Comparison of BMD capabilities of India and China

[trackwhack]

Can we start a fact based discussion to compare the BMD systems that India and China are working on including capabilities, deployment timeline, technologies used, mobility, platforms etc.

 

[utubekhiladi]

is this another dick measuring thread

 

[trackwhack]

is this another dick measuring thread

Which is why I put fact based discussion. I hope it does not change into a dick measuring thread.

The ABM programs of both India and China are very different. Its worth comparing.

 

[trackwhack]

First off, lets not discuss SAM's like the S300 and Akash. They are not in the same league as a full fledged BMD.


The Differences that I know of

1) Indian BMD system is a terminal phase system versus the Chinese system which has been tested only in midcourse phase. The Chinese system is pretty much the same system as the ASAT one. Low velocity target at very high altitude with a Kinetic Kill vehicle. The Indian low altitude system has to overcome challenges like speed of the incoming missile being several times higher in terminal phase than in midcourse phase (where the missile is practically coasting). On the other hand the Chinese system has to overcome the challenge of range. For example if the missile is launched from across the Pacific, midcourse would still be several thousand kilometers away from a land based BMD system located on the mainland. So either the interceptor should have range of thousands of kilometers or the system should be based on a naval platform for it to even work. Even so, there will have to be multiple platforms for a fail safe interception.

2) Indian systems (both PAD/AAD and AD1 and AD2) are based on two tiered designs. The overall accuracy of such a system would be the weighted accuracy of both systems. Therefore a 99% accuracy on each tier translates to a 99.99% overall system accuracy. Since the Chinese have had only one BMD test in the terminal phase so far, not much is known about there being a multi tiered system.

3) Kill vehicles : Though India tested a Kinetic Kill vehicle during the last AAD test, just one of the six tests so far have been KKV, the others being proximity detonation. The lone Chinese test has been on a Kinetic Kill Vehicle. However again, it is easier to smash into a slow moving object than a much faster moving one (midcourse versus terminal)

Unknowns : Radars. Though we know what radars India uses or proposes to use, we have no idea what the Chinese are using to detect launches. Ultimately it would depend on who the BMD targets. If its India specific, radars similar to the LRTR would make sense, if it is US specific, then satellites come into the picture. Hope some Chinese members can elaborate.


Overall I think both nations are following different paths to a BMD. India's initial systems were designed to combat the Pakistan specific threat while China has possibly designed their system US specific. The challenge for the Chinese would be longer deployment timelines due to the need for naval platforms. Also if a multitiered system is developed to catch a missile in terminal phase after it has escaped the midcourse BMD, the Chinese will have to develop technologies that can intercept missiles at much higher speeds (a trident warhead will be at Mach 10+ speeds when it enters the mesosphere and Mach 20+ when its altitude is around 30 km)

India on the other hand has to evaluate whether developing a system that intercepts midcourse is worth doing. The advantages of such a system are obvious, the debris fall far away, probably in enemy territory or ocean etc, Higher reaction times if initial interception fails to kick in other systems. The disadvantage would be the need of multiple naval platforms with significant costs.

 

[p2prada]

Very little is known about Chinese BMD. Anyway S-300 is equivalent to the AAD.

The Chinese are planning on using High Power Lasers for mid course interception.

Anyway there is a chance the IN may equip the Aegis system on some of the new frigates.

 

[trackwhack]

Very little is known about Chinese BMD. Anyway S-300 is equivalent to the AAD.

The Chinese are planning on using High Power Lasers for mid course interception.

Anyway there is a chance the IN may equip the Aegis system on some of the new frigates.

The S300 is primarily a SAM with its max target detection range of 200KM. The missiles themselves, of comparable range to the AAD, are much heavier and use significantly different Fire control systems and course correction. Also the AAD is designed to work in conjunction with the PAD. I would not bucket these two systems as the same especially capability wise.

Eventually I feel Lasers will be trumped by particle beams weapons due to the fact that a laser beam needs to be focussed on a spot in the order of seconds compared to a particle beams requirement of just milliseconds to destroy a missile.

 

[Drsomnath999]

usually a layman analysis is the best way of comparing .But i guess who can do a layman analysis

 

[trackwhack]

I was hoping that you'd do it Dr.

 

[Drsomnath999]

I was hoping that you'd do it Dr.

oops i forgot that .HAAA...HAAA

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Will add some info soon..

 

[sesha_maruthi27]

Which is the better defence when compared?

Is it INDIAN or the Chinese?

As INDIA is going for more futuristic design, what can we expect from the new design?

Bring in some light into this matter........

 

[asianobserve]

The more layers and the further the reach of the outer layer the better... of course the detection system must be powerful (India has Green Pine).

 

[power_monger]

I find this Thred Quite usefull.Infact we can use this thread to track ABM systems of various countries.

 

[EXPERT]

yeah, but no one seems interested in discussing the ABM capabilities of China, let alone other nations. .

their is very little information about Chinese system so the thread can be used for other stuff too.

 

[sayareakd]

The more layers and the further the reach of the outer layer the better... of course the detection system must be powerful (India has Green Pine).

LRTR has more range then green pine. Israelis learn went back and made super green pine.

 

[sayareakd]

Our requirement is unique, we dont have luxury of time and distance when it comes to Pakistani and Chinese missiles. Therefore we will use look-shoot-shoot.

China has luxury of time and distance to its hot targets. They can track and shoot, plus have space based assets for detection of missile launches.
Ofcourse midcourse interception is at higher height and give you more time to take corrective measure on terminal stage in case it mis.

PDV is going to give this capability. I must say that DRDO has gone ahead and use the AD1/2 type missile for PDV. Better way of saying PDV is first stage of AD1/2.

Chinese have money, tech and manpower, plus they can make these systems in large numbers. Lets not underestimate our enemies and work to counter them.

 

[power_monger]

Saurav Jha's Blog : Some notes on DRDO's PDV ballistic missile defence interceptor

Highlights of this article on the 2014 april ABM test.They are

a) DRDO unveiled PDV which has been designed to serve as an exo-atmospheric interceptor(outside) capable of intercepts at up to 150 km.
b) The PDV uses a new IIR seeker developed by DRDO's Research Centre Imarat (RCI) drawn from Nag seeker.
c) first test of PDV did not test hit to kill,but next test will be used for kill test.
d) Sucessfull Completion of PDV will indicate completion of Phase1 of our ABM program with defending capability aginst Ballistic missiles upto 2000 Km.
e) The IIR seeker used in PDV is used to differntiate a missile and a decoy.No Test has been done to check this till date.
f) To test Ballistic missile defence effectivly India needs new Missile Test Ranges.These test ranges can be used to test our ABM capabilites of intercepting salvos of incoming missiles.i.e destroying multiple incomming missiles simultaneously.In 2012 a test was conducted where a endo atmospheric(insode atmosphere) target and electronically simulated exo atmospheric(outside atmosphere) targets were intercpeted.A new range in Machilipatnam is being built at an estimated investment of Rs 1,000 crore which may be operationalized in the next three years.
g) Our BMD program architecture includes
- over the horizon and X-band fire control radars which detect and track the incoming missile
- a mission control centre (MCC) that fuses input(which may come from satellite based sensors also) processes it and sends orders for engagement to launch control centres
(LCCs) situated 1000 km away via mobile communication terminals (MCTs).
- LCCs which orchestrate the final launch sequence with the mobile interceptor sitting nearby.

Last but most important point
- This test by DRDO clearly demonstrated the low earth orbit (LEO) capabilities of the PDV. The PDV is predecessor to another exo-atmospheric interceptor currently under development that can neutralize RVs at an altitude of over 300 km. This indicates that India has capabilities to place a counter space system or ANti satellite weapons.

 

[power_monger]

LRTR has more range then green pine. Israelis learn went back and made super green pine.

indian ABM program never used Green pine radar.We used Sword fish radar of range 600-800kms. There is a long range tracking radar(LRTR) of range 1500 Kms in development? which can track a target of size cricket ball.I am not sure whether LRTR is used in our ABM test till now.

 

[power_monger]

Our requirement is unique, we dont have luxury of time and distance when it comes to Pakistani and Chinese missiles. Therefore we will use look-shoot-shoot.

China has luxury of time and distance to its hot targets. They can track and shoot, plus have space based assets for detection of missile launches.
Ofcourse midcourse interception is at higher height and give you more time to take corrective measure on terminal stage in case it mis.

PDV is going to give this capability. I must say that DRDO has gone ahead and use the AD1/2 type missile for PDV. Better way of saying PDV is first stage of AD1/2.

Chinese have money, tech and manpower, plus they can make these systems in large numbers. Lets not underestimate our enemies and work to counter them.

from Whatever i read,it looks like our ABM program is much advanced than china currently.But China would definatly take us lead in matters like Inducting them in mass numbers.
But our Immediate threat is pakistan and Operationalization of our ABM Phase 1 should definatly put fears in mind of pakistanis.

 

[sayareakd]

At BR they were talking unoffical reports that our BMD will be tested against A2. To see if PAD/PDV and AAD can intercept it.