Countering cold start: Military to adopt new war concept

The Last Stand

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1) Pakistan has hundreds of thermobaric warheads ranging from 10mt to 100mt
Thermobaric bombs rarely have a yield over 2 or 3 kt. How the heck did Thermobaric bombs achieve the yield of the Tsar Bomba? (100 mt when not limited)

Impossible! (Unless the thermobaric bomb is the size of Chennai)

Don't take this seriously. It's not directed to you.
 
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farhan_9909

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Really, when you had the chance to test more recent designs instead. How unrealistic.

Also how do you know this when you don't even know the capacity of your nuclear reactors.
Indian test were said to be dud by both western sources as well as your own nuclear scientists..does it mean india dont have any latest design?warhead

Calculate your own..pakistan plutonium production dates back to 1979 when the new labs(name) was constructed.
first khushab series reactor was made operational in 1997 with the production capacity of 14kg of plutonium per year.this was our first plutonium production reactor constructed by Nescom and PAEC.though as per the older kpc-3 pak nuclear submarine extract.the production capacity of khushab series reactor was 21kg per year.

than with passage of time now we have 4 khushab series reactor..each after each is better than the older.and must have a higher production capacity.

Let say from 1-4 the production capacity of khushab series reactors

21kg-35kg-50kg and 70kg or total 176kg of plutonium per year,
consider that each warhead is upto 50kt or use 8-10kg of plutonium.
so pakistan capacity at the moment of only plutonium based warhead is like 22warheads of 50kt yield per year.

NOTE:i am not counting the older new labs prduction capcity which still stands at 4kg per year or roughly 1-2 tactical warheads per year
Also i am not counting the close future new reactors being made including a different series of weapon production reactors


Pakistan's construction of these new reactors at the Khushab site will result in a dramatic increase in its plutonium production capability. Combined, the three new reactors will be able to produce enough plutonium for over 12 nuclear weapons per year, depending on the reactors' size and operating efficiencies. 1 This compares with Pakistan's current estimated production of enough weapon-grade uranium and plutonium for about 7-14 weapons per year. 2 These three new reactors will roughly double Pakistan's annual ability to build nuclear weapons to about 19-26 nuclear weapons per year.

Pakistan appears to want the plutonium to improve the quality of its nuclear arsenal and build a new generation of lighter, more powerful weapons. Plutonium-based weapons can have more explosive yield in smaller, lighter packages than weapons based on weapon-grade uranium. Pakistan appears to want warheads small enough to fit on cruise missiles it is currently developing. It also may want larger yield (50-100 kiloton) fission weapons that can cause far more damage to Indian cities than its current relatively low-yield weapons. In addition, plutonium-based fission weapons could enable Pakistan to build deliverable thermonuclear weapons (i.e., hydrogen bombs). Thus, the recent activity at Khushab should be viewed as further evidence of an accelerated nuclear arms race between India and Pakistan. notice that they say when the three reactors are fully operational..but the third reactor was made operational in 2010..so if we go by there estimate than pakistan with the three reactors operational produced upto 26 warheads per year.while the 4th one which was suggested could be the reason of pakistan aim for thermonuclear weapons might push the warhead production capcity to 40 per year

Institute for Science and International Security › ISIS Reports › Pakistan › Pakistan Doubling Rate of Making Nuclear Weapons: Time for Pakistan to Reverse Course
Is that so? :thumb:

It takes anywhere between 4-6Kg of plutonium to make a 20kT bomb. How much do you think a 100kT bomb will need?

Your military reactors are tiny. Also what about weapons grade uranium?
how do you know they are tiny...do you think all of them are based off the reactor design in 90's.


How about thousands of SAMs spread out over the country with a hit probability of 99.8%. All designed to stop all the IRBMs in your inventory. What if not even one BM makes it through?

Also a larger warhead means a bigger target. A 100kT warhead will be bigger and hence a hotter target.



There is a reason why both Russia and the US have more than 30000 bombs each. If you think 150 missiles with 100kT bombs are enough to take out India then the superpowers have 3000 ready to fire warheads of 200kT - 5MT capability. How realistic do you think you are being here?

Majority of India lives in villages with those 200 cities being only around 20 - 30% of the population of India.
well i had done a calculation last time..the population of 66 cities in pakistan was about 42-43millions compared to just 10 cities of india having more than 60+millions people.

so incase of nuclear war..no matter what but india will get a civilian damage of atleast 4-5times more than pak.pak economy might collapse.i agree about this.

even if india nuke all the 66 cities of pak..that probably will account for the death of upto 40millions.but imagine if pakistan nukes just 50 cities of india?that would count for more than 100millions population of india..i am sure this would be more..but not in the mood of calculation right now
At your current rate you will need 150 years before you can make 150 100kT bombs. You will need at least 20 or 30 reactors before you can boast such a number in just 10-15 years after the 1998 tests. The western analyst predictions are that you make 10 bombs a year of the 20kT class.
4 are active with combined capacity close to 170kg.even if a 100kt warhead need 15-18 kg of plutonium per warhead.
we can still make atleast 8-10 100kt warheads per year.

than add to this the construction of new reactors with even more production capacity.

though 50kt warheads are ideal for destruction of a city.in a sense nuclear radiation and ofcourse nuclear winter as well.
and your already aware of the after effects of nuclear warheads remain for decades.
 

farhan_9909

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your people are getting killed in drone strikes and you are talking sh8t about bravery of common pakistani.

pakistanis are so brave that they let american use their soil to kill there own citizens.
pakistan is a whore country.first you were in bed with america and now with china and god knows with whom this whore will share bed after chinese.
don't you dare talk about bravery. it's an insult to the bravery word.
you sold your country to foreigners and talk about bravery.
pakistanis are soo brave that they gave away gilgat baltistan to those slant eyed yellow b8tches.
why talk about kashmir then???
you gave away gilgat baltistan so what's the guarantee this whore country will not sell kashmir???
your country is a sold out whore and nothing else.enjoy your trip in bed with china.
post reported for racist remarks against the chinese members
 

The Last Stand

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There is a reason why both Russia and the US have more than 30000 bombs each. If you think 150 missiles with 100kT bombs are enough to take out India then the superpowers have 3000 ready to fire warheads of 200kT - 5MT capability. How realistic do you think you are being here?
Er, the most nuclear warheads US ever possessed was 32,000 in 1961. They currently have 8000 warheads. The most SU ever possessed was 45,000 in 1988. They are now thought to have 15-16,000. But, both might have disassembled most of their bombs and kept them in storage.
 

DivineHeretic

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@farhan_9909, would it matter to you if your home city were hit by a 45KT working WMD or a failed WMD (generating 25 KT instead of 45KT)? Just asking....:innocent::innocent:

Or would you be be pleased (even in death) to know that the ATUM BUMB made by the Evil Baniyas failed? Not that it matters per se, but I figure you will atleast have the mental satisfaction to know our bomb failed.

But Wait, will it not be humiliating to be killed by an infidel failed bomb? ?...........
 
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sayareakd

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useless comments are not appreciated.

this is a fact pakistan will nuke first the indian cities than will use nasr against your forces.
why cant we nuke Pakistan first, NFU is just our statement, our intentions can change any time, we would love to take Pakistan out of world map, world wont even miss it, may be China will say who will buy our useless weapons, but that is all.

BTW welcome to reality..............:rofl:
 

Bhadra

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@Bhadra If CSD is intended to deal a crippling blow to the PA, why not use a barrage of conventional missiles instead of risking the lives of Indian troops?
Foot on ground and capture of Pakistani territory is a bigger blow for that Jehadi Army. How will it face Pakistani Awam ? Pakistani Army needs to be discredited. The same move Afghanistan is also trying to play thorugh Durand Line and they do not know what to do!
 
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Bhadra

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my latest understanding of pakistan response to CSD

Indian troops very well know that pakistan will use nasr at the begining of Indian troops penetration into Pak.
Also pakistan knows that indian foriegn ministry has said that even if pak use nukes against our troops in pakistan territory.we will go into a full scale nuclear war

So since pakistan knows this already..i am pretty much sure meanwhile when Nasr will be moving toward the LOC to bomb the hell out of indian forces.
The Pakistani Ballistic missile will start bombing the indian cities.Since pakistan know that a strike of nasr will lead to nuclear war.
I am sure pakistan before that will go full nuclear..and bomb the hell out of indian cities.

This is my understanding.


Meanwhile india before the start of CSD.would have already prepared for a possible nuclear strikes on pakistani cities.since they know nasr is going to fry our troops at any cost.


Aftermath

Since pakistan will be the first to strike and ballistic missile are known to reach there targets within a very short span...Initial strike of direct launch of 84 ballistic missile leading toward indian cities.followed by a 2nd strike from chashma barrage beneath silos of total 37 ballistic missile,followed by 50 odd more ballistic missile.

Result in destruction of 94% of india.vis a vis a death of 1099millions people
vis a vis in pakistan a equal damage to pakistan.


As far as the usage of TNWs is concerned,If the Indian Pro-Active doctrine is analysed in the future the IA would only embark upon shallow thrusts not going deeper than 30KM into Pakistani territory along various theaters. Pakistan had several times threatened to use TNWs the moment IA steps inside into Pakistani territory. If indeed the Pro-Active strategy has check mated Pakistan's TNW threat, then it could mean
a)IA has restructured its offensives only along the areas that are populated so that a TNW cannot be used even in Pak's own territory.
b)Pakistan had always been bluffing about usage of TNW in Pak territory. And the Pro-active strategy called Pak's bluff.

Having said that, if indeed TNWs are used by Pakistan, then I believe you had mentioned how the battle would come to a stand still.


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DivineHeretic

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Foot on ground and capture of Pakistani territory is a bigger blow for that Jehadi Army. How will it face Pakistani Awam ? Pakistani Army needs to be discredited. The same move Afghanistan is also trying to play thorugh Durand Line and they do not know what to do!
Your theory is correct based on the assumotion that the Pak Army and its generals have a sense of shame. The slicing of their country into two and surrender of 93,000 men did not deter their army from staging coups or selling '1 pak trooper =10 Indian coward theory.
Neither did 5000 loses make them believe Taliban are bad.

Shame and pride, respect and honour are alien to Pakistan. It would be a mistake attempting to hurt an organ that does not exist. We must go for something they value, something they desperately need......
 

Bhadra

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as it is, 140,000 Pakistan Army soldiers have been diverted since 2008 to the western front for the sake of seizing & holding ground from the TTP Talibans in South Waziristan & another 70,000 soldiers are now expected to be redeployed to North Waziristan for the upcoming offensive against the TTP. If you do the math, therefore, the Pakistan Army's eastern front will for the next five years at the very minimum, will be numerically inferior to the Indian Army. Given this kind of force-levels, Pakistan now has no choice but to make at least a temporary peace with India, while the Pakistan Army increases its reliance on sub-kiloton-yield tactical nuclear weapons to ensure conventional deterrence against India's increasing military might. And herein lies the mismatch: India considers nuclear deterrence as a political weapon, while Pakistan defines nuclear deterrence from a purely military perspective--something the rest of the world--especially the US, Russia, UK & France--does not endorse in the post-Cold War era, simply because sub-kiloton-yield tactical nuclear weapons tend to reduce the nuclear threshold. But the most interesting part is that despite this, the Indian Army & the IAF remain ever-confident that a high-intensity limited conventional war fought in side enemy territory remains very much viable under a nuclear overhang & can indeed be won, especially in the war theatres under the IA's Western & Northern Commands in the area between Sialkot & Akhnoor with the help of superior Pivot Corps formations (that have post-2002 been reinforced with the IA's six independent armoured brigades (the so-called IBGs which, when combined with the Pivot Corps, can become two additional operational armoured divisions over & above the 3 already possessed by the IA) that can be mobilised & co9ld-started within 48 hours, while the IA's South-Western & Southern Commands controlling the three huge Armoured Corps can be mobilised within 14 days for deployment in the Thar/Cholistan deserts in the area between Rahimyar Khan & Bahawalpur for the sake of forcing the Pakistan Army to commit its strategic reserves (ARN & ARS) in this area where the IA's projected Strategic Command will make use of massed fire-assaults with NLOS-BSMs (hence the Prithvi-3 being preferred over the Prahaar) & Smerch-M MBRLs—this being the so-called pro-active strategy. This is what the so-called Cold Start warfighting doctrine is all about in a nutshell in which the actual centre-of-gravity will be the areas west of northern Punjab & Jammu stretching out north all the way to the Lipa & Neelam Valleys--areas where the Pakistan Army will be unable to usesub-kiloton-yield tactical nuclear weapons. This is what has been giving the Pakistan Army & its GHQ sleepless nights.

May 31, 2013 at 7:18 PM


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Bhadra

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Your theory is correct based on the assumotion that the Pak Army and its generals have a sense of shame. The slicing of their country into two and surrender of 93,000 men did not deter their army from staging coups or selling '1 pak trooper =10 Indian coward theory.
Neither did 5000 loses make them believe Taliban are bad.

Shame and pride, respect and honour are alien to Pakistan. It would be a mistake attempting to hurt an organ that does not exist. We must go for something they value, something they desperately need......
Well, the idea is to demilitarise Pakistan so that Pakistani Army do not call the shots and there can be prospects of peace between the two democratic government by means other than war and terrorism...
 

Bhadra

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why cant we nuke Pakistan first, NFU is just our statement, our intentions can change any time, we would love to take Pakistan out of world map, world wont even miss it, may be China will say who will buy our useless weapons, but that is all.

BTW welcome to reality..............:rofl:
You would know the geographical realities of the Indian sub continent...
The lay of the ground, wind directions, fall outs etc etc..

And who would want 70 million refugess on your border, in Punjab, Rajstan and Gujrat beside J&K..

Pakistan being merged and stuffed with Indus valley civilisation for ever... Country claiming Shahadat for nothing..

Besides Pakistan offers a good buffer to India... let them remain as it is.... an Arab Country...
 
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farhan_9909

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@farhan_9909, would it matter to you if your home city were hit by a 45KT working WMD or a failed WMD (generating 25 KT instead of 45KT)? Just asking....:innocent::innocent:

Or would you be be pleased (even in death) to know that the ATUM BUMB made by the Evil Baniyas failed? Not that it matters per se, but I figure you will atleast have the mental satisfaction to know our bomb failed.

But Wait, will it not be humiliating to be killed by an infidel failed bomb? ?...........
well i know if we nuke india we will be nuked in return as well.

but we have made it clear..step an inch into pak territory.and see what happens.

well being a muslim and a pakistani.I wont mind killed by any means but the enemy should either not survive or converting there land into a source of radiation.
 
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farhan_9909

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Wondering If Pakistani nukes are bluff and they wont use it.than what the hell is IA doing..why not go for an offensive

last night i was making a difference between abbottabad raid and mumbai attacks(Indian considers that the offensive was planned by ISI which again is a Govt organization)

Describing in an indian way

ISI trained or instructed Mujahideen raided the indian mega city,enjoyed a free ride in mumbai.completed there mission.

it seems like Mumbai style raid was much more humiliating than abbottabad raid.they didnt took or killed a pakistani atleast.

I dont support and hate people like kasabs but i was giving just a comparision of ISI planned raids in India
 

farhan_9909

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the real headache for India will start when our defence budget will reach 20billions.considering if the economy grows by average +7% for the next 5 years and we also add the informal economy into the formal GDP

the best india can do is to have peace deals with pakistan.

increase the trade to around 20-25billions.depend pakistan on india too much like bangladesh.so that pakistan have no other choice but to bow to india.
and this is very much possible.because if Pak grant MFN to india..the trade will reach 10billions within few years
 

sayareakd

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well i know if we nuke india we will be nuked in return as well.

but we have made it clear..step an inch into pak territory.and see what happens.

well being a muslim and a pakistani.I wont mind killed by any means but the enemy should either not survive or converting there land into a source of radiation.
lol, have you guys forgot May 2, 2011................:rofl:
 

bose

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well i know if we nuke india we will be nuked in return as well.

but we have made it clear..step an inch into pak territory.and see what happens.

well being a muslim and a pakistani.I wont mind killed by any means but the enemy should either not survive or converting there land into a source of radiation.
Well you see if a Nuke war startes, not only Pakistan but also some of your Ummah brothers will also be nuked... Are you your Ummah brothers ready to be nuked ??
 

Neil

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Wondering If Pakistani nukes are bluff and they wont use it.than what the hell is IA doing..why not go for an offensive

last night i was making a difference between abbottabad raid and mumbai attacks(Indian considers that the offensive was planned by ISI which again is a Govt organization)

Describing in an indian way

ISI trained or instructed Mujahideen raided the indian mega city,enjoyed a free ride in mumbai.completed there mission.

it seems like Mumbai style raid was much more humiliating than abbottabad raid.they didnt took or killed a pakistani atleast.

I dont support and hate people like kasabs but i was giving just a comparision of ISI planned raids in India

madrassa logic at work huh....! comparing a terrorist attack with an attack of eliminating a terrorist....

seriously its hard to understand you being delusional or plain dumb...

abbot was an attack by a friendly country against a country described being a key ally to WoT ... no intel shared just came hundreds on km inside Pakistani territory right next to your elite training academy eliminated a wanted terrorist and went back... thats what i call humiliation...

mumbai was an attack on India by ISI .. pretty surprising at the beginning but as usual pakistani plans go went kaput... 9 pigs eliminated 1 pig captured paki exposed....

so keep your crappy madrassa logic comparison to your self....
 

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