Combat Aircraft technology and Evolution

[Rahul Singh]

With regards to MTOW. Do anyone has a source which says 13.5 tons. Or people here are deducing MTOW by adding take off weight in clean configuration with maximum external pyload..

Below is spec sheet of Gripen. It says MTOW of 16.5 tons. But if you add empty weight (7.2 tons) + internal fuel (3.3 tons) + payload (9 tons). Sum total 19.5 tons. Same may be the case in LCA. 9.8 tons of max take off weight in clean configuration. Max external armament load 3.5 tons. But MTOW is not what is being said here i.e 13.5 tons. Atleast official site does not say so. But Tejas may be able to carry extra load internally which could be fuel, avionics as part of upgradation, internal SPJ anything.

 

[Defcon 1]

With regards to MTOW. Do anyone has a source which says 13.5 tons. Or people here are deducing MTOW by adding take off weight in clean configuration with maximum external pyload..

Below is spec sheet of Gripen. It says MTOW of 16.5 tons. But if you add empty weight (7.2 tons) + internal fuel (3.3 tons) + payload (9 tons). Sum total 19.5 tons. Same may be the case in LCA. 9.8 tons of max take off weight in clean configuration. Max external armament load 3.5 tons. But MTOW is not what is being said here i.e 13.5 tons. Atleast official site does not say so. But Tejas may be able to carry extra load internally which could be fuel, avionics as part of upgradation, internal SPJ anything.

The "payload" here refers to internal+external load, not just external. Hence 9 tonnes of payload includes the internal fuel of 3.3 tonne. In case of LCA, "external" payload is clear mentioned to be 3.5 tonnes.

 

[Anirbann Datta]

New Option!!!!!!
( sorry wrong thread to post though)

 

[sasum]

The "payload" here refers to internal+external load, not just external. Hence 9 tonnes of payload includes the internal fuel of 3.3 tonne. In case of LCA, "external" payload is clear mentioned to be 3.5 tonnes.

Then, in case of Gripen:
MTOW= Empty Weight+Pay load {Internal+External+Pilot & Accessories}
But, 16.5<>16.2 !!

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Mate, Tejas is an LCA. What features regarding payload and range you mentioned is for MCA.

No I what I am saying is very much achieved and exceeded in Gripen C. They will be achieved in LCA MK1+ also.

 

[rahulrds1]

I can't say so without reservation. Gripen has longer range. Its weapon or combat load is greater. And it's a certified 9g puller. In contrast Tejas MK-1 can't carry as much as Gripen C, neither it can go as deep as Gripen C. It has been reported that Tejas MK-1 has pulled +8 g, but no mention of 9 g yet. All in all Tejas lacks in certain aspects of performance with Gripen C. But most of it is due lesser volume in Tejas, but that's because Tejas MK-1 is only 13.2 m long when Gripen C is 14 m. Naturally there got to be shortfalls. And are, indeed.

MK-1A will however be different story, if HAL manages to cut weight to targeted level. Also, it has been said that MK-1A will see 6-7 % reduction in drag.

Performance of Tejas MK-1A may not improve much vis-i-vis Gripen C in range vs payload domain. But certainly it will be on par with Gripen C in ACM or dog fight because of much better TWR in MK-1A.

"LCA can pull 9G", - - P S Subramanyam, PGD and Director-ADA

source : http://sajeevpearlj.blogspot.in/2015/07/extracts-of-interview-with-p-s.html

With regards to MTOW. Do anyone has a source which says 13.5 tons. Or people here are deducing MTOW by adding take off weight in clean configuration with maximum external pyload..

Below is spec sheet of Gripen. It says MTOW of 16.5 tons. But if you add empty weight (7.2 tons) + internal fuel (3.3 tons) + payload (9 tons). Sum total 19.5 tons. Same may be the case in LCA. 9.8 tons of max take off weight in clean configuration. Max external armament load 3.5 tons. But MTOW is not what is being said here i.e 13.5 tons. Atleast official site does not say so. But Tejas may be able to carry extra load internally which could be fuel, avionics as part of upgradation, internal SPJ anything.

Was just checking gripen official website, it is mentioned that, Gripen MTOW is 14.0,

source http://saab.com/air/gripen-fighter-system/gripen/gripen/the-fighter/gripen-cd/

 

[Chinmoy]

No I what I am saying is very much achieved and exceeded in Gripen C. They will be achieved in LCA MK1+ also.

And what I am saying is, you simply can't compare both the birds for Weight Carrying Capability. For instance Gripen is using F414 whereas Tejas is making use of F404 right now. Obviously its lower TWR would limit Tejas in carrying more weight like Gripen. When in future we do incorporate F414 in Tejas, then ofcourse some parallel comparison could be done.

But then again you have to keep in mind that Tejas has been designed to be a Light aircraft and even now with 6 ton of weight, planning is there to bring it down. Now there would always be a difference in load carrying capability of a Light aircraft and a medium weight aircraft.

For speed and maneuverability, I do agree with you, that it could be bettered.

 

[sasum]

Do we have 3D printing machines in India ? Do we also use them ?

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yes, HAL aquired one. They propose to print a few parts of Tejas.
http://m.timesofindia.com/city/beng...for-increased-orders/articleshow/50131181.cms

 

[rishivashista13]

And what I am saying is, you simply can't compare both the birds for Weight Carrying Capability. For instance Gripen is using F414 whereas Tejas is making use of F404 right now. Obviously its lower TWR would limit Tejas in carrying more weight like Gripen. When in future we do incorporate F414 in Tejas, then ofcourse some parallel comparison could be done.

But then again you have to keep in mind that Tejas has been designed to be a Light aircraft and even now with 6 ton of weight, planning is there to bring it down. Now there would always be a difference in load carrying capability of a Light aircraft and a medium weight aircraft.

For speed and maneuverability, I do agree with you, that it could be bettered.

We are trying to choose one , either Tajes or gripen .
In this condition we will always support tajes .
But is there any method by which we can acquire Gripen (as its really a impressive aircraft) as well as our tajes is also not affected ?
Thinking of a sweet solution

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[Chinmoy]

We are trying to choose one , either Tajes or gripen .
In this condition we will always support tajes .
But is there any method by which we can acquire Gripen (as its really a impressive aircraft) as well as our tajes is also not affected ?
Thinking of a sweet solution

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If you are talking about a theoritical scenario then yes. But in practical scenario, you simply can't put Tejas and Gripen in the same category.

Tejas has been built as an Light Multirole combat platform, whereas Gripen is a medium weight multirole combat platform. This is the reason why Gripen has been there as a contender for MMRCA along with Rafale and F-16 among others.

Yes technically you could incorporate features of Gripen, primarily avionics and sensors in Tejas. But if you talk about load carrying and ferry range, then you can't expect Tejas in any version to be carrying the same load as of Gripen. Yes you could have both Gripen and Tejas in your armory. While one would be a light weight fighter, primarily for Air to Air role, another would be a Medium weight multirole fighter.

 

[rishivashista13]

And what if we compete between gripen , rafale and F 16 ? Which is best for india ?
(I will prefer rafale)

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[Chinmoy]

And what if we compete between gripen , rafale and F 16 ? Which is best for india ?
(I will prefer rafale)

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For sake of simplicity, check this link
http://planes.axlegeeks.com/compare...-Lockheed-F-16-Fighting-Falcon-vs-Saab-Gripen
http://planes.axlegeeks.com/compare/148-173-207/Dassault-Rafale-vs-Lockheed-F-16-Fighting-Falcon-vs-Saab-Gripen
BTW this thread is about Tejas and lets not discuss any other platform here. But in simple terms, Gripen beats F-16 and Rafale in terms of costs. F-16 beats other two in terms of versatility and Rafale beats others in terms of tech.

 

[Chirag]

For sake of simplicity, check this link
http://planes.axlegeeks.com/compare...-Lockheed-F-16-Fighting-Falcon-vs-Saab-Gripen
http://planes.axlegeeks.com/compare/148-173-207/Dassault-Rafale-vs-Lockheed-F-16-Fighting-Falcon-vs-Saab-Gripen
BTW this thread is about Tejas and lets not discuss any other platform here. But in simple terms, Gripen beats F-16 and Rafale in terms of costs. F-16 beats other two in terms of versatility and Rafale beats others in terms of tech.

For Pakistan Tejas and Migs are enough and we don't need Gripens or Rafales to counter Pakistan

and

For chaina Gripens and Rafales is too short to counter Sukhoi 30, 35 and others

All in all
1.we have to hurry up the development of AMCA
2. we have to continue production of S30MKI till we start gating FGFA
3. We have to hurry up production and development of Tejas, 1A, 2

 

[rohit b3]

And what if we compete between gripen , rafale and F 16 ? Which is best for india ?
(I will prefer rafale)

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The IAF wants 42 squadrons each. With 18 aircrafts per squadron in average that means 756 Aircrafts
Now look at the IAF in 2030
270 Su-30MKI
120 Tejas mk1A
36 Rafales
67 Mig29s
50 Mirage2000
125 Jaguars
Total - 668 Aircrafts.
Which is 88 short of 756, which can be easily filled up with the Tejas mk2 (induction from 2025 onwards?)


Now unless they want to destroy the Tejas mk2 programme, they should stay away from any more "Phoren maal"
And honestly speaking, the IAF is trying to close down the Tejas mk2 programme. The programme is still alive thanks to the Navy.
Im sure Parrikar knows that.
Look at it practically, even the Rafale deal isnt signed yet.
If they ever sign the Rafale deal by year end, only after that they would start looking for "Another jet"
Choosing one would take atleast 2-3 years.
After that the negotiations will begin..its a long procedure.
Tejas mk2 would be close to ready by then and Parrikar will make the IAF accept that

 

[rishivashista13]

The IAF wants 42 squadrons each. With 18 aircrafts per squadron in average that means 756 Aircrafts
Now look at the IAF in 2030
270 Su-30MKI
120 Tejas mk1A
36 Rafales
67 Mig29s
50 Mirage2000
125 Jaguars
Total - 668 Aircrafts.
Which is 88 short of 756, which can be easily filled up with the Tejas mk2 (induction from 2025 onwards?)


Now unless they want to destroy the Tejas mk2 programme, they should stay away from any more "Phoren maal"
And honestly speaking, the IAF is trying to close down the Tejas mk2 programme. The programme is still alive thanks to the Navy.
Im sure Parrikar knows that.
Look at it practically, even the Rafale deal isnt signed yet.
If they ever sign the Rafale deal by year end, only after that they would start looking for "Another jet"
Choosing one would take atleast 2-3 years.
After that the negotiations will begin..its a long procedure.
Tejas mk2 would be close to ready by then and Parrikar will make the IAF accept that

So , why do you think that IAF want to close down tajes mk2 program ??
Any benefits to IAF ?

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[rohit b3]

So , why do you think that IAF want to close down tajes mk2 program ??
Any benefits to IAF ?

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2 reasons mainly
1. Deep corruption at various levels in the MoD and IAF
2. Inefficiency of HAL to deliver

 

[rishivashista13]

2 reasons mainly
1. Deep corruption at various levels in the MoD and IAF
2. Inefficiency of HAL to deliver

I don't think so ...
You are wrong .
Don't be so negetive .

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[rohit b3]

I don't think so ...
You are wrong .
Don't be so negetive .

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To solve a problem, one needs to identify the problem first and spread awareness. Its not called being negative.

 

[rishivashista13]

To solve a problem, one needs to identify the problem first and spread awareness. Its not called being negative.

I don't think , officers of our defence forces can be corrupted .
Whole country respects them and they can do anything for our country .

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[gadeshi]

UEC has started full-scale development of new PD-35 engines family with 25 to 35 tons thrust:
http://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201606201156-xgwe.htm