Counter the Dragon: With $5 billion pledge, India takes big step into Africa

Discussion in 'Foreign Relations' started by Ray, Jul 19, 2012.

  1. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    India is getting proactive.

    India is slowly stamping her presence in Africa.

    One could read what India is doing in Africa in the thread on Mauritius Leading Two Islands to India.
     
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  3. satish007

    satish007 Senior Member Senior Member

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    India is always proactive in africa, India has stamped her presence in Africa for long time.
    some countries buy India, do not buy China at all , such as Nigeria.
     
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  4. Energon

    Energon DFI stars Stars and Ambassadors

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    These tit for tat comparisons with China are silly, not to mention embarrassing for India.

    What's more important than the mere cash value is the hard evidence of a foreign power's footprint. China with its superior capabilities brings an array of infrastructure and construction projects, heavy machinery and most of all an inexhaustible list of cheap consumer goods. India not having an any prowess in developmental projects (clearly evinced by its own condition) cannot make its presence felt (soft power through bollywood will only go so far).

    The one quote that stood out for me in this article was:
    By becoming the power which provides the effective solution China will eventually win the battle of total dominance over Africa. This is not to say that everything has gone well or whether it will pay off in the end; if anything it could totally blow up in China's face. However the point is that influence can be accurately measured not through monetary value of donations but rather in palpable empirical evidence.
     
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  5. trackwhack

    trackwhack Tihar Jail Banned

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    Good step in the right direction.

    I disagree with Energon's analysis. China wont win any battle of dominance.

    The Chinese engage only with the power circles in Africa. They do not engage with people. They are detested in most African countries where they are trying to make a presence. As long as Africa remains in pseudo-democratic mode, China wont have a problem. But as democracies mature in the stronger states, there will be an enourmous number of legislative overruling of former pacts and trade agreements. This is especially true for all the resource investments that the Chinese have made.

    An example is what is happening in Sudan. The chart shows overall Chinese Oil investments abroad

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    After South Sudan's creation, most of the Chinese investments have been halted. Its kind of a stalemate situation right now. And most of the oil is in South Sudan. A big chunk of China's investments in Africa are done directly with leaders whose credibility is suspect. As Africa gets richer, a lot of these thugs will be thrown out. And with them China will be too. Of course they wont lose everything, but they surely are not gonna win any battle of dominance.

    Either way, I am not sure dominance is the right word. At least from India's perspective, influence is more apt a word.
     
  6. no smoking

    no smoking Senior Member Senior Member

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    Clearly, you have no idea what China is doing in africa. It is not about international power or influence, it is all about trade, resource and money. China is doing business with everyone as long as you got something they need and you are interested in their offer. Whether or not you are democratic country is not Chinese concerns. Legislative overruling of former pacts and agreements?
    The penalties to pay would blood them out if they LEGISLATIVLY overrull these agreements. Meanwhile, you are forgeting one thing: generally China is the one willing to pay the highest price for the african resources or products.

    Again, you don't have a clue what is happening in Sudan.
    Most of Chinese investments are pipe, refine factories in North Sudan. These are the equipments which south sudan needs. That is the only way they can export their oil--through north. So, currently, South Sudan is still executing the contract with China, but the chinese payment is shared by north and south.
     
  7. trackwhack

    trackwhack Tihar Jail Banned

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    Sorry but in the real world, we do have a clue or two be cause we have access to transparent news. What transparent sources do you have in China? :rofl:
     
  8. satish007

    satish007 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Thanks for posting this point, yes, Chinese have this issues. the African like Indian. Chinese should bring more jobs to people instead of taking jobs from them(Chinese usually create some schools and give some free medicine, but it is far from enough).
    But it is very hard. because African are very lazy, 1 chinese worker can compete to 3 or more. so Chinese have to hire themself and kiss the power cricles to do that.
    and the worse Chinese workers don't spend more in African,they save money and send back to China
    only Indian are as lazy as African, so they do not worry about India and Indian employers are willing to hire African, they are not different.
     
  9. thakur_ritesh

    thakur_ritesh Administrator Administrator

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    Isn't this a rather old news when India hosted the African leaders in New Delhi or something new happening here?
     
  10. arya

    arya Senior Member Senior Member

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    pls close the thread this is an old news and nothing will come

    or merge the thread with any old one

    thanks
     
  11. tony4562

    tony4562 Tihar Jail Banned

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    With more poor home than the rest of the world combined, with 40% of her children undernourished, with 60% of the general population without access to even the most basic form of sanitation, with her economy literally tanking in the toilet, giving aid to Africa in a grudge match with China seems like a real good idea. I'm sure the residents of Dharavi will feel proud upon hearing the news.
     
  12. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    China is richer, it is natural they will have more leverage. We can improve only by matching Chinese investments. Someday we will.

    This was at Addis Ababa. More than a year old now.

    A similar credit line was extended in 2008 for $5Billion+ for 3 years. After 3 years another credit line was announced, mentioned in the OP article. The same thing will happen in 2014.
     
  13. thakur_ritesh

    thakur_ritesh Administrator Administrator

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    Thanks.

    Very impressive indeed.

    There is absolutely no doubt in the fact that India has come back in Africa with a bang, the trade has literally zoomed, the financial and technical assistance has grown much more deeper, presence of Indian corporate has further increased so has the presence of Indians and there have been numerous mil-mil relations with various countries.

    We might have been slow on Africa to begin with, but are doing a fine job now.
     
  14. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    Africa is important. India is doing well. Slowly but steadily. India has traditional ties with Africa. A good crowd of Indian origin people resides in Africa especially
    In Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda, Nigeria, South Africa. India does not display leach like tendencies either.
     
  15. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    The Indian Ocean is critical to ensure sea control so as to allow unhindered passage of trade and resources to and from India.

    Africa is important in this regard since Africa is abundant in resources and in the areas of agriculture and energy. It maybe noted that from 2001 when the two way trade was US $ 1 billion it has risen to US $ 50 billion in 2010 and will rise to US $ 70 billion as forecasted by 2012.

    80 Indian companies have invested US $ 2.3 billion and have purchased 350,000 hectares of plantation in Ethiopia, Kenya, Senegal, Mozambique and Madagascar. India has access to energy resources such as oil, coal and uranium. 12% of India’s oil requirement was imported from Nigeria.

    India is Kenya’s sixth largest trading partner and Tanzania’s second biggest investor. India has interest in Sudan’s oil and has built Sudan’s largest power plant at Kosti generating 500 megawatt at US $ 350 million. In Ethiopia, a US $ 640 million has been given to develop its sugar industry and 379 companies have secured investment permit to make India the largest foreign investor.

    In Madagascar India has built a listening and surveillance station. In Mauritius, the Indian Navy has been allowed to surveil and monitor the Indian EEZ. With Seychelles India has Defence Cooperation Agreement since 2003 and has its presence.

    India is the fourth largest investor in Mozambique with bilateral trade growing from US $ 178 million in 2005 to US $ 427 million in 2070. India is in partnership with Mozambique in coal with a joint partnership and Mozambique has allowed Indian Navy unhindered access for patrolling the seas.

    South Africa trade is on the upswing. The two way trade grew from US 4 billion in 2006 to US $ 12 billion in 2010 and expected to grow to US $ 15 billion by 2014. India also has a Defence Cooperation agreement with South Africa.

    Therefore, there is a clear pattern of India emerging a strong partner of the African countries around the Indian Ocean Rim in improving trade, investment and economic growth, to include access to arable land and energy, the last two to ensure India’s energy and food security.

    To protect this seabound trade, it is essential to have a naval presence as much along the route as possible and this can be achieved by having naval outreach through naval bases.

    In this context one should take heed to Mahan who postulated that control of the sea would grant the power to control the trade and resources. Also the fact that Battle at sea was not an end in itself; the primary objective of the fleet was to secure one’s own communications and disrupt those of the enemy, not necessarily to seek out and destroy the enemy’s fleet.

    To this end, both in terms of strategic requirement as also trade, accepting Mauritius offer of the Agalega Islands would be prudent.

    http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...a-2-islands-effort-preserve-tax-treaty-2.html
     
  16. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    China is having huge investments in Africa.

    However, China is on a short fuse with the African labour because they feel that the Africans are too laid back and lazy.

    Labor Abuses in Zambia’s
    Chinese State-owned Copper Mines

    http://www.africafederation.net/zambia1111ForWebUpload.pdf
     
  17. roma

    roma NRI in Europe Senior Member

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    yes sometimes the endless comparisons re: dragon amounts to silliness - but the fact remains that they are the competition and so some comparison is necessary and actually - unavoidable

    you correctly mentioned the areas where the dragon has the advantage - it's better and more organized infrastructure, heavy machinery etc

    can india afford to not do similarly ?

    i think not - and so the need to compare comes in - but i do agree that it gets on the nerves .

    btw - we often do the same in our comparisons with pak- somehow that doesnt seem to bother quite as much ?

    perhaps we should tone down on both
     
  18. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Photos: Chinese blaze new paths in Africa

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    In the past eight months of 2011 alone, Chinese direct investment in Africa amounts to 32.3 billion U.S. dollars. “Chinese can be seen every day. There are traces of China everywhere,” Africans say. Over one million Chinese are now carving out their own paths in today’s Africa, and tasting the glory and hardship that this foreign land has brought to them. (Read about a mass exodus from a Chinese village to New York City)

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    China has multiple railroad construction projects in Africa. Branch offices of Chinese-owned enterprises are thick on the ground in Africa. What come with the Chinese investment are Chinese people. For instance, over 200,000 Chinese people are currently living in Angola, a country with a population of less than 20 million. The picture shows Chinese workers laying rail lines on a construction site in Angola.

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    Most of those who toil in the forefront are peasants from China. They are cheap, and they follow orders. These become the major factors in Chinese companies’ decision to hire them instead of locals. A construction team in Angola is made up of 160 Chinese workers as opposed to 60 locals. Low percentage of local workforce has ignited discontent of many Africans. In 2008, a construction site in Luanda, the capital city of Angola, became the target of violent attacks. Several Chinese workers sustained severe injuries. The picture shows a Chinese acting as the head of Angolan fellow workers.

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    It has become a dream for many Chinese peasants to go abroad and strike a bonanza. They obtained visas to African countries through agencies that make such arrangements and provide consulting services. Some of them went there anyway without a legal status. The tropical climate and the difficult living conditions are a real baptism of fire for many Chinese who left their sweet homes and comfort zones. Heat during the day turns their job into laborious and sweaty tasks. Insect bites at night make it impossible to fall asleep. A guide book handed out by most agencies lists “two close-knit thick mosquito nets and highly effective mosquito repellant” as the number one basic necessity. Much as they have prepared, Chinese workers in Africa still contract malaria easily. The picture shows a railroad worker hand-washing his cloths outside a tent.
     
  19. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    [​IMG]

    In the eyes of Africans, Chinese are absurdly hard-working. The five-day workweek was introduced earlier to Africa than to China. Even though overtime pay is much higher than the flat hourly rate, Africans feel reluctant to give up their time off and instead insist on enjoying their right to leisure enabled by law. The picture shows a team of Chinese workers looking at an Angolan woman with curiosity.

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    Chinese workers in Africa often live at or near their workplaces. Most of them do not speak English. They cook Chinese food themselves, watch Chinese television programming and DVDs, and are always on the move as the railroad systems expand. They almost never have contact with the locals. The picture shows Chinese railroad workers playing ping pong in a yard formed by make-shift dormitories.

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    Chinese workers can make much more money after they come to Africa, but they have to endure loneliness caused by separation from their families. Locals often ask, “You guys will stay for several years once you come. And you don’t bring your wives. Nor do you have girlfriends here. How can you put up with that? Is is because you have taken some sort of medicine before you came that can suppress your libido for years?” The picture shows a Chinese worker texting his wife in China before going to bed.

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    They do manual labor abroad for a few years for the sake of bringing their savings home. However, customs at some African countries have imposed a limitation on the amount of U.S. dollars one could take outbound, and confiscate the excess. This means some of the cash earned by hard toil will go into the pockets of staff at local airports. In addition, Chinese laborers in Africa are also vexed by wage arrears. Some cannot get the amount due even after they return to China, and have no one to turn to for help. The picture shows a farewell party held on a road construction site in Zambia for workers going home soon.
     
  20. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    [​IMG]

    While the global economic downturn is sending shockwaves to the coasts of the African continent, merchants from China are turning the waves back and pushing Africa into an unprecedented heyday. Schools, hospitals and stadiums built with Chinese aid can be seen in many African cities. Telecommunications systems in many countries have popped up in the wake of Chinese presence. In the eyes of many locals, Chinese are rich. China is “paradise.” The picture shows an African woman passing by a billboard featuring “Forbidden City Restaurant.”

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    Clothing, home appliances, hardware and motorcycles account for the majority of Chinese imports that have flooded the African market. Many African cities have special business streets where retail stores that sell Chinese merchandise gather. The picture shows a Chinese merchant and a few Zambian workers carting off goods imported from China in Luanda, the capital city of Angola.


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    In contrast to the Western prudence, Chinese merchants are ready to wade into many small and flexible businesses, such as massage, restaurants, tailoring and dressmaking, pharmacy, and take on any job that can make a quick buck. The picture shows a Chinese woman hawking a popular Chinese medicine to an African woman on a market in Abidjan, Cote d’Ivoire.

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    At first, Chinese imports swept the African market with its low prices. However, over time, Africans have expressed a lot of reservations over their substandard quality. In Swahili language spoken in parts of Africa, “Chino”, a word created for Chinese-made merchandise, now extends to cover any product that is cheap and yet shoddy. People there often say, “I bought another Chino.” The picture shows a Chinese merchant selling garments made in China in Atlantis, South Africa.
     
  21. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    [​IMG]

    Lagging economic development and low employment rate among locals have caused violent crimes and social unrest to become vexing issues in many African countries. Quite a number of Chinese have concerns over lack of safety and security, as the occurrence of waylaying, breaking and entering increases. In the Angolan capital Luanda, Chinese businesses are singled out as targets of robbery every now and then. Disrespect for the local laws and culture also boomerangs against Chinese business owners. Some Chinese employers often get into disputes with local employees, some of which can escalate into ethnic confrontations. The picture shows in Luanda, a Chinese business owner standing in front of her store talking over her phone, while a soldier stands behind her carrying a gun.

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    Despite being an economic backwater, African countries have inherited and incorporated at least part of the colonial legal systems into their own. Africans also have a deep awareness of defending their legal rights. In Africa, labor unions and strikes are protected by law from strikebreaking or obstruction on the part of employers. When workers are on strike, dismissal, payroll deduction and similar punitive measures taken by employers are prohibited, and violation can lead to severe legal punishment. Therefore, Chinese business practices are often met with strong opposition. In March 2011, over 600 workers at a copper smelter owned by China Nonferrous Metals Corporation in Chambishi, Zambia went on strike after rejecting a 12% wage increase offered by the management recently and asked for a minimum of 50% pay raise. The picture shows a 23-year-old Chinese supervisor and Zambian workers at the smelter site.

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    Chinese workers and merchants usually deal with Chinese only and do not come into contact with locals unless necessary. Most Chinese in Africa can speak pidgin English or French just enough for selling products. Chinese seldom marry out either. The picture shows Chen Tinghui, a 48-year-old Chinese merchant eating his lunch, his wife looking at him.

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    Chinese way of life is being replicated and introduced in Africa by Chinese workers and merchants. Africans do not often grow vegetables. Chinese then carve out land as vegetable plots. Consumption of duck or dog meat is unheard of in some places. Chinese put these animals on dinner tables anyway. Senegalese writer Adama Gaye, author of China-Africa: The Dragon and the Ostrich, wrote in his book what he has seen over the years: Chinese do not mingle with locals; their pattern of life in Africa is quite apartheid-style. The picture shows in Zambia, a Chinese woman waters a vegetable garden next to a plant with a Zambian worker.
     

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