection cannot be so effective at such long ranges & u dont have such long range IR missiles to engage them.

Meanwhile rafale has Spectra system which can detect passive EM radiation from a enemy fighter & cue them with it's own MICA or meteor bvraam without turning on
it's Aesa radar for stealth reason.


& funny thing u have also heard EF typhoon's aesa radar range is more even if it is still in protypes stages & havent been inducted yet (rofl )

*Better engines with higher thrust

well yes thats true current typhoon's EJ200 has more thrust than M88 2 version but

M88 3 version or the ECO variant which going to be installed in rafale F3+ & f4 variant has same 90 Kn thrust on reheating (after burner) with that of Ej200

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/sponsors/sponsor_rafale/img/fox3_2.pdf.

& yes typhoon's also has plans for uprated engine but that too is pipedreams for now as it depends upon funds which is a real problem for typhoon consortium group at the moment now.




If it is really better engine then India would have chosen it for LCA not US engines

*Better twr

see as Rafale has M88 2 engine which thrust is low compare to EJ 200 of typhoon definitely it's T/W ratio is inferior to typhoon but it's T/w ratio would defintely increase with the induction of M 88 3 engine

Despite having inferior thrust engine in comparision to Typhoon it still has a remarkable turn rate compared to typhoon ,meanwhile typhoon has only adavnatge in climb rate & acceleration in vertical direction. thats was also proven in switzerland leaked evaluation report .

for more detail explanation refer this source
http://topolo.free.fr/Compare/Rafale vs Typhoon.pdf

*Better
*Much better avionics(italian Selex)

says who ??? you sweet dreams

infact the only thing that gives the rafale clear edge over the typhoon is it's avionics ,if it was not the case then why was pakistan airforce dying to
have french avionics for their Jf -17. LOLLLZ

Infact saudis are ordering french damocles pod for their own eurofighter


here is a coool video about french avionics in rafale enjoy!!!

*slightly higher speed(wiki?)

true !!

but it's marginal advantage & who knows with addition of a new engine M88 3 the values may be equal or better for rafale

*Much better crash history despite being earlier in service and with more number in service(2? crash so far)

what!!!

if that's the case then JF-17 is superior than F22 as it has much better crash history than F22 .(loollz)

*The proposed AESA is only of its kind

Yes it is only of it's kind as it's development time & operationization date in to the plane is greater than its development time of the plane itself :LOLLLZZ

God knows when it would be operationlized

*IRIS-T WVR

it lacks the range of MICA ir which is a very important advantage of MICA ir missiles

*Less Expensive

garbage!!!

infact it's lifecycle costs & maintance cost is cheaper compare to TYphoon and it was accepted by the indian officials themselves in MMRCA deal

i might have missed some

yes u have missed all the good points of Rafale over typhoon

& the most important is this

SPECTRA Electronic warfare suite

 

[p2prada]

If the missile can only be fired in WVR, why would anyone buy a BVR missile in the first place? They are more expensive and although light, they are heavier than WVR missiles. Any extra ounce of weight will directly affect endurance of the bomber.

BVR missiles when fired within seeker range have a very high probability of success. Other than the fact that the seeker is RF, the motor also has a lot more power and a lot more fuel to burn.

That's where the F-22 triumphs, with a near sure shot kill after having stealthily crept close to the enemy.

With aircraft like Jaguar, which fly at low altitudes, a BVR missile is quite a good weapon for it since BVR missile ranges are less than 20 Km.

BVR missiles have ranges that vary from 110-140Km at high altitudes to ~20 Km at sea level altitudes. Seeker engagement range of old missiles is around 18 Km, new missiles are speculated to be anywhere between 25 - 36 Km.

 

[Armand2REP]

The range of an RF seeker isn't going to exceed 18km. It just isn't that powerful.

 

[p2prada]

The range of an RF seeker isn't going to exceed 18km. It just isn't that powerful.

The seeker range of the R-37 is officially reported to be around 40 Km.

A seeker is a regular radar with just different few modes compared to an aircraft's radar.

Have you even seen a pic of a seeker? Go find one and compare it to a radar.

 

[halloweene]

About RF seekers (not for experts, but we are numerous here not to be)

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2005garm/wednesday/myers.pdf