Conspiracy to separate Sikhism from Hinduism

[Project Dharma]

All dharmic religion should unite again.
Hindu, Sikh, Jain, Bodh all these sects lived in peace until those meleches entered the scene with their Barbaric culture.

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Sikhism was born after the Mlleccha came into power and I would argue that it wouldn't exist if there was no Mlleccha.

 

[Suryavanshi]

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Sikhism was born after the Mlleccha came into power and I would argue that it wouldn't exist if there was no Mlleccha.

Yeah sorry I should have worded my post in a proper way.
I remember it was around Lodi Dynasty around which Sikhism came into being.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Which foreigner in you're opinion did the most damage and long lasting effect on Dharmic culture?

 

[Project Dharma]

Which foreigner in you're opinion did the most damage and long lasting effect on Dharmic culture?

I think the British. The rest of them either left our culture unchanged or galvanized and united us to fight. The British made us rotten from within by dividing us, making us think that our culture was inferior and also did a lot of "reform".

Heck, they had the gall to build a Church in the Golden Temple at Amritsar and it was the highest building in the city looking down on the lowly native architecture.

 

[OneGrimPilgrim]

I can bet this must be a false news. Cow is holy in both dharmik ways.

taking inspiration from MSM spin-doctors, that was my little attempt at outrage-manufacturing.

 

[Project Dharma]

taking inspiration from MSM spin-doctors, that was my little attempt at outrage-manufacturing.

I realized it but too late lol Well played sir

 

[dhananjay1]

2) Yes Ram is translated as Lord. Again, it is obviously not referring to Shri Ram Chandra Ji as they have been said to "gaiyo" just a few lines above. What should it be translated to?

Just keep Ram as Ram, Govind as Govind, Har as Har.

 

[Indibomber]

taking inspiration from MSM spin-doctors, that was my little attempt at outrage-manufacturing.

Sir aise na phada karo, phele is MSM kaam nahi le rahe.

 

[Project Dharma]

Just keep Ram as Ram, Govind as Govind, Har as Har.

Nice job replying with a smug one liner to my detailed post dude. If you are just one of those people who likes to find words relatable to Hindu deities without understanding the surrounding context and then try to trigger Sikhs by saying "Haha Look you Hindu" then I can see where this is going and I'm wasting my time lol

Here is the text referring to Govind and it is translated as the "Lord of the Universe" like you said in English. Your post seems to imply that you think it translates to Vishnu. However, this is Guru Nanak's bani who as I posted a few posts back has mentioned the deities as being created by the formless creator of the Universe.

The real context is translated on the next page. Guru Nanak is talking about "ParBraham" which literally translates to supreme Brahman. If you were outraged as to why Braham and subsequently Braham is translated to "Supreme Formless God" and not Brahman as it does not convey the Dharmic origin of the religion then I would understand and sympathize.

 

[Ancient Indian]

I hate the attitude that some Sikhs have towards Hinduism as well. Unfortunately, you have to take into account the circumstances surrounding the Singh Sabha movement. Ranjit Singh's empire had fallen to the British. A large number of Sikhs were abandoning the identity of Khalsa and people were predicting the demise of Sikhism in a few years. Therefore, the reformers drew a hard line between Sikhism and Hinduism. Funny that you talked about preserving our rich heritage, this was exactly the goal of the movement!

Distancing yourself is not what we call preserving.

Lets imagine a scenario. Few 100 years down the line, if the situation continues, what will be the status of sikhism?
Like gravity, spirituality also has many rules. If you miss them, prepare for extinction. No beating around bush here.

King Rama and many Prajapathis are torch bearers of our Dharma. If you replace their names with some non-entity, these myths will die down with time. Your future generations may not know who the heck Rama is. How will they learn what Dharma is?

Countless sects born with time. They all dissolved with time.

Then you are not going to like this line from Guru Gobind Singh Ji's bani (reference Chaupai Sahib ji)

"O God ! Since I have held your feet, none other has entered my vision; Ram, Rahim, Puranas, Quran and many others recite, but I don't believe in even one. The Simritis, Shastras and Vedas describe many mysteries, but I don't recognise even one of them; O Sword-wielder God! All this I write, with your blessings, is not what I know but what you have shown me."

Chaupai Sahib was written at the end of the Dasam Granth Sahib Ji in which Guru Gobind Singh Ji talks about tales of Hindu Gods and Goddesses most notably Chandi. Looks like Guru Sahiban came to the conclusion that studying the Vedas was not necessary for salvation as well!

Gautham Buddha told people that there is no God. Should I outrage at his claim?

My ancestors including Gur Gobindh Singh, all have their own reasons to preach what is right and what is wrong depending on the situation at the time.

Looks like Guru Sahiban came to the conclusion that studying the Vedas was not necessary for salvation as well!

This is how you recognise tampering of texts.

Vedas may not be necessary for salvation. But ved is different. You can't deny the authority of our Upanishads. Every ancestors of us gives utmost importance to it.
Even Bhagavadgeeta also quotes many verses from Upanishads.

You worship Lord Rama but don't consider Upanishads important at all. This is where the tampering is done. Rama is ultimate protector of the essence in Upanishads.

 

[Project Dharma]

Distancing yourself is not what we call preserving.

Lets imagine a scenario. Few 100 years down the line, if the situation continues, what will be the status of sikhism?
Like gravity, spirituality also has many rules. If you miss them, prepare for extinction. No beating around bush here.

King Rama and many Prajapathis are torch bearers of our Dharma. If you replace their names with some non-entity, these myths will die down with time. Your future generations may not know who the heck Rama is. How will they learn what Dharma is?

Countless sects born with time. They all dissolved with time.

Gautham Buddha told people that there is no God. Should I outrage at his claim?

My ancestors including Gur Gobindh Singh, all have their own reasons to preach what is right and what is wrong depending on the situation at the time.

This is how you recognise tampering of texts.

Vedas may not be necessary for salvation. But ved is different. You can't deny the authority of our Upanishads. Every ancestors of us gives utmost importance to it.
Even Bhagavadgeeta also quotes many verses from Upanishads.

You worship Lord Rama but don't consider Upanishads important at all. This is where the tampering is done. Rama is ultimate protector of the essence in Upanishads.

I don't disagree with anything that you said. This was an excellent debate - since it seems we've identified the core issue. You seem to indicate that preserving Dharma is the end goal even at the cost of dissolving Sikhism. For any Sikh this is would be unacceptable. If you create a fanatic to fight with other fanatics, well they won't exactly stop being one over time.

Lord Rama's myth may die for Sikhs if we don't teach our following generations about it. However, I could also make the inverse argument. Guru Govind Singh's story will die if my religion is assimilated into larger Hinduism over time. And his struggle involving a sacrifice of father, mother, four children and ultimately self is too important for us to forget or let die.

And there are 1.1 billion Hindus all over the world! How can a small sect in North India cause the legends to die?

And I have a simple solution. Teach these Hindu religious texts in schools - not as a matter of religion but as a matter of culture. Every Hindu, Sikh and Muslim kid should learn about them.

 

[AnantS]

@Project Dharma

Veere PaarBrahma/PaarShiva concept is very much part of part of Hinduism and predates even Buddhism. Infact there are many sects within Hinduism which had similar outlook. Just take a look at: concept of ancient Avudaiyarkoil temple in Tamil Nadu.

Now coming to text you quoted by Shri Guru Nanak.
The Simritis, Shastras and Vedas describe many mysteries, but I don't recognise even one of them; O Sword-wielder God! All this I write, with your blessings, is not what I know but what you have shown me."

Let me quote you a similar text from Shri Bhagvad Geeta. That might give you new insight on the line said by Shri Guru Nanak:
यावानर्थ उदपाने सर्वतः संप्लुतोदके।

तावान्सर्वेषु वेदेषु ब्राह्मणस्य विजानतः।।2.46।।

Rough tranlsation(Sanskrit Rakshasas(analogous to Grammar Nazis) here can correct the translation further):

A Self Realized Brahmana(ie who achieved Nirvana/Moksha) has that much utility in all the Vedas as a man has in a well when there is a flood all around.

Similar thoughts were expressed by other Gurus/Swamis(in Sanatana Dharma) who were born later. The kind o criticism which we see by Guru Nanak towards superflous practices in Hinduism is not new. Same criticism existed before and infact even is expressed in Bhagvad Geeta. It even predates Bhagvad Geeta from times jostling between Vedic Karma Kanda(ritualistic) and later development of Vedic Janan Kanda(Knowledge based) or Upanishads.

Infact Shri Govind or Shri Krishna himself indirectly refers himself as formless one in a quote from Bhagvad Geeta:

avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā
mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam
paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto
mama bhūta-maheśvaram

Resorting to a human form, foolish people insult me, not knowing my supreme nature as the overlord of all beings.

 

[AnantS]

@All

Please do not force your thoughts religion on any other. Hinduism always had sects, and more strong ideological differences existed between themselves than current Hindus and Sikhs. Yet they existed, and fought in intellectual logical debates(though often the loosing one committed suicide -esp- in case of Buddhists). The true learner can always find the truth and trace the steps backward. Those who want to separate will separate and will find thousand of reasons and should be allowed to separate. Lets not emulate Sunni behavior here.

Anyway this is a good sign if true @Project Dharma. Hope more such examples come out esp from of Khalistani republic of Vancouver.

https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/4jpg40/ask_me_anything_im_an_exkhalistani/

 

[Ancient Indian]

I don't disagree with anything that you said. This was an excellent debate - since it seems we've identified the core issue. You seem to indicate that preserving Dharma is the end goal even at the cost of dissolving Sikhism. For any Sikh this is would be unacceptable. If you create a fanatic to fight with other fanatics, well they won't exactly stop being one over time.

We have to preserve Dharma at the cost of anything including our lives. That said, I am not asking sikhs to ditch everything and start doing some other sect rituals.
That's not how our religion works. We are not aiming to kill Sikhism. Sikhism will exists like many other sects existing. Every sect is unique. But it will exist under the Dharmic umbrella.

Lord Rama's myth may die for Sikhs if we don't teach our following generations about it. However, I could also make the inverse argument. Guru Govind Singh's story will die if my religion is assimilated into larger Hinduism over time. And his struggle involving a sacrifice of father, mother, four children and ultimately self is too important for us to forget or let die.
And there are 1.1 billion Hindus all over the world! How can a small sect in North India cause the legends to die?

The myth will die only for sikhs. We are not going to forgot him. Never forgot him. And never going to. He is always going to be special.

In Guru Govind Singh case, as long as gurudhwara exists, his story will never die. No need to worry about him. No one will make sikhs practice other rituals. You guys will live your own life. All we are asking is, accepting our roots. Accepting that we belong to same family.

 

[Screambowl]

Dalits and Muslims together form majority in India hence they will rule the country. Majority is to rule.

Rest may go to wherever they decide. This is the current and actual fact.

 

[AnantS]

Dalits and Muslims together form majority in India hence they will rule the country. Majority is to rule.

Rest may go to wherever they decide. This is the current and actual fact.

Brahmins would then need to apply visa enmasse to immigrate to Aryan land err Merkel land

 

[Project Dharma]

@Project Dharma

Veere PaarBrahma/PaarShiva concept is very much part of part of Hinduism and predates even Buddhism. Infact there are many sects within Hinduism which had similar outlook. Just take a look at: concept of ancient Avudaiyarkoil temple in Tamil Nadu.

Now coming to text you quoted by Shri Guru Nanak.
The Simritis, Shastras and Vedas describe many mysteries, but I don't recognise even one of them; O Sword-wielder God! All this I write, with your blessings, is not what I know but what you have shown me."

Let me quote you a similar text from Shri Bhagvad Geeta. That might give you new insight on the line said by Shri Guru Nanak:
यावानर्थ उदपाने सर्वतः संप्लुतोदके।

तावान्सर्वेषु वेदेषु ब्राह्मणस्य विजानतः।।2.46।।

Rough tranlsation(Sanskrit Rakshasas(analogous to Grammar Nazis) here can correct the translation further):

A Self Realized Brahmana(ie who achieved Nirvana/Moksha) has that much utility in all the Vedas as a man has in a well when there is a flood all around.

Similar thoughts were expressed by other Gurus/Swamis(in Sanatana Dharma) who were born later. The kind o criticism which we see by Guru Nanak towards superflous practices in Hinduism is not new. Same criticism existed before and infact even is expressed in Bhagvad Geeta. It even predates Bhagvad Geeta from times jostling between Vedic Karma Kanda(ritualistic) and later development of Vedic Janan Kanda(Knowledge based) or Upanishads.

Infact Shri Govind or Shri Krishna himself indirectly refers himself as formless one in a quote from Bhagvad Geeta:

avajānanti māṁ mūḍhā
mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam
paraṁ bhāvam ajānanto
mama bhūta-maheśvaram

Resorting to a human form, foolish people insult me, not knowing my supreme nature as the overlord of all beings.

Thank you, that was elucidating. I have always known that every single aspect of Sikhism is from Sanatan Dharma roots. I posted that quote because we were debating whether excluding the study of Vedas means that Sikhism is not complete(then ancientIndian clarified that it wasn't but it is important to preserve Dharma).

We have to preserve Dharma at the cost of anything including our lives. That said, I am not asking sikhs to ditch everything and start doing some other sect rituals.
That's not how our religion works. We are not aiming to kill Sikhism. Sikhism will exists like many other sects existing. Every sect is unique. But it will exist under the Dharmic umbrella.


The myth will die only for sikhs. We are not going to forgot him. Never forgot him. And never going to. He is always going to be special.

In Guru Govind Singh case, as long as gurudhwara exists, his story will never die. No need to worry about him. No one will make sikhs practice other rituals. You guys will live your own life. All we are asking is, accepting our roots. Accepting that we belong to same family.

But it is obvious that we belong to the same family to anybody except the most brain dead.

As long as we live together in peace and contribute to the nation building by joining the Army, getting better educated, trying to get rid of corruption this is a non issue.

Sikhs are not trying to convert/kill Hindus. We do not disrespect Hindu deities. On the contrary a large number of Sikhs do go to Vaishno Devi and other Hindu pilgrimage places like Hardwar as well. Some communities of Sikhs intermarry with Hindus. The Khalistan movement is long dead and I personally do not see a chance of its revival anytime.

On the other hand, there are communities which are focused on converting, killing and trying to conquer both of us. Shouldn't we not focus on the non issue and focus our energy where it is actually required?

Anyway this is a good sign if true @Project Dharma. Hope more such examples come out esp from of Khalistani republic of Vancouver.

https://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/4jpg40/ask_me_anything_im_an_exkhalistani/

To be clear, I didn't feel I was being hounded by @Ancient Indian

I really enjoyed the debate and learned from it though we reached an obvious point of difference in opinion.

You know a lot of Sikhs in Canada and England seem to be becoming Akalis. Who are obviously different from Tatt Khalsa in fanaticism and still practice pre Singh Sabha reform Sikhi. I think this is a good sign for future Hindu Sikh unity.

 

[Ancient Indian]

But it is obvious that we belong to the same family to anybody except the most brain dead.

As long as we live together in peace and contribute to the nation building by joining the Army, getting better educated, trying to get rid of corruption this is a non issue.

Sikhs are not trying to convert/kill Hindus. We do not disrespect Hindu deities. On the contrary a large number of Sikhs do go to Vaishno Devi and other Hindu pilgrimage places like Hardwar as well. Some communities of Sikhs intermarry with Hindus. The Khalistan movement is long dead and I personally do not see a chance of its revival anytime.

On the other hand, there are communities which are focused on converting, killing and trying to conquer both of us. Shouldn't we not focus on the non issue and focus our energy where it is actually required?

Frankly speaking, we have no big issues.
All the differences are small ones. They will go away with time. I never worry about in-house fighting.

This cartoon sums up the current situation.

I really enjoyed the debate.

Me too. . . I am open to discuss this topic much more.

 

[Project Dharma]

Frankly speaking, we have no big issues.
All the differences are small ones. They will go away with time. I never worry about in-house fighting.

This cartoon sums up the current situation.

Me too. . . I am open to discuss this topic much more.

My goal for this year is to read the Bhagvad Gita. I will come back armed with knowledge and pick your brains some more sir.

 

[Bornubus]

Dalits and Muslims together form majority in India hence they will rule the country. Majority is to rule.

Rest may go to wherever they decide. This is the current and actual fact.

You mean the rising population of Christian dalits (recent converts )