Countering Chinese influence in the Subcontinent

[LETHALFORCE]

China will always remain a small time second fiddler to USA in Pakistan.

 

[Daredevil]

^ Pakistan is a sovereign nation. It can do what it wants. Pakistan is not likely to have good relations with India in the near future, so China will have a role.

Pakistan is a sovereign nation only for name sake. If it is truly a sovereign nation how come they are allowing drone attacks by US in their territory. If its a sovereign nation it should fight US. :blum3:

 

[1.44]

^
No doubt China can in no-way match the US in giving aid to Pakistan.While Pakistan may remain close to China,it will always be firmly in the US's pocket.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

No doubt the China-Tibet Railway will be more like a liability and impede resupplying it's troops,while India will have it easier to supply it's troops provided adequate railway infrastructure is developed in Border Areas.
Due to it's closeness to the border it will be highly susceptible to bombing.

maintaining the link for the Chinese will be a bigger headache for the Chinese and can be a good advantage for India to cut off supplies and use air bombings effectively, this rail will likely be taken out early in an conflict.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

I wonder when Pakistani insurgency will spill into the uighur regions of China, many Uighurs are already reportedly fighting with the taliban just a matter of time before they head North to China.

 

[1.44]

maintaining the link for the Chinese will be a bigger headache for the Chinese and can be a good advantage for India to cut off supplies and use air bombings effectively, this rail will likely be taken out early in an conflict.

The railway budget presented today states that there will be surveys done to extend the railways in north-east ares,so we can except some improvement in the border infrastructure.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

The railway budget presented today states that there will be surveys done to extend the railways in north-east ares,so we can except some improvement in the border infrastructure.

3 air bases are in the vicinity and AWACS should be good and increasing ground troops.

 

[thakur_ritesh]

i do not believe the U turn in pak-sino relations is a new phenomenon, but something that dates to the time the new democratic government took over in early 2008. if i am not mistaken, once this new government took over, beijing was without a pakistan ambassador for a good 3months, and there was further insult to injury when beijing was continuously ignored by zardari when he was on a prolonged visit to the us, the eu, and the me, but at the same time the chinese had their vengeance when a near bankrupt pakistan only got a handful of aid from its “all weather friend”, had it not been for the pak army, prc would have been dumped but that was not to be the case. kayani after seeing all this had enough of zardari and made the first move to beijing and tried to smoothen down the things to the extent that chinese offered soft loans to pak for their procurement of jf17s.

pakistan as of today stands divided in two camps one headed by zardari who is pro us. zardari sees washington has a role in making sure that he survives as the president for the next 5yrs and if he satisfies his task masters in washington then he might get a chance to be the president again and may be also have his son as the next pm of pak. the other group is headed by kayani, the on ground face of this group is gilani which has to quite an extent cut zardari to size, but off late zardari is again seen to be coming to the fore. kayani group sees prc as their real friends and this where the dividing line is and one can clearly see the different approach these two groups have on various contentious issues.

take the india issue, zardari camp believes in better relations, kayani wants a stalemate to continue or worsening of relations so that in the future pak army can again do a coup and come back to what they are best at. zardari is pro wot, kayani not so much in favor, and i seriously doubt the ghq in rawalpindi really sees this as their own war even today. zardari is in favor of better relations with afghanistan where the democratic afgan govt stands to gain, but kayani is in favor of taliban taking control of afghanistan so that the pak army has direct control on every thing that happens in kabul. now if we look at the interests of the two groups then we realise that the group led by zardari is more aligned to the us and kayani to the prc, but as the things stand today, kayani has had to face a lot of blunt talk from the us and has been reigned in so today's pakistan looks more aligned to the us but i doubt the same can be said for tomorrow.

the disaster will be when prc can feel comfortable in meddling with the internal politics of pakistan and believe their choice of govts can be sustained by way of throwing of cash around, then i doubt the us would have much of a role to play in pakistan. the apprehension on prc's part is the hate that comes from the citizens of pakistan when they see someone meddling in their internal policies and politics, if prc can overcome this phobia, us will have a tough time.

 

[Soham]

i do not believe the U turn in pak-sino relations is a new phenomenon, but something that dates to the time the new democratic government took over in early 2008. if i am not mistaken, once this new government took over, beijing was without a pakistan ambassador for a good 3months, and there was further insult to injury when beijing was continuously ignored by zardari when he was on a prolonged visit to the us, the eu, and the me, but at the same time the chinese had their vengeance when a near bankrupt pakistan only got a handful of aid from its “all weather friend”, had it not been for the pak army, prc would have been dumped but that was not to be the case. kayani after seeing all this had enough of zardari and made the first move to beijing and tried to smoothen down the things to the extent that chinese offered soft loans to pak for their procurement of jf17s.

pakistan as of today stands divided in two camps one headed by zardari who is pro us. zardari sees washington has a role in making sure that he survives as the president for the next 5yrs and if he satisfies his task masters in washington then he might get a chance to be the president again and may be also have his son as the next pm of pak. the other group is headed by kayani, the on ground face of this group is gilani which has to quite an extent cut zardari to size, but off late zardari is again seen to be coming to the fore. kayani group sees prc as their real friends and this where the dividing line is and one can clearly see the different approach these two groups have on various contentious issues.

take the india issue, zardari camp believes in better relations, kayani wants a stalemate to continue or worsening of relations so that in the future pak army can again do a coup and come back to what they are best at. zardari is pro wot, kayani not so much in favor, and i seriously doubt the ghq in rawalpindi really sees this as their own war even today. zardari is in favor of better relations with afghanistan where the democratic afgan govt stands to gain, but kayani is in favor of taliban taking control of afghanistan so that the pak army has direct control on every thing that happens in kabul. now if we look at the interests of the two groups then we realise that the group led by zardari is more aligned to the us and kayani to the prc, but as the things stand today, kayani has had to face a lot of blunt talk from the us and has been reigned in so today's pakistan looks more aligned to the us but i doubt the same can be said for tomorrow.

the disaster will be when prc can feel comfortable in meddling with the internal politics of pakistan and believe their choice of govts can be sustained by way of throwing of cash around, then i doubt the us would have much of a role to play in pakistan. the apprehension on prc's part is the hate that comes from the citizens of pakistan when they see someone meddling in their internal policies and politics, if prc can overcome this phobia, us will have a tough time.

Ritesh,

What leads you to believe that Zardari is looking forward towards better relations with India ? If it is just official statements presented at international forums, then thats a mere whitewash.

I don't see China losing its hold on Pakistan anytime soon. Nor do I see Pakistan giving up on China. They both need each other if they hope and plan to put some kind of pressure on India and counter India's military expansion and influence in South Asia.

If Pakistan is not in China's camp, they are virtually surrounded by all sides. Even though relations with Russia are normal and cordial at the moment, China still has hostile neighbours to the east.
They have no-one except Pakistan and North Korea.

Pakistan is playing its cards rather well at the moment. They are balancing the Chinese and the Americans simultaneously and milking both together.

On the other hand, Pakistan will have American support as long as the Taliban is alive. Which is why it serves Pakistan to keep the Taliban alive, and everytime the supply lines go cold, they pass statements like, "Democracy will be defeated if the world doesn't help Pakistan." That's enough to get the multi-million dollars flowing.

 

[SATISH]

China cannot afford to lose Pakistan. It is their only access to the trade routes. The whole of South China sea can be blockaded by the navy of US and the Japanese along with the Taiwanese. The Gwadar port is their last resort. It offers them access to the more precious oil from the Middle east.

 

[SammyCheung]

Shipping lanes for oil are important of course, but let's not forget China is a big territory and it can get oil by land routes, pump its own, or use up its strategic reserves.

 

[SATISH]

Shipping lanes for oil are important of course, but let's not forget China is a big territory and it can get oil by land routes, pump its own, or use up its strategic reserves.

It is not only oil. There are lots of Exports from China that goes out only through shipping. Remember Chinese economy depends on exports.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Pakistan is a sovereign nation. It can do what it wants. Pakistan is not likely to have good relations with India in the near future, so China will have a role.



The point of the railway is the move heavy equipment into the combat theater before shots begin. In fact, China is quickly building up now.

that is what you hope, but India and Pakistan relations will improve, it is Chinese hope to keep the divide but China does not have the influence,power or money that USA has to keep Pakistan in it's camp, China as always will be nothing more than a second fiddler to USA, and as India and Pakistan relations will improve China will completely be out of the picture. USA is using every opportunity to try to improve India and Pakistan relations so they can focus more against containing China.

 

[SammyCheung]

that is what you hope, but India and Pakistan relations will improve, it is Chinese hope to keep the divide but China does not have the influence,power or money that USA has to keep Pakistan in it's camp, China as always will be nothing more than a second fiddler to USA, and as India and Pakistan relations will improve China will completely be out of the picture. USA is using every opportunity to try to improve India and Pakistan relations so they can focus more against containing China.

Good for India and Pakistan if they want to have good relations. Judging from this website I doubt that's coming anytime soon.

Didn't Hillary Clinton bring up J+K??? Hmmm... is India willing to sacrifice that to "contain China"???

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Good for India and Pakistan if they want to have good relations. Judging from this website I doubt that's coming anytime soon.

Didn't Hillary Clinton bring up J+K??? Hmmm... is India willing to sacrifice that to "contain China"???

don't understand your question? why would India have to sacrifice anything?

 

[SammyCheung]

Pakistan would not give up its rivalry with India until it wins J+K. Is India willing to give up J+K to have good relations with Pakistan?

And the Russians are looking at potential India-USA alliance with interest too. Russia has a lot to lose if USA can get Russian secrets like PAK-FA through India.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Pakistan would not give up its rivalry with India until it wins J+K. Is India willing to give up J+K to have good relations with Pakistan?

And the Russians are looking at potential India-USA alliance with interest too. Russia has a lot to lose if USA can get Russian secrets like PAK-FA through India.

wrong on both counts

 

[hit&run]

Pakistan would not give up its rivalry with India until it wins J+K. Is India willing to give up J+K to have good relations with Pakistan?

And the Russians are looking at potential India-USA alliance with interest too. Russia has a lot to lose if USA can get Russian secrets like PAK-FA through India.

:coffee_spray::s:s:s

Russia is a very mature nation. He is a friend of India. Russia has helped India many times even when there were no beneficial interests to him(on the record & off the record). A friend understands needs of his friends.
However, Just after independence when we were even struggling for wheat we have never showed our weakness to any nation(foe or friend) like Pakistan did with its relations with US and now with China.
Indian relation with its friends are very balanced. India has always given priority to its interest and has used his friend for its own betterment but not to destabilize foe(every Indian friend knows this for sure).
If you think India will show any kind of weakness in dealing with US and will ignore Russia at the same then i will request you to study recent Indo US ties/pacts/deals on Nuclear agreement etc.
We are a democracy, a ruling party has to face a very critical strong opposition and voters before making any decision so we have a mending mechanism in place by default to filter every thing and to check a sceptical like you.
Regards

 

[shotgunner]

No doubt the China-Tibet Railway will be more like a liability and impede resupplying it's troops,while India will have it easier to supply it's troops provided adequate railway infrastructure is developed in Border Areas.
Due to it's closeness to the border it will be highly susceptible to bombing.

Will India's future railway infrastructure in Border Areas become more like a liability and impede resupplying Indian troops, too? If yes, then why develop it? If not, then how come China's current railway infrastructure in Border Areas is a liability and impede resupplying Chinese troops?

 

[Rage]

Pakistan is a sovereign nation. It can do what it wants. Pakistan is not likely to have good relations with India in the near future, so China will have a role.

You're not very up-to-date on the political situation between the two countries are you? Pakistan, in its present form, is by no means a sovereign nation. Your knowledge of its leaders and their très épicée histories, some of their largest, most powerful strife-formenting groups like the Karachi-running MQM, and the dynamics- economic, political and cultural - between the two countries (India / Pakistan) is lacking. China's role in Pakistan has been gradually and severely minimized ever since Musharraf was ousted with a boot up his a*se.

The point of the railway is the move heavy equipment into the combat theater before shots begin. In fact, China is quickly building up now.

Every railway is built with a "point". Usually in contentious border regions to facilitate the mass rapid movement of heavy equipment, logistics and troops. That does not detract from any of the arguments posted above. Evidently, you do not see "the point".