Dassult Rafale vs Eurofighter Typhoon Comparison Thread

Discussion in 'Military Aviation' started by Defcon 1, Dec 25, 2012.

  1. Defcon 1

    Defcon 1 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Since I am seeing EFT vs Rafale comparison coming up in various threads in the past few days, I am creating a dedicated thread for this purpose so that everyone can leisurely discuss which is the best fighter from the European stable. Mods can move offtopic posts from others threads here to maintain sanity on other places.
     
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  3. Defcon 1

    Defcon 1 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Old PDF but might be useful for getting an idea of future course of development of EFT

    [scribd]121325403&access_key=key-3f2d0bau9656mpy2bf8&page=1[/scribd]
     
  4. farhan_9909

    farhan_9909 Tihar Jail Banned

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    While i will post some features of EFT that i consider had made EFT superior to Rafale

    I might be wrong.if proved wrong

    *Better Radar with More T/R modules which also means more range(peak power also matter?but i heard that EFR radar range is already more)
    *Better engines with higher thrust
    *Better twr
    *Better
    *Much better avionics(italian Selex)
    *slightly higher speed(wiki?)
    *Much better crash history despite being earlier in service and with more number in service(2? crash so far)
    *The proposed AESA is only of its kind
    *IRIS-T WVR
    *Less Expensive

    i might have missed some
     
  5. DivineHeretic

    DivineHeretic Senior Member Senior Member

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    These points earn primacy for air superiority fighter. What both of them claim they are, atleast to the IAF, is that they are multirole platforms. The primary role of an MMRCA is strike role with sufficient air combat capability. And in this, Rafale has consistently and sufficiently outperformed the EF in every aspect of this role.
    You can look up the comparison of EF and the Rafale in the evaluations by the Swiss AF, where they found that the Rafale outperformed the EF even in air combat patrols.

    The EF of today is no match for the Rafale in strike role, and by the Swiss reports, even in CAPs. The proposed upgrades in T3 upgrades will provide the first real AG capability to the EF, but that is only likely to happen if the member countries fund the development. Rafale has these capabilities right now, and with future upgrades scheduled in early 2020s, it is going to get better.

    http://idrw.org/?p=8316#more-8316
     
  6. farhan_9909

    farhan_9909 Tihar Jail Banned

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    I still don't undestand what holds the EFT from strike role?
    it is just a misconception

    I am not talking about Swiss AF evaluation

    but if i dig out 2009 Rafale trials in india.the indian official stated that it is not upto our requirements and has quality issues as well

    should i post that?
     
  7. Defcon 1

    Defcon 1 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Yes please
     
  8. farhan_9909

    farhan_9909 Tihar Jail Banned

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    This is the reason i have always stated that Rafale was never selected because of performance but was rather a political choice

    Because rafale or the rest of aircraft in MRCA were no match for F-16IN(better than block 60) and EFT

    F-16IN would have

    *Mature AESA
    *Much more twr
    *Single engine but thrust almost equal to twin engine combined thrust of rafale(145KN)
    *American avionics are 2nd to none
    *American BVR(expected AIM-120 D)..mica doesnt stand a chance against the most earliest variant of Aim 120 bvr
    *AIM 9x
    *slightly cheaper as well


    Rafale was the third good fighter in MMRCA
    1-EFT
    2-F-16IN
    3-Rafale
    4-F-18
    5-Mig 25
    6-Gripen


     
  9. farhan_9909

    farhan_9909 Tihar Jail Banned

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    Yes Sir..link and complete post in the other link
     
  10. DivineHeretic

    DivineHeretic Senior Member Senior Member

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    That was proved to be unfounded rumours spread by parties with vested interests. The Rafale was never eliminated, and though I suspect that it did underperform in high altitude trials, it performed the best overall in 600 odd parameters.

    And as for the F16IN, it came 3rd, behind the F18Sh and the EF. The reasons are all over the net, so you can search them if you want.

    And about the EF, it lacks even the litening pods, to target positions for AG munitions. The British had to improvise or jugaad to use the EFs in AG role in libya. The Tranch T3B upgrades will give ground attack ability to the EFs, but that upgrade still hasn't been signed yet. Also the EFs are as much as 25% more expensive as compared to Rafales.
     
  11. Apollyon

    Apollyon Führer Senior Member

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    UK will have F-35 for strike and EFT for Air-Superiority, same with Italy (F-35 will replace Tornado). Germany will have Tornado (Germany receives first ASSTA 3.0 Tornados from Cassidian - Airforce Technology) and EFT.
    So i don't think anyone of these countries would be interested in funding EF Ground Attack module.
     
  12. DivineHeretic

    DivineHeretic Senior Member Senior Member

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    Would make economic sense, especially when you will have a 5th gen aircraft designed primarily for strike role. Btw, I never stated that EF is not a great aircraft, but just that its weak spot oday is AG.

    Btw, history would be testimony to the fact that new gen aircrafts have usually been used as air superiority ACs by the respective AFs, so the EU will be making a departure from this. Intesresting, to say the least.
     
  13. average american

    average american Senior Member Senior Member

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    Moore's law is the observation that over the history of computing hardware, the number of transistors on integrated circuits doubles approximately every two years. The period often quoted as "18 months"

    When they started designing the F22 and F35 program some 15 years ago, the most important goal was to build planes that could with stand air space that that would be defended by incredible by standards 15 years ago of the increasing accuracy, lethality and range of air to air and ground to air missiles. Building such a plane is incredible complex in that it needs to be low observable in all circumstances,, heat, light, trail, sound, emittance, communications, and its so highly complicated that it takes and information requires the computer equivlant of 2 and some say 7 cray computers.

    Power of two Cray supercomputer in F-22 cockpit

    March 03, 1992|By John Markoff | John Markoff,New York Times News Service


    MOUNTAIN VIEW, Calif. -- A Silicon Valley company has hired the Russian scientist who created the supercomputers used by the Soviet space program and the military to design nuclear weapons.

    The contract is one of the first examples of a U.S. business tapping the wealth of scientific talent that until recently was dedicated to the former Soviet Union's vast military program.

    Notice this artical is date 1992, half of the top scientist in Russia now work for the USA
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2013
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  14. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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  15. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    False. You are comparing Selex with Thales??? Absurd.

    What's so special about it? If you are talking about the gimbal arrangement of the radar, then Gripen will also have it.

    More importantly, Super MKI will get it before. 200 degrees vision, or was it 240 degrees. One of the two.

    False. EF is more expensive than Rafale.

    EFT is not yet a multirole bird. It is getting it now, meaning what the Rafale was in 2008, EF will be in 2018.

    Nonsense.
     
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  16. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    All I can say is, ROFL.

    F-16 was rejected on the grounds that it cannot fly well.

    Pity that.

    Single engine = fail. We already have LCA.

    Americans supplied downgraded systems. The European radars were the best even though American radars were operation longer.

    Rafale is offered with Meteor, not MICA.

    Aim-120D is not yet cleared for export either. Meteor is.

    Lets start over with the rankings again shall we.

    1 - Rafale - Suisse reports alone should be enough followed by all other reports from all other air forces that placed Rafale on top in all the tenders to date. Korea, Singapore, Switzerland, Denmark. Rafale topped the charts everywhere. Rafale was the only aircraft that scored "Excellent" in every parameter in Korea. F-15E scored Excellent only in 2 parameters out of 5. It shouldn't be any different in India too. I suppose the same for Brazil and also why UAE does not want to let Rafale go either.

    2 - SH
    3 - EFT
    4 - F-16IN
    5 - Gripen
    6 - Mig-35

    5 and 6 were prototypes, else Gripen NG would be better than the F-16IN in pretty much every parameter.

    The reason why I put EF below the SH is because of the lack of full multirole capability on EF. After 2018, lets switch the two back. If we are only talking about air combat, EF has the better potential of all MRCA contenders. Comparatively SH is as good as Rafale when it came to avionics, but flight performance is lacking compared to the Eurocanards.
     
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  17. farhan_9909

    farhan_9909 Tihar Jail Banned

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  18. farhan_9909

    farhan_9909 Tihar Jail Banned

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  19. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Different reasons or you can say different calculation.

    Overall, regardless of other competitions, Rafale was offered to us at $5Million lesser compared to EF.

    Management of the Typhoon Project - National Audit Office

    It cannot yet fire missiles. Only LGBs and that too with help.

    Nice pic of a EF-2000, but can you tell me what is it that's missing?

    [​IMG]

    It's missing a LDP.

    LIBYA: RAF Typhoon hits fresh target, with help from Tornado

    This should clear most of your doubts.

    The AESA itself is expected to be operational well after 2015. So, we won't get a finished aircraft until 2018. No point when the Rafale is already operational with F3+. IAF's Rafales may even be F4 versions, if not the F3+. So, one step ahead as always.

    UAE will want to take the Rafale one step ahead and induct the most advanced Rafale version ever. At least that's what they were discussing before.
     
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  20. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    RBE-2AA is operational.
    http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...ce-takes-delivery-first-rafale-rbe2-aesa.html

    APG-80 is inferior to the RBE-2AA. APG-80 was an export radar, how good do you expect it to be.

    The right comparison would be RACR and SABR with RBE-2AA. But that was available for LCA, not for MRCA.

    The Americans messed up by not providing the best they had to offer then. The Europeans exceeded Indian expectations, the Americans did not.

    CFTs eroded F-16s other aerodynamic qualities. Rafale is to get CFTs as well.

    I don't understand what you mean.

    It is consistent with what other air forces have evaluated all around the world. Not just Swiss.

    We know very little to compare like this definitely. Need to wait and see how and what the aircraft are designed for.

    NG will exceed F-16IN by a decent margin.

    18 months after contract is signed. That's plenty of time and caters for delays. The version India wants may be in production for the ALA right now. If the need arises we may have them transfer ALA production aircraft to India instead. Plenty of space in the assembly lines to produce Rafales.

    UAE deal is nearly done too.

    Doesn't mean or matter much.

    Anyway, this is from Netherlands which the Dutch air force released.

    [​IMG]

    Notice the points for F-16 B60 vs Rafale.
     
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  21. Shirman

    Shirman Regular Member

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    Ok Yeah so this is my first Typhoon vs Rafale thread in any forum so hear it goes.....

    1). Rafale is superior in air-to-ground roles (n i guess majority will agree) and i envision it to replace Mig-27 in 2017 and even Jaguars beyond 2020 now we r getting it in heavy numbers 180+ to be precise......( Those who r saying FGFA will replace Jags well guys its completely :bs: )

    2). Yes Rafales Air-to-Air configuration looks neat and hopefully will nicely compliment the Su-30s in Air Superiority scenarios........( with european n Russian air-to-air missile arsenals.....)

    3). How will it fare against Chinese J-31s and J-20 or VLO / Semi-stealth Uavs is upto time to tell possibly beyond circa 2022 + but yes future Stealth uavs will take on Air-to Grounds roles with integrated Rafael Litening Pods or its types.... quite possibly all 4.5 gen fighters (From INDIAN MMRCA) table will have good chance beyond 2020 if some one comes up with the tech to counter Stealth / or at least weaponise it to threaten western tech....In such scenarios it will be easy pickings for even 4 gen with good connectivity n AESA radar against Stealthy cruise missiles and UCAVS.....
     

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