D-Day, Normandy

[Waffen SS]

If there is no British in my Village ...Yes I' not going into a train only Major Cities get Train links Like Nowadays Metro Train and Electric Train ..

British Building is Converted into a School in my Village ..If there is no British I want to go 10 miles for School .a private School is established in my Village is after 2000

.

Where I do live there was no railway, no school, no Hospital, no road. There was only Jungles and tribes. It is Indian government who created those. From 1900 to 1942, how many famines occurred in India? How many people died? And From 1947 to present how many famine occurred here? How many people died here? Of course we have problems, but fact is now-a-days we can stop injustice if we protest. We can oust Government if they failed. Did we do that in British rule? Many people went into a simple non-violence protest in Jalianwalabagh, they were butchered. Did British punish those?

What was literacy rate of India from 1857 to 1947? And compare that from 1947 to present.

Even Many Indian's also Accept this word

.

What to expect from Indians brainwashed by English Medium Language schools mostly ran by Christian Missionaries? ( It may sound offensive)

Superstition,that British claims to save us from it, during Medieval time all had superstitions. Forget Christian Witch hunt? Christian Catholic's war machine against poor Red Indians? I have no personal hatred or Grudge against Christians, but Missionaries always want to convert. It is not right.

None are civilized, completely, but dont became self-proclaimed Savior. It is against Morality unless it is not supported by your activity.

 

[SPIEZ]

You may not care a tuppence for WWI or WWII, but don't be the spokesperson for all Indians.

I hope you are aware that in WWII, the war dead of Indian soldiers as reported by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, was a total death of 87,032. Then there were the wounded.

Maybe you could learn a bit from this

Honouring the veteran

A veteran Indian army officer, Colonel P P Vyas had recently circulated an extract (pages 110 & 111) from the book 'Toward Resurgent India ' written by Lt. Gen.(Retd.) M. M. Lakhera, one time Lt. Gov. of Pondicherry and also of Andaman & Nicobar, and now the Governor of Mizoram (and my old teacher at the College of Combat for the Senior Command Course).

It made me happy to see how Indian old soldiers are still recognised in the United Kingdom. It also made me sad at the contrast in India, where the old soldier would have been elbowed out by an indifferent policeman on security duty to make way for the Deputy Prime Minister, who would whiz past with red lights blazing. I doubt whether any member of our cabinet would recognise a Param Vir Chakra, the Indian equivalent one of Victoria Cross, even if they see one.


Here is what Lt Gen Lakhera says: "I had gone to UK in 1995 as Deputy Leader of the Indian Delegation to take part in the 50th Anniversary celebrations of the victory in Europe during the Second World War. I along with four other Army officers, had just stepped out after attending the inaugural session and were waiting on the roadside for the traffic to ease so as to walk across the road to the vehicle park. Among those with me was Honorary Captain Umrao Singh,a Victorian Cross winner (unfortunately, I have received the sad news of his expiry just two days back). All of a sudden a car moving on the road came to a halt in front of us and a well dressed gentleman stepped out. He approached Umrao Singh and said, "Sir, may I have the privilege of shaking hand with the Victoria Cross?" He shook hands with him. Evidently he had spotted Umrao Singh's medal from his car and had stopped his car to pay his respect to a winner of the highest gallantry medal of his country.

Then he looked at me and said, "General, you are from Indian Army." When I replied in affirmative, he gave out his name, saying that he was Maichile Hailstine. I was absolutely astounded as the recognition dawned on me that he was the Deputy Prime Minister of UK . I was totally overawed by such courtesy shown by a dignitary of the second highest status in the British Government and humbly thanked him for having invited our delegation for the VE Day function. Again his reply was typical of his sagacity, "General, it is we the British, who should be grateful to your country and your Armed Forces, who had helped us win both the first and the second World wars. How can we be ever so ungrateful to forget your country's great contribution." Suddenly I became conscious that all the traffic behind his car had come to stand still. I hurried to thank him and politely requested him to move along to relieve the traffic hold-up. He stated, "Sir, how dare I drive off when Victoria Cross has to cross the road."

Realizing his genuine feeling I and my colleagues quickly crossed the road. Reaching the other side I looked back and saw that Mr. Hailstine was still standing waiting for the Victoria Cross to be safely across. Ladies & Gentlemen, that is the type of regards they have for their decorated soldiers. I have always aspired that similar respect could be shown at least to a Param Vir Chakra or Ashok Chakra winner by the leaders and prominent figures in our country."

With all due respect, Indian soldiers were fighting SOMEONE ELSE'S WAR.

 

[TrueSpirit]

All Armies the world over do that unless soldiers have a stake in the system...

Indian peasant makes a good soldier because he has nothing better to do except tilling the land the whole year and still dying of hunger...

If Indian Govt allows India soldiers to be recruited for the British or American Armies you will find Indians stuffed American forces.

Yes, but that tendency was much more marked in pre-independence India, due to lack of options.

Not anymore. We see unlimited opportunities today, rather than joining US , or Royal Army.

For the really desperate ones, those looking for easy way out to secure a Green card, joining foreign armed forces would be an option, but still, we do have choice.

A native of colonial India hardly had much.

And pray tell me in entire history of mankind which Army was not mercenary in nature.... ??

INA

 

[freakinghell]

You may not care a tuppence for WWI or WWII, but don't be the spokesperson for all Indians.

I hope you are aware that in WWII, the war dead of Indian soldiers as reported by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, was a total death of 87,032. Then there were the wounded.

"[/COLOR][/B]

Indians fighting for someone's else war can not be my hero. i respect them as i'd respect any other soldier from any other country but in this case they were fighting for british interests.. helping britain keep india enslaved......

we both are good Friends Nowadays ..Whenever I travel in Indian Trains I thank to the British..whenever I see my school Building I thank British

move to UK bruv, i'd pay for the ticket.. there you can be their slave, you can wash their toilets, or serve as maid or polish their boots as a day job. you can even ride their trains.. and thank them for agreeing to enslave you, again..

 

[TrueSpirit]

Don't be so full of yourself. Your post implies that the allies saved India and the rest of the world from Hitler. You are the myopic asshole. Thanks to Hitler Europe's colonial tyranny is dead. Only its been replaced by american thuggery, you being a classic example. Knowing the barrel or butt of a rifle? Common petty criminals know that. That's how special you are if you think having served in your armed forces somehow makes you first among equals.

Again, thank god for Hitler.

That's quite close. Though Hitler was the ultimate "Evil incarnate" on earth, spawned by Western insecurities & buoyed by their appeasement + greed, but for all his malevolence, his very existence turned out to be a blessing in disguise for all western colonies, including India. His megalomaniac actions broke the backbone of Western nations in being able to sustain themselves, forget distant colonies. Anyone who has the slightest inkling of history won't deny that.

Personally, I do not hold the "British Indian Army" in especially high regard. But, eventually, that very institution is the progenitor of today's IA & they are doing rather okay, ain't they?

Now, I am going to go all off-topic:

Ultimately, our views/positions are shaped by the side of the divide we are on. For e.g. on the receiver side, or the perpetrator side.

Indians were on receiving side for last 800 years, so it is natural for us to feel zero obligation & a lot of antipathy towards our erstwhile colonial masters. Old-timers in IA (especially those who joined in 40's-60's) might have reasons to feel some sort of connection to the British.

In my generation, it is mostly "indifference" & sometimes "competition" that defines our view of the British.

 

[TrueSpirit]

Double Post. Double Post. Double Post. Double Post Double Post Double Post Double Post

 

[TrueSpirit]

Yes, yes, everyone knows if it had not been for those damned Englishman, India would be paradise on earth, Not a developed country, but the developed country all other nations would look up to, the pinnacle of knowledge and welfare.
Oh, the evil white people, it's all their fault, and so one.....

On topic: I for one is mindful of d-day and honor the young men who gave their lives so I had the opportunity to grow up in freedom. Denmark was a few hours from being "liberated" by the Russians and then I had grown up in a part of the Warsaw pact, not a thought I cherish. The weapons (Lee-Enfield) my father had when he was soldiers in the 50 'was picked up on the beaches of Normandy.

There is nothing so special about being martyred on so-called D-Day. That is, from an Indian perspective on an India-centered forum. No personal offence intended.
Except for academic interests, we are lot more interested in wars concerning Republic of India.

Imperialist's killing each other & getting broke in that process was the god-sent opportunity for colonies to throw the oppressor's yoke. Most nations made good of that opportunity & the result is out there.

Anyway, 21st century is an ASIAN one. "Evil-white-men" are passe. Hardly anyone cares.

Nordic welfare states are crushing under the weight of theoir own systems, owing to low birth rates & aging population.

EU as a whole is sinking ship, out on life-support systems. US still has lots of stem left though.

But, history has turned full circle. China, India, S. Korea, Japan, Vietnam & Turkey are countries to watch out for.

 

[TrueSpirit]

If there is no British in my Village ...Yes I' not going into a train only Major Cities get Train links Like Nowadays Metro Train and Electric Train ..

British Building is Converted into a School in my Village ..If there is no British I want to go 10 miles for School .a private School is established in my Village is after 2000


Even Many Indian's also Accept this word

Leave me out.

 

[Ray]

With all due respect, Indian soldiers were fighting SOMEONE ELSE'S WAR.

They had the option of not joining the Army that was controlled by someone else.

I am sure they knew what they were getting into when the volunteered to join the Army that was controlled by someone else.

For instance, there are many deprived tribal in Chattisgarh. There are those who have joined the Naxal, but then there are those who have rejected the Naxals and joined the Salwa Judum as many Indians of that time did not join the Army but became revolutionaries against the British! And the latter was no less brave and committed than the former!

 

[freakinghell]

Personally, I do not hold the "British Indian Army" in especially high regard. But, eventually, that very institution is the progenitor of today's IA & they are doing rather okay, ain't they?

.

Indian Army should have no connection to british indian army. we should rebuild those 'historic' buildings and institutions built by british that are used by our armed forces today.

British Indian army was there to keep India under british rule. while Indian Army fights to keep India free. they are different, IA should be fully Indian.

otherwise SajeevJino 's in the Indian army will feel obliged to kiss british behind because they think indians are way too primitive to build something like IMA and have to thank Willington for building it for us.

having a brit viceroy portrait in an Indian Army building is not just in bad taste but is downright offensive to freedom fighters and our indian people

you might disagree with me here, but i'd say we should demolish/ abandon everything that is part of british raj legacy. the two sh-tty trains they built makes people think british rule was blessing for India.. and that thinking just boils my blood

( I apologize for making an off topic post)

 

[Ray]

Indian Army should have no connection to british indian army. we should rebuild those 'historic' buildings and institutions built by british that are used by our armed forces today.

Then we may have to destroy a whole lot of India since it should not be confined to only Army buildings, but every building that has been taken over by the Govt of free India from the colonial Raj.

Ideal would be to start with the Rashtrapati Bhavan!

 

[p2prada]

Mugals by that denominator would be villains to India.

But would you dare say the same to their descendants who are right now in India?

Perceptions!

Biases!

Time to recognise the reality and realpolitik!

Ah, I would never allow the atrocities of the parents to be blamed on the child.

With all due respect, Indian soldiers were fighting SOMEONE ELSE'S WAR.

Someone else's war, but still a lot of our people were involved.

No harm in respecting their decision and taking some of the credit for the victory too.

Let's not forget that the Indian Army was the largest standing "all volunteer" force in history.

 

[freakinghell]

Then we may have to destroy a whole lot of India since it should not be confined to only Army buildings, but every building that has been taken over by the Govt of free India from the colonial Raj.

Ideal would be to start with the Rashtrapati Bhavan!

i didn't mean every building but at least iconic/ important buildings. yes, rashtrapati bhavan, sansad bhavan etc should be indian designed. anyway. we cannot achieve that today, but hopefully we will one day when we have enough resources.

Someone else's war, but still a lot of our people were involved.

No harm in respecting their decision and taking some of the credit for the victory too.

Let's not forget that the Indian Army was the largest standing "all volunteer" force in history.

you can take pride in fighting for brits, i cant.

 

[DivineHeretic]

All though this discussion is going off topic, May I ask China and Iran were never colonies, do they dont have Railway? Today Indian railway is dedicated to serve people and Indian industry. They were not colonies, dont they have School system?

British created Railway to send troops to rebellious area as soon as possible and to smuggle Indian wealth to Britain, not to serve Indian public.

Britain attacked us as a nation. Unlike Afghanistan or Iran, by the way they(Iran and Afghanistan) were not self-proclaimed "Civilized" unlike British, they did not paint a rosy picture of India, British were claiming British leave India, then it will be an anarchy. Indians are expert enough to rule them selves. British claimed under British rule India was developing. Neither Iran or Afghanistan said so.

Please understand the fact.

For topic, I believe Germans would do better if they decided to follow Rommel's war plan, crushing enemy in beach head. And it could be done if Germans were mentally prepared and if they decided to support German garrisons of Umaha, Utah, Sword, Juno, Point-Du-Hoc, Gold with their massive artillery as well as if the Panzer division which was under direct control of Hitler, advanced.

Leaving out the offtopic paras for another time....

As far as the amphibious assaults were concerned, by the time the assault was actually put into motion, the diversionary tactics of the Allies had completely paralysed the German intelligence, and by extension the German higher command, to the real threat. The diversions had been so effective that even after the Airborne assaults by the Brits and the Americans, the German command was terming it a diversion......

It took the full day and much of the night of D-Day for the Germans to realise that the amphibious landings in Normandy were the real deal, by then Rommel's plans would not have mattered. The beaches had already changed hands.

And even when the Panzer divisions were pressed to contain the outbreak, they had to move on road....entire armored divisions on road...the Allied bombings had destroyed rail networks, rendering them useless. Then came the Airborne troops, who outfought the german reinforcements, allowing the Amphibious assault to be executed smoothly.

There are a lot of things that we can and should learn from the D-Day ops, and that is not included to the assault only. The Allies prepared the entire theatre for the assault. Diversions were put in place which alongwith intelligence spoofing gave a false picture of the situation to the Germans.

Then there was the selective isolation of the assault areas, cutting them off from the rest of France by using Airborne troops to hold strategic chokepoints. This is something that WE are to be able to do, if we want to conduct any high intensity thrusts, be it in the deserts of Thar, the mountains of Ladakh or the the beaches of Pak.

The Germans had set themselves up for a disaster the moment they mistook the airborne drops as diversions IMO. If they had responded immediately, the Panzer divisions would probably have enough time to reach the beaches and even stop the assault, or atleast prevent the breakout.

We also saw atleast one entire army getting pincered and massacred because of poor command and lack of situational awareness.

 

[SajeevJino]

.

Where I do live there was no railway, no school, no Hospital, no road. There was only Jungles and tribes. It is Indian government who created those. From 1900 to 1942, how many famines occurred in India? How many people died? And From 1947 to present how many famine occurred here? How many people died here? Of course we have problems, but fact is now-a-days we can stop injustice if we protest. We can oust Government if they failed. Did we do that in British rule? Many people went into a simple non-violence protest in Jalianwalabagh, they were butchered. Did British punish those?

I never Said I thank to the British Army Anywhere in my Post ..There is lot of Tough Leaders who ruled us and may some Humans also ruled as under British Rule ..How many Indian Kings Killed Indians before British Rule in India..

What was literacy rate of India from 1857 to 1947? And compare that from 1947 to present.

The 2 World wars Change the History ..Even we can Calculate Americans Growth rate Japanese Growth rate

.

What to expect from Indians brainwashed by English Medium Language schools mostly ran by Christian Missionaries? ( It may sound offensive)

Superstition,that British claims to save us from it, during Medieval time all had superstitions. Forget Christian Witch hunt? Christian Catholic's war machine against poor Red Indians? I have no personal hatred or Grudge against Christians, but Missionaries always want to convert. It is not right.

None are civilized, completely, but dont became self-proclaimed Savior. It is against Morality unless it is not supported by your activity.

I never Studied in a English Medium School or a Private School ..Studied in a Government school ..If there is no School near my Village I never be in DFI too

I Don't know about Christian Missionaries..As for as I know that I agree to your words

 

[SajeevJino]

move to UK bruv, i'd pay for the ticket.. there you can be their slave, you can wash their toilets, or serve as maid or polish their boots as a day job. you can even ride their trains.. and thank them for agreeing to enslave you, again..

I never want this kind of Replies Stay on the Topic or

 

[Waffen SS]

I never Said I thank to the British Army Anywhere in my Post ..There is lot of Tough Leaders who ruled us and may some Humans also ruled as under British Rule ..How many Indian Kings Killed Indians before British Rule in India..

The 2 World wars Change the History ..Even we can Calculate Americans Growth rate Japanese Growth rate

.I never Studied in a English Medium School or a Private School ..Studied in a Government school ..If there is no School near my Village I never be in DFI too

I Don't know about Christian Missionaries..As for as I know that I agree to your words

Off course many Indian kings were brutal, how ever can you show any single king who did not kill their own people?

How ever British government used their British army to torture Indians. Jalianwalabagh Massacre was happened because British Government ordered it. So supporting British Government is same to supporting British army. Still you need to keep it in mind mate, Which Indian leader they preferred when they transferred power in 1947? The leader was against Netaji and unrealistic, agreed in partition to get power. Dont forget he opposed about INA soldiers recruitment in new Indian army.

Yes, 2 world wars changed the history, so we need to thankful to Germany, even though their primary intention was not to liberate India, they helped us because they wanted to weaken British. Still they did a lot to us.

@DivineHeretic, Germans were not massacred, they fought brave, their main problem by 1944 was complete allied air superiority and overwhelming strength in replacement. And also dont forget Italy's poor performance. In Both World Wars, Germany lost not because of it's Military, it did outstanding performance, but they lost due to their Government's wrong Foreign Policy- Famous example Operation Barbarossa.

I hope Germany and Austria will again reunite.

 

[DivineHeretic]

Off course many Indian kings were brutal, how ever can you show any single king who did not kill their own people?

How ever British government used their British army to torture Indians. Jalianwalabagh Massacre was happened because British Government ordered it. So supporting British Government is same to supporting British army. Still you need to keep it in mind mate, Which Indian leader they preferred when they transferred power in 1947? The leader was against Netaji and unrealistic, agreed in partition to get power. Dont forget he opposed about INA soldiers recruitment in new Indian army.

Yes, 2 world wars changed the history, so we need to thankful to Germany, even though their primary intention was not to liberate India, they helped us because they wanted to weaken British. Still they did a lot to us.

@DivineHeretic, Germans were not massacred, they fought brave, their main problem by 1944 was complete allied air superiority and overwhelming strength in replacement. And also dont forget Italy's poor performance. In Both World Wars, Germany lost not because of it's Military, it did outstanding performance, but they lost due to their Government's wrong Foreign Policy- Famous example Operation Barbarossa.

I hope Germany and Austria will again reunite.

The German fighting forces fought hard and performed better than was expected of them, no denying that. However the German command, especially the Air force command left a lot to be desired. You had commanders busy with vaccations while the air campaign against the British was going south. You had the commanders confused and paralysed when the allied forces staged the Normandy invasion.

The difference between the performance of field units and commanders must be distinguished. Apart from Rommel and a handfull of competent commanders, the rest of the German command did not so justice to their warfighting capability.

Lets leave the Italians out of this, they were a 19th century in a 20th century battlefield.

The German military as a whole, performed remarkably, revolutionizing armored and combined warfare. The commanders were excellent planners, but not good executioners. The most well known operations, the African Camoaign and the Blitzkrieg through France were thw execution of one commander, Rommel.

Operation Barbarosa was as much a military defeat as a political one. The army pushed far deeper than the supply lines could afford to supply. They engaged in seige warfare (At Hitler's behest, no doubt) removing their true advantage. Their formations went in blind, at times without any recon at all. The army must share the blame for operation barbarosa.

 

[Waffen SS]

Lets leave the Italians out of this, they were a 19th century in a 20th century battlefield.

The German military as a whole, performed remarkably, revolutionizing armored and combined warfare. The commanders were excellent planners, but not good executioners. The most well known operations, the African Camoaign and the Blitzkrieg through France were thw execution of one commander, Rommel.

Operation Barbarosa was as much a military defeat as a political one. The army pushed far deeper than the supply lines could afford to supply. They engaged in seige warfare (At Hitler's behest, no doubt) removing their true advantage. Their formations went in blind, at times without any recon at all. The army must share the blame for operation barbarosa.

When you have this man as your head-of command what can you expect???

Same happened in Soviet Union. Stalin was more notorious than Hitler.
Dont forget what he did to USSR. Poor leadership was one of the main reason that Soviet troops were crushed heavily in start of Operation Barbarossa and Winters War. And it was caused by these-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge
Purge of the Red Army in 1941 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When you have over smart leaders like them, you get screwed up, no matter how Brilliant you are.

Nope mate, Rommel was not the chief executioner of German victory in West Europe.

To say in details but in short- After WW1, France understood it cant with stand German invasion unless it is not supported by other countries, so they decided to make a huge Defense wall along Germany-France Border, known as Maginot like, Maginot Line - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Germans understood they cant overcome the heavily defended this line, so they decided at first to attack Belgium, Holland and Luxembourg. Their plan was to bypass Maginot line. As the Belgium and Luxembourg share a border with France, so they decided when French prepared for a possible German invasion directly from Germany-France border, and stationed their all equipment there leaving France-Belgium border completely undefended, then Germans would attack weak low land countries, these would be captured within 1 week, France would be shocked in this, and before French managed to divert it's troops to Belgium border, Germans would be already in Northern France, much like this WW1 era plan-Schlieffen Plan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This was called Fall Gelb plan, how ever a sudden accident changed all.

Mechelen incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia One German light plane, with on board of high ranking officers carrying documents of Fall Gelb, crashed inside Belgium, Belgium police discovered some part of the documents before Germans destroy those. France was alerted, French and British troops instantly moved to Belgium, Germany there fore changed plane.

Manstein Plan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Erich Von Manstein, a German officer said now France is alert and it's troops are in Belgium, and now both Maginot line and Belgium is well defended, so Germany needs to launch a feint attack on Low lands, convincing them as French expected main German thrust is coming from Belgium, they would send their all military. How ever this feint attack's goal would be only to capture low land countries, then main German thrust would be launched through lightly defended Maginot line, as French already sent their military to Belgium, then Germans would advance through Belgium-French border, trapping French and British in low land while continuing their advance to Paris. It is in Short.

Among other best German Generals were Kesselring, Albert Kesselring - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and of course Guderian who made German Panzer divisions.Heinz Guderian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You may find what I said in internet that may be too long, how ever these are the summarized version of what I read in Books.

 

[angeldude13]

In the "Indian context"? What is that? Neo-Nazi? Yes there are too many of you little pukes here.

In the context of December 6, 1944, your remark shows you to be a myopic asshole. There are too many pathetic Walter Mittys (look it up, it's a story by James Thurber) like you on DFI who wouldn't know one end of a rifle from another in the first place. India would be part of the The Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere today if it weren't for British, Americans and Australians. For that matter, Hitler would have been happy to put you little hindoos in his ovens along with the remaining Jews if he had prevailed. And, I as I see it, you all will be speaking Chinese eventually because of your racist hate of whites.

It is truly a shame that DFI allows ignoramuses like you to even post. And there really isn't a sufficient number of knowledgeable posters to counteract the overwhelming mass of braying jackasses like you. After 18 months I really don't see any difference between Indians like you and the Pakistanis.

Indians who should be honored are the soldiers captured in North Africa who refused to be turned into Wehrmacht because they knew what it meant to eat the King's salt. Figure that out, fool. You don't deserve to shine their shoes.

first of all i don't give a damn to aryan theory.
second f@ck churchill and that whore of a queen victoria or whatever.
these british bastard slaughtered our forefathers and looted us.
i don't give a damn if i would have been gassed or aryanized but i will not respect those filths from the little island called england.
surely i respect the likes of roosevolt and abraham lincoln but not that fat bastard british thug and that old queen b8tch.