Conspiracy to separate Sikhism from Hinduism

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Lol you are citing some random blogs here.

He was a Minhas and identified himself as such, this is documented even in authentic Sikh history (Mahan Kosh). They don't say that he was a Jamwal. That they're offshoots of Jamwal etc as claimed by your random blogs is immaterial.

Besides you taking pride in someone's else's achievements which you had no role in is hilarious. Brag about your own achievements, not your clansmen.



You literally take pride in being duped and having your religious institutions changed and destroyed by the British. They injected false prophecies, ascribed it to the 10th master, and you see no problem with it. They changed your books, you are ok with that too. This is the difference between you and others posting in this thread. Go and talk to some real Sikhs.

http://koenraadelst.blogspot.fr/2010/07/guru-nanak-was-hindu.html

In contemporary devotional pictures and posters of Guru Nanak (1469-1539), as seen in taxis and shops, the Guru is invariably shown as wearing a pagari or turban, like his pupils (Sikh-s) today. But this is a recently-imposed convention, not followed in his own day and in subsequent centuries.



In traditional paintings, the Gurus never wore turbans, a custom that even according to Sikh teaching itself was only instituted by the tenth and last Guru, Govind Singh, in 1699. All the Gurus are typically shown as wearing a topi (Hindu-style cap) and patka (sash). We discuss one instance.

K.C. Aryan (born 11 August 1919, died 2002), a Partition refugee from West Panjab, was an accomplished painter. He founded the Museum for Tribal and Folk Art in Gurgaon, still functioning today. He saved plenty of old paintings, sculptures and other arts & crafts objects for posterity by collecting them in his museum or donating them to more established institutions.

In 1970, he presented to the publishing unit of Punjabi University Patiala a manuscript with illustrations for a book, 100 Years Survey of Panjab Painting (1841-1941). It was eventually published by the PUP in 1975, but only in mutilated form. The Senate Board of the University objected to the inclusion of one particular painting, and threatened that if it were published, the grant for the whole publishing unit would be stopped.

The contentious painting, executed by a Pahari painter in the mid-19th century (whose name, as often in folk art, remains unknown), shows a topi-wearing Guru Nanak praying to Lord Vishnu. The Board took the Sikh-separatist line that that Sikhism has nothing to do with Hinduism, and that the Gurus are above the “Brahminical” gods. It is the same line that keeps the Sikh establishment from calling their central shrine, the Hari Mandir (“Vishnu temple”), by its proper name, hiding it behind the superficial designation “Golden Temple” or the Moghul term “Darbar Sahib”. It is also why in 1922 they threw out from the Hari Mandir the murti-s that had been worshipped there ever since Arjan Dev inaugurated it in 1604. Sikh identity as a separate religion, rather than as one of the many panth-s in the Hindu commonwealth, is based on a denial of history, and this requires a constant censoring of unwilling historical data: names changed, scriptures doctored, murti-s thrown away, the publication of a painting suppressed.

K.C. Aryan donated the painting in ca. 1982 to the Himachal State Museum in Shimla. There, it is significantly not on display but kept in storage. That is, if it has not been lost or illegally sold by some babu unconcerned with art and heritage; or somehow eliminated by one with Khalistani.leanings eager to destroy the evidence for an inconvenient fact: that Guru Nanak was every inch a Hindu.

 

[asingh10]

http://koenraadelst.blogspot.fr/2010/07/guru-nanak-was-hindu.html

In contemporary devotional pictures and posters of Guru Nanak (1469-1539), as seen in taxis and shops, the Guru is invariably shown as wearing a pagari or turban, like his pupils (Sikh-s) today. But this is a recently-imposed convention, not followed in his own day and in subsequent centuries.



In traditional paintings, the Gurus never wore turbans, a custom that even according to Sikh teaching itself was only instituted by the tenth and last Guru, Govind Singh, in 1699. All the Gurus are typically shown as wearing a topi (Hindu-style cap) and patka (sash). We discuss one instance.

K.C. Aryan (born 11 August 1919, died 2002), a Partition refugee from West Panjab, was an accomplished painter. He founded the Museum for Tribal and Folk Art in Gurgaon, still functioning today. He saved plenty of old paintings, sculptures and other arts & crafts objects for posterity by collecting them in his museum or donating them to more established institutions.

In 1970, he presented to the publishing unit of Punjabi University Patiala a manuscript with illustrations for a book, 100 Years Survey of Panjab Painting (1841-1941). It was eventually published by the PUP in 1975, but only in mutilated form. The Senate Board of the University objected to the inclusion of one particular painting, and threatened that if it were published, the grant for the whole publishing unit would be stopped.

The contentious painting, executed by a Pahari painter in the mid-19th century (whose name, as often in folk art, remains unknown), shows a topi-wearing Guru Nanak praying to Lord Vishnu. The Board took the Sikh-separatist line that that Sikhism has nothing to do with Hinduism, and that the Gurus are above the “Brahminical” gods. It is the same line that keeps the Sikh establishment from calling their central shrine, the Hari Mandir (“Vishnu temple”), by its proper name, hiding it behind the superficial designation “Golden Temple” or the Moghul term “Darbar Sahib”. It is also why in 1922 they threw out from the Hari Mandir the murti-s that had been worshipped there ever since Arjan Dev inaugurated it in 1604. Sikh identity as a separate religion, rather than as one of the many panth-s in the Hindu commonwealth, is based on a denial of history, and this requires a constant censoring of unwilling historical data: names changed, scriptures doctored, murti-s thrown away, the publication of a painting suppressed.

K.C. Aryan donated the painting in ca. 1982 to the Himachal State Museum in Shimla. There, it is significantly not on display but kept in storage. That is, if it has not been lost or illegally sold by some babu unconcerned with art and heritage; or somehow eliminated by one with Khalistani.leanings eager to destroy the evidence for an inconvenient fact: that Guru Nanak was every inch a Hindu.

This deserves a thread of its own. Can you move it in the religion/culture section ?

 

[punjab47]

No no stop lying you Hindu wadi rss liars,

How can Hari Mandir mean Vishnu/Krishna Mandir.

How can Gurus have names like Arjan, Gobind, Har Krishan.

I think as basics of Sikhi says we shouldn't follow Punjabi(hindu) culture we should follow Sikh (((english))) culture.

 

[punjab47]

Serious question though @asingh10

So then is that stuff about Gurus being Sargun avatar nonsense or just that as humans they pray to devtas but the atma is part of parmatma so higher or same as devtas at same time.

I just know what Bhimsa Ji said regarding who's foremost of men.

See Sikhi as way to reorient civilization towards ksytria instead of shramanic values.

Are tremurtis higher/more powerful than Gurus then? Some pandit says that but it sounds off,

---
.
There was talk of such a science of archery and stick fighting only a few years ago in the Punjab that listening of it the English-educated young men will consider it astonishing. In sincerity I believe present day young men might just consider these skills and Shastar Vidiya most likely impossible, because they have not even seen those bows nevermind stringing them. Like this, many sciences and skills after attaining their heights have declined. Before 1857 many quivers full of arrows, matchlocks, flintlock guns, swords, lances, spears, Sang, Katar, Pesh Kabz, pistols, shields etc., weapons, armour and many types of chainmail was found house to house, and all the people in their homes learned and taught Shastar Vidiya and became complete soldiers.
Now no one even speaks of these skills the sons of brave warriors are becoming engrossed in making money, even to us who have employed Shastar Vidiya, it is becoming a dream. In another fifty years or so, this Vidiya would have dried up and people will say it (past skills) were but, all lies.'
-Twarikh Guru Khalsa (15).

http://tisarpanth.blogspot.com/2012/12/who-is-shaheed-from-suraj-prakash-granth.html

Also that, what I see too much is out of 'Singh khalsa' or civilian populace three types:

1. Drug addicts
2. Pseudo khalistanis with good values
3. Sanatan dharmis who really are shramanic taking random nonsense from vaishnav and shaivites


You do have average non politicized person who just serves country especially army families but,


Ultimately Sikhi is not any other panth but Sikhi.

The traitors in patiala will be regardless of ideology.

How much of the Sikhs aren't Hindus coincided in a cultural context where even Hindus weren't Hindus.

Arya samaj, rationalist, perriyar, ambedkar etc.

Ultimately there's reason Khalistan failed & it's not due to lack of military might.

Tldr today there's just Khalistanis or neo sikhs with inferiority complex.

Both exist because nris dominate Sikh discourse on Internet.

 

[Bornubus]

When Sikhs consider themselves separate from Hinduism according to the teachings and Sikh theology,then we should also honor their beliefs and stop associating Hinduism with Sikhism.

 

[punjab47]

Ultimately we need a good government in Delhi & this stuff will correct itself.

The army stuff is as simple as beside patiala the Sikhs in army post 1857 were basically just there in ww1 and 2.

Otherwise the standing army was mostly across sutlej.

In ww1 & 2 if you were someone from a village and I have you 20 acres to go to Turkey & kill Muslims..

Find me people who would refuse that.
---
I wonder how many people were ethnically cleansed in 80s leading to current cultural divide between haryana and punjabi youth.

Then again I only know doaba not malwa so divide may be geographic distance.

Being culturally distinct from Delhi islamists is not bad thing though.

 

[punjab47]

What I notice here in Hoshiarpur/Sbs nagar is that even most hard-core anti Hindus worship Mata & Shiva.

So they're probably fighting the Marxist image of Hindus they have in their head. Or it's irrelevant as their actions nullify a political rhetoric they don't understand.

2020 referendum dangerous though, it will succeed.

Stalin - matters not who casts votes, but who counts them.

@Bornubus lol not possible.

If my posts not helpful, just delete them as they're not 'academic'

If Hinduism just means mix of advait philosophy plus some vaishanav stuff obviously Sikhi eats meat..

I think lot of these small disagreements are blown up when main issue is that western nri media stops any discussion from taking place.

If Singh sabha died tomorrow so would all else with it. It's crowning achievement of melechas

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

When Sikhs consider themselves separate from Hinduism according to the teachings and Sikh theology,then we should also honor their beliefs and stop associating Hinduism with Sikhism.

We are just trying to see it from a neutral lens. Debate is important.

 

[Bornubus]

We are just trying to see it from a neutral lens. Debate is important.

Then the debate should be Hindus and Sikhs or among Sikhs not between Hindus who have no right to poke in their beliefs.

 

[punjab47]

On topic Teja Singh Bhasuria advocated disregarding Bhagat bani as well. Had British state support, received printing presses and schools.

Gurbachan Singh Bhindrawale as well as other contemporaries talk about it.

Lot of this stuff has caste angle I. Even add dharmi movement for chamars, ramgarhia for tarkhans plus giving control of amritsar to aroras all in 1920s as babbar akali insurgency raged to gain control of nankana sahib from british.

Many men joined army just for the training and put it to good use afterwards.
---
My dada ji is 100+ and tells me Sikhs used to be married around fire and there were bodi wala pandits in gurughars.

All this changed around late 1920s with 'Singh Sabhas'

The Hum Hindu Nahin was written by Kahn Singh Nabha (sidhu) who layer converted to Christianity lol.

Badmaash Yadhuvanshis (Harivanshis) not yadavs but from Ikshvaaaku kul.

 

[punjab47]

We are just trying to see it from a neutral lens. Debate is important.

Then the debate should be between Hindus and Sikhs or among Sikhs not between Hindus who have no right to poke in their beliefs.

Posting so far has been exactly 50 50 hindu Sikh dogra saab.

&Banda Singh was Minhas which comes from Kachewas in Jaipur. Other Rajputs here like in Banga also from there,

Also, what is this word 'beliefs' you don't believe in a culture or traditions. They exist as a matter of fact, and only a crypto jew things otherwise of non abrahamic especially non secularist civilizational paths (panth)

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Then the debate should be between Hindus and Sikhs or among Sikhs not between Hindus who have no right to poke in their beliefs.

Did we ban Sikhs from posting here?

It's a free country.

 

[Bornubus]

Posting so far has been exactly 50 50 hindu Sikh dogra saab.

&Banda Singh was Minhas which comes from Kachewas in Jaipur. Other Rajputs here like in Banga also from there,

What is Banga is it a rajput clan ?

I have heard chandravanshi Bhatti Rajput who are also Sikhs and Muslims came from Rajasthan.

Shaitan Singh bhatti,jaspal bhatti,Raja Aziz Bhatti Pakistan.

 

[Bornubus]

I know Sikhs who spend more money on diwali than hindus,celebrate holi,rakshabandhan even accompany their friends to hanuman temples not because of religious reason but only because they respect their Hindu friends whom they are grow up with,neighbors or business partners.

But they are very sensitive about religion especially when someone trying to distort or insist that sikh is a sect of Hinduism,it does more harm than good.

 

[punjab47]

First question is what is Hinduism? If it's varnasharam dharam then Sikhs follow it & are Hindus.

Sikhs do have their own philosophy & teachings though but past that is for brighus to sort out.
--
This tisarpanth site in english & is only half right but does say some relevant stuff.

I just see it as many of the devtas are my ancestors & abrahamics are enemies of my Bharat Ma. So what's reason to fight Hindus unless they are the crypto Abrahams ones like Indira or Nehru.

--
'The Khalsa shall reign supreme and no detractors shall remain.
Those who are faithless shall join and those seeking refuge shall be saved.
The filth that was ubiquitous shall be removed and it's vestiges effaced.
The battle drums shall resound with the victory of the Nikhlank Avatar.'
The true Nikhlank avatar is the Khalsa and not Kalkiwho,as per the Dasam Guru Granth Sahib Ji, is a symbol of ultimate corruptibility. This Dohraa also echoes a similar sentiment found in the Sri Sarabloh Guru Granth Sahib Ji:

Bijai Chhand

'Lanka shall be plundered; from Palak to Peshawar shall our standards flutter. The foe there we shall meet with an Olympian roar and a swift offence, like lightning we shall be in the eyes of those drunks.
In Rome the drums of victory shall sound, silver coins will be minted and the throne of true lordship shall I bestow.
Then nor will I fight nor my force. My valorous warriors will execute my orders swiftly. I shall not leave the world alone.
I will dominate Afghanistan and move to Iran. I will cut the mountains of North-West Iran.
Listen yea all, my name is Gobind Singh of the Sodhi clan; I am the player of weapons and all shall be secured by the Raaj.
True be the will of the Supreme Akal.'
-Sri Sarabloh Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

http://tisarpanth.blogspot.com/2015/10/when-filth-is-effaced.html

Ultimately I think Sikhi is meant more to address the political & spiritual (values) issues of the sabbataya instead of the sjw feminist bs they try to portray it as.

Real enemy is the Abrahamic patrons of this nonsense,
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Also keep in mind that himachal dogras fought against guru sahib for mughals. Didn't stop Bhangi Misl from allying with jamwals though.

They swore on cow & broke it.
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@Bornubus BTW, Guru Sahib kept pothi of hanuman natak with him at all times & is likely reason for his popularity in East punjab today.

Ramayan Maha bharat Gita etc were all written. By Guru Ji in anandpur in braj as well.

Ultimately like all aspects of Indic civilization we've suffered in terms of knowing our history over past 150 years. Slow restoration coming,

 

[asingh10]

When Sikhs consider themselves separate from Hinduism according to the teachings and Sikh theology,then we should also honor their beliefs and stop associating Hinduism with Sikhism.

Yes they are a separate panth and have a distinct identity but do realize that the roots are still Indic. Even RKM, ISCKON, Arya Samaj, Lingayats, Kabirpanthis, Ravidassiyas and numerous spawned Babaisms are claiming separatism now. How do you deal with this ? Many groups don't want to be classified as "Hindu" anymore because of the discriminatory laws that are in place and minority favoritism. There may be differences between all these religions but you need to reconcile them and bring them to a common platform for political unity. They face the same threats, look at the pew report projecting the growth of world religions in 2050.

 

[punjab47]

From the foremost to the final, the sword was and shall be recognized as the primal Guru; the fierceness of which will forever be praised in the world. It is only through Divine Grace that we utter the praises of the Sri Guru Teer.
--
That is probably difference between 'sikh & hindu'

One worships talwaar first which came before & is above tremurti.

My view is only Khalsa should remain & all others absorbed into it. Don't see difference between either as see natural progression for Hindu into Sikhi.

Whether this mean political or otherwise Idk but, Shiv Ji mandir next to house in my village.

Mata Ji Mandir in Maternal Village was financed by amritdhari Sikhs who worship there.

So.. Let some Khalistani imbecile come here and try to break these 'idols'. & regardless of split in 2020 or future we're going to take over Brahmand anyway.

If I'm wrong on philosophy, let debate continue.

The secrets and workings of all other weapons I have housed in the Sri Dasam Granth. Since the birth of time, Kaal Ki Kaal (the demise of death) Sri Maha-Kaal, and the goddess sword (Bhagauti) have been reverenced.*
Obtain lights and incense and bow humbly towards these weapons. The mind becomes greatly accomplished and obtains knowledge of the Divine mystery.

Sri Bachittra Natak: 'Sarab-Kaal (perennial time or perennial death) is my glorious father and Deb (Sarab-Kaal's manifested power) is my mother.'
-Akali Guru Gobind Singh Ji, Dasam Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 5:14

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Yes they are a separate panth and have a distinct identity but do realize that the roots are still Indic. Even RKM, ISCKON, Arya Samaj, Lingayats, Kabirpanthis, Ravidassiyas and numerous spawned Babaisms are claiming separatism now. How do you deal with this ? Many groups don't want to be classified as "Hindu" anymore because of the discriminatory laws that are in place and minority favoritism. There may be differences between all these religions but you need to reconcile them and bring them to a common platform for political unity. They face the same threats, look at the pew report projecting the growth of world religions in 2050.

I would not be surprised if regressive laws like RTE etc continues, then Hindu sects will be forced to claim their differentiation as the only way out of this mess.

 

[Bornubus]

Yes they are a separate panth and have a distinct identity but do realize that the roots are still Indic. Even RKM, ISCKON, Arya Samaj, Lingayats, Kabirpanthis, Ravidassiyas and numerous spawned Babaisms are claiming separatism now. How do you deal with this ? Many groups don't want to be classified as "Hindu" anymore because of the discriminatory laws that are in place and minority favoritism. There may be differences between all these religions but you need to reconcile them and bring them to a common platform for political unity. They face the same threats, look at the pew report projecting the growth of world religions in 2050.

Yes i have read the pew 2050 projection.

Hindu - 1.3 billion

Muslims - 320 millions

The thing is we can't stop them if people identify themselves as sects,it took Sikhism 300 ~ year to established as separate religion so i am sure kabirpanthi won't be a religion in near future.

I would also like to say that i respect all those small sects/religions who consider India as their home and their allegiance is towards this land not Arabia,so if somebody ask me to convert to Sikhism i would happily convert as it is the religion/sect of this land ..... Just like several sects shaiva,kapalik,vaishnava assimilated into Hinduism in some point of time.

 

[punjab47]

I would not be surprised if regressive laws like RTE etc continues, then Hindu sects will be forced to claim their differentiation as the only way out of this mess.

Similar to groups like Hispanics and Arabs wanting different classification for benefits in us census.

Socialist nonsense meant to fracture and atomize a society.

--
Inter-communal differences had always marked the Sikh-Muslim relationship at Nanded. The native Hindus, who had always sided with the Sikhs, were more often then not forced to bear the brunt of Muslim anger for their course
of action. A local Hindu resident, Vikas Sharma, notes 'for us the Sikhs are what Rama and his forces were for the victims of Ravana. The Muslims you see since their arrival here have persecuted us. For them we are idolaters and infidels. I think they do not see themselves as being wrong they are so deeply brainwashed. They see themselves as ridding the earth of sinners when they prosecute us..'
http://tisarpanth.blogspot.com/2015/09/guardians-of-gobind-ii.html