Countering Chinese influence in the Subcontinent

[shotgunner]

China will always remain a small time second fiddler to USA in Pakistan.

Yes, USA is big-time number 1 fiddler. China is no-time rank-less fiddler in Pakistan who is a friend and good partner.

Grip, an inspiring word by some journalists, who maybe can write "USA increasing its grip on Pakistan by drone-bombing its territories". Grip, no, never will, cos never has it. China help build railways there, not far from borders (by Chinese standard) so all vulnerable to bombing.

that is what you hope, but India and Pakistan relations will improve, it is Chinese hope to keep the divide but China does not have the influence,power or money that USA has to keep Pakistan in it's camp, China as always will be nothing more than a second fiddler to USA, and as India and Pakistan relations will improve China will completely be out of the picture. USA is using every opportunity to try to improve India and Pakistan relations so they can focus more against containing China.

Chinese hope to keep the divide, are you sure? I am Chinese, I hope no such thing, but more business opportunities, more tourist attractions. I love the food.

China is always out of the Pakistan/India picture. We all know the big-time British imperialists were there, as some bloggers said big-time Soviet friendship was there, and now come the big-time American arms dealers, financial powerhouses & CIA drones. Like other small-time countries, China only trade goods, services, labor & tourists.

USA will continue to sell this "China containment" & stuff, that's good for business. Indian/Pakistani market is something they can't miss, especially after the financial crisis, after their civilians getting bored by "War on Terror".

 

[LETHALFORCE]

there is nothing wrong with trade ;but when you give missiles and nukes are you furthering the divide or doing buisness?

 

[shotgunner]

there is nothing wrong with trade ;but when you give missiles and nukes are you furthering the divide or doing buisness?

Are you American citizen? If you are, ask your country: Who gave the Brits nukes and Trident D5 ICBM's? Who gave the Israeli nukes? On WMD (incl conventional) and projectile tech (missile & others) proliferation, who can match USA other than the good USSR?

Are you of Indian origin? If you are, ask your country: Is the nuclear tech indigenously developed? If yes, given similar industrialization/education levels in 1970's why Pakistani need external assistance in that? If not, who might have given Pakistani help, knowing that in the 1970's Pakistan/India were in oppsoite superpowers' camp?

For most ordinary civilians, there is no way to know top national secrets. We all can be critical, voicing out concerns, asking right questions (some of which may never have answers). My questions is: Did China give Pakistan help in nuclear/missile tech? If that's sorts of questions that we don't get answers, then I ask:
- If China did help Pakistan, would NK had got similar preferencial treatement?
- Why China got angry with NK's nuclear tests?
- Why when Indian tested nuke, USA imposed sanctions, but no action was done on Pakistani when they did the same?

 

[Known_Unknown]

Did China give Pakistan help in nuclear/missile tech? If that's sorts of questions that we don't get answers, then I ask:

You may not get answers to those questions because of the CCP's censorship, but it is public knowledge that the Chinese transferred missile and nuclear tech to Pakistan in the late 1980s and early 1990s. The Chinese M11 missile was transferred to Pak and Pakistani short range missiles are based on this design.

Why when Indian tested nuke, USA imposed sanctions, but no action was done on Pakistani when they did the same?

Your knowledge of history is lacking. Both India and Pak were sanctioned by the US.

If yes, given similar industrialization/education levels in 1970's why Pakistani need external assistance in that? If not, who might have given Pakistani help, knowing that in the 1970's Pakistan/India were in oppsoite superpowers' camp?

Are you suggesting that the US transferred nuke designs to Pak? You must be out of your mind. The US as early as 1991 put sanctions on Pak for pursuing nuclear weapons. It was called the Pressler Amendment.

Seriously, you have to start reading alternative authoritative material on world history rather than the garbage that the CCP taught you in school.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Are you American citizen? If you are, ask your country: Who gave the Brits nukes and Trident D5 ICBM's? Who gave the Israeli nukes? On WMD (incl conventional) and projectile tech (missile & others) proliferation, who can match USA other than the good USSR?

Are you of Indian origin? If you are, ask your country: Is the nuclear tech indigenously developed? If yes, given similar industrialization/education levels in 1970's why Pakistani need external assistance in that? If not, who might have given Pakistani help, knowing that in the 1970's Pakistan/India were in oppsoite superpowers' camp?

For most ordinary civilians, there is no way to know top national secrets. We all can be critical, voicing out concerns, asking right questions (some of which may never have answers). My questions is: Did China give Pakistan help in nuclear/missile tech? If that's sorts of questions that we don't get answers, then I ask:
- If China did help Pakistan, would NK had got similar preferencial treatement?
- Why China got angry with NK's nuclear tests?
- Why when Indian tested nuke, USA imposed sanctions, but no action was done on Pakistani when they did the same?

USA and UK were allies since USA was formed, are you saying China is USA and they can do the same??

Israeli nukes have never been confirmed??

what power camp was China in 1970's?? it was in anti USA communist camp if i am right and what does this have to do with proliferation??

China has proliferated to both North Korea and Pakistan if that is what you asking both have received preferential proliferation from China


your facts are wrong when India and Pakistan tested nukes sanctions were placed on both

If you consider Pakistan your ally and youself to be USA to justify your proliferation than India will ally with others to counter.

 

[shotgunner]

You may not get answers to those questions because of the CCP's censorship, but it is public knowledge that the Chinese transferred missile and nuclear tech to Pakistan in the late 1980s and early 1990s. The Chinese M11 missile was transferred to Pak and Pakistani short range missiles are based on this design.

Your knowledge of history is lacking. Both India and Pak were sanctioned by the US.

Are you suggesting that the US transferred nuke designs to Pak? You must be out of your mind. The US as early as 1991 put sanctions on Pak for pursuing nuclear weapons. It was called the Pressler Amendment.

Seriously, you have to start reading alternative authoritative material on world history rather than the garbage that the CCP taught you in school.

It is, already, a public knowledge that China supplied nuke tech to Pakistan? Give me authoritative (UN, International Court, ...) proof. You aren't going to give me a NYT reporter's journal right? Looking forward to that.

1978, US Congress (Sen. John Glenn) imposed nuclear sanctions on India

1983-7, US sold F-16 fighters to Pakistan, though one of the contractual preconditions of the sale was that Pakistan cannot configure them to drop a nuclear bomb, US analyst Richard Barlow concluded that all of them were configured to carry nuclear weapons. Richard was later sacked

1985, the Pressler Amendment passed, requiring US president to certify that Pakistan does not have nuclear weapons every year.

Against mounting evidence, President Ronald Reagan in 1987 and 1988 and continued to certify that Pakistan, hence continuing aid to Pakistan. December 18, 1987, Congress approved hundreds of millions of dollars for Pakistan.

September 30-November 11, 1987, related to the arrest of a Pakistani agent attempting to buy material for its nuclear weapons program, Congress suspected that Pakistan had a nuclear weapons program, but the administration denied this, as do the Pakistanis, a symbolic 6-week suspension was imposed, which did not affect aid that had already been agreed upon, but not yet provided.

President George Bush in also failed to certify against Pakistan in 1989.

1989, Richard Barlow, a Pentagon analyst - reported that Pakistani nuclear program was ongoing, with US technology. Barlow was then fired for "security risk".

1989, US sold 60 more F16 figthers to Pakistan

1990, tensions rose in India and Pakistan due to a crisis in Indian-held Kashmir. Fear of escalating to nuclear exchange, US National Security Council member Robert Gates persuaded both sides to disengage.

1991-92, revealed by Seymour Hersh of New Yorker, President George Bush continued to allow Pakistan to buy US-made weapons from commercial companies

1995, the Brown amendement relaxed economic aid and military training to Pakistan.

1998, UN Security Council (chaired by China) passed resolution 1172 in response to nulcear tests by both India & Pakistan.

2001, George W Bush lifted all sanctions on Inia & Pakistan.

Above are from CCP sources. Oh they are not from alternative sources as you ask

Your knowledge of history is selectively missing, but your parroting & inability to think independently is more worrisome.

So, are you ruling out the possibility that US supplied nuclear tech to Pakistan? Are you completely brain-washed so deeply to have lost ability to criticize? On top of reading, you should learn how to think, learn to get rid of garbages which otherwise will soon fill out your brain. By the way, where did you receive education, Canada, US?

 

[Pintu]

Two links:

China's Non-Proliferation Words vs. China's Nuclear Proliferation Deeds

http://www.nuclearfiles.org/menu/ke...state-department-proliferation-activities.htm

Regards

 

[Known_Unknown]

You aren't going to give me a NYT reporter's journal right? Looking forward to that.

Do you take the NYT for some Chinese tabloid? That newspaper has broken stories of national and international prominence that Chinese newspapers could never hope to do so under the iron hand of the CCP's censorship.

As for your links, here is some stuff that should keep you busy.

China, Pakistan, and the Bomb
China's Nuclear Exports and Assistance to Pakistan

New insights into the level of Chinese assistance to Pakistan came about in early 2004 as a result of on-site investigations into Libya's nuclear weapons program, following Mu`ammar al-Qadhdhafi's dramatic reversal on WMD programs in late 2003. As part of disarmament inspections, early Chinese nuclear weapons designs were handed over to IAEA inspectors by Libyan scientists, wrapped in plastic bags bearing an address in Islamabad. The possession by a third party of complete step-by-step instructions for a workable implosion-type bomb raised anew concerns over China's proliferation history with Pakistan, as notes included in the package of documents reportedly suggested that China continued to mentor Pakistani scientists on the finer points of bomb-building over several years following the technology transfers. Both China and Pakistan have refused to admit any knowledge of the transfer.

They found Chinese language manuals among the weapon blueprints too.

It is also instructive to note that China acceded to the Non-Proliferation Treaty only in 1992, decades after it was proposed.

So, are you ruling out the possibility that US supplied nuclear tech to Pakistan?

Time for you to prove it. Links please.

 

[xebex]

I dont share the view of this article, dont u think its little too good....i mean, its too late for the US. China already tightend their relationship with Pakisan on defence and civilian areas and its going sky rocket while popularity of US declining since the so called "war on terror" campaign. I think the relationship is growing day after day. Yes, US has refreshed their view about Islamabad still Beijing has the upper hand i think.

 

[shotgunner]

Do you take the NYT for some Chinese tabloid? That newspaper has broken stories of national and international prominence that Chinese newspapers could never hope to do so under the iron hand of the CCP's censorship.

As for your links, here is some stuff that should keep you busy.

China, Pakistan, and the Bomb
China's Nuclear Exports and Assistance to Pakistan

They found Chinese language manuals among the weapon blueprints too.

It is also instructive to note that China acceded to the Non-Proliferation Treaty only in 1992, decades after it was proposed.

Time for you to prove it. Links please.

Yes, sometimes NYT is worse than tabloids. As shown in the reporting of Tibet riot and Xinjiang riot, they even used wrong photos to support their stories!

You called these googled results authoritative? NGO's and US government's one-sided story? They even lied to their own Congress on WMD in Iraq, on global warming, on knwoing about Pakistani nuclear program (which was probably funded by money Congress thought was used on Soviet-Afgan war)

Links, how about these:
'US admn allowed Pak to acquire nuke tech' - Pakistan - World - NEWS - The Times of India
Andrew Cockburn: How the U.S. Has Secretly Backed Pakistan's Nuclear Program From Day One

Yes, time for me to prove this statement still holds: You cannot rule out the possibility of USA supplying nuclear tech to Pakistan.

 

[Known_Unknown]

Yes, sometimes NYT is worse than tabloids. As shown in the reporting of Tibet riot and Xinjiang riot, they even used wrong photos to support their stories!

And Chinese media is 100% perfect and never gets a photo wrong? Cmon, let's stop the silly comparison, shall we? Them getting a couple of photos wrong doesn't make the whole story false.

'US admn allowed Pak to acquire nuke tech' - Pakistan - World - NEWS - The Times of India
Andrew Cockburn: How the U.S. Has Secretly Backed Pakistan's Nuclear Program From Day One

Do you even read your own links? Where does it say in YOUR links that the US supplied nuclear tech to Pakistan?

 

[shotgunner]

And Chinese media is 100% perfect and never gets a photo wrong? Cmon, let's stop the silly comparison, shall we? Them getting a couple of photos wrong doesn't make the whole story false.

Do you even read your own links? Where does it say in YOUR links that the US supplied nuclear tech to Pakistan?

Of course not, nothing including media is 100% perfect. By the way are we getting away from topic? Looks like we can start a new thread.

My links as crap as yours. The point is, nobody proved anything, all are skeptics, comments and stuff. Who helped Pakistan got nuke? Maybe themeselves, maybe Chinese, maybe Americans, only the insiders know.

 

[F-14]

Pakistan Missile Special Weapons Delivery Systems

 

[Known_Unknown]

The point is, nobody proved anything, all are skeptics, comments and stuff. Who helped Pakistan got nuke? Maybe themeselves, maybe Chinese, maybe Americans, only the insiders know.

But my link talked about IAEA inspections of Libyan nuclear material in 2004 which included Chinese weapon designs from the 1960s, with an address in Islamabad, Pakistan.

If you choose to deliberately turn a blind eye, then of course, there's no point in a debate. There's an old Indian proverb, "One who is sleeping can be woken up, but not one who is pretending to be asleep".

 

[shotgunner]

But my link talked about IAEA inspections of Libyan nuclear material in 2004 which included Chinese weapon designs from the 1960s, with an address in Islamabad, Pakistan.

If you choose to deliberately turn a blind eye, then of course, there's no point in a debate. There's an old Indian proverb, "One who is sleeping can be woken up, but not one who is pretending to be asleep".

IAEA inspection results are of course high value research materials for the subject. There are useful hard facts from it, and there are some subjective comments e.g. "the discovery by U.S. and British intelligence of Chinese language material among the nuclear weapons design documents that Pakistan had supplied the Libyans", "The exact subject matter of the documents remains secret, but the discovery was no surprise to students of nuclear proliferation or to China and Pakistan watchers"

As said, maybe China helped, maybe not. That's my point too, nothing conclusive.

Another point that is worth finding out is where the equipments (e.g. reactor, computer) came from? Raw materials? Enormous supply of electricity? Nuclear project is more than a PhD thesis, lots of engineering support is needed. China was either severely short of those stuff or quite primitive in what it had got, so helping Pakistan would be a bit stretched?

I am keeping eyes wide open looking for facts, think independently and pursue for the truth. I like that old Indian proverb, lots of wisdom in it, useful to you too.

 

[F-14]

shotgunner my friend why dont you refer 38th post

 

[badguy2000]

china has never owed "grip" on Pakistan.

Pakistan become the ally of CHina, just because two countries have common interests.

a nation has no permanent friendship,but permanent interest--put India in checks.

as long as India can not solve the boundary dispute with CHIna, the common interest between China and Pakistan will not disappear.

 

[shotgunner]

shotgunner my friend why dont you refer 38th post

Hello F-14
My pleasure.
Pakistan Missile Special Weapons Delivery Systems
I think the data are of good value.
Pakistan might very well have used tech from M-series to build their Shaheen's.
DPRK helps, I am not sure. Heard of it, but not a lot of talks here about DPRK-Pakistan co-op.

 

[shotgunner]

china has never owed "grip" on Pakistan.

Pakistan become the ally of CHina, just because two countries have common interests.

a nation has no permanent friendship,but permanent interest--put India in checks.

as long as India can not solve the boundary dispute with CHIna, the common interest between China and Pakistan will not disappear.

I partly disagree with you. Pakistan's interests are not in common with China. China used Pakistan to bridge with the oil-rich Middle East. Pakistan used China for political & economic aids. Despite exchange of national interests, friendship between civilians are also very good.

Also, you may feel the flush of saying "put India in checks", but in reality how does it serve national interests? Russia, Japan are not "checked" by any means, life get on even better with them with huge trading & tourism. Certain individual bloggers may behave stupid, in both China & India, that does not change the reality. You may argue back, but not to insult the whole Indian community, that disgraces we Chinese as a whole.

S Asia (so are we, remember this) is a serial victim of British Imperialism, Soviet Communism and US Arsenal-Financial-Capitalism, and that's why they are still developing, just like us. I have seen them in California, HK, Singapore, their civilisation is intrinsically peaceful (no organised crime gang), artistic (poetry, dancing) & business-minded (so many examples). Let's do not magnify the territorial issues, like-wise no need to romanticize relationship. Take pragmatic approach in bringing relationships forward. If we can be pragmatic with Japanese who have slaugtered 30 million of our countrymen, Russians who have invaded us for centuries, please relax on Indian community.

 

[Avinash R]

^ Good and intelligent post but you are preaching to a person who wont listen to other people's views.

Just google for badguy2000. You will find him on many military forums using the same logic.
"Everything that china does is right. If you dont agree then you are a fool".

badguy2000 must be some sort of internet sensation back home in china.

And if memory serves right badguy once said his father was in the PLA and was posted in Tibet. I may be wrong on his count though but the illogical and aggressive nature of his post reflects his background were ideological commitment counts more than logic.