Cold Start Doctrine against China?

[Decklander]

This is where the confusion lies. The majority of earlier articles and reports on CSD i.e. Pre 2010, claim that the strike corps would be disintegrated into the IBGs. Note that until then there was no concept of pivot corps.
Only after the introduction of the pivot corps, and subsequent denial of existence of CSD itself, did reports of IBGs being formed from pivot corps emerge.
This clearly outlines that a change in doctrine was effected midway. The final implementation is as per Decklander, but the intial plans werent this.

Pivot corps were formed under Sunderji Doctrine of RAPIDs, Reorganised Army Plain Infantary Divisions. It is a very old concept. After 26/11, this was found wanting as GOI wanted Indian armed forces to go into attack and IA asked for three weeks to do so. This was in works from the time when Parliament attack took place, that time too Atalji wanted to dismember Pakistan for the backstabbing which they did in Kargil. But long mobilisation time for our strike corps plus short mobilisation time for PA, stopped it in its tracks. As I stated that PA has offensive defensive deployment with very short distance for its reserves to move to their battle locations. They have very few reserves, IA decided to take advantage of it and also go into offensive defensive deployment like PA. But that needs reorganising the whole infrastruture and logistics as it involves complete change of battle doctrine. That is what IA/IAF/IN are now doing.
The day GOI presses go button, IN will be first off followed by IAF and IA.

 

[DivineHeretic]

@Yusuf, Longback in IN, I was trained to take off from broken runways, taxi tracks and also from semiprepared runways. We have very quick drying cements and the material is deposited within the airbase in case of chance of a war. You guys have no idea on how we actually work once the GOI asks us to prepare for war or start the end game. Once An emergency due to external threat is declared, it allows us thru our constitution to make every men/women of India to be used as an asset for the nation. The individual property ceases to be individual and becomes state owned. Any officer can walk into a building and take it over alongwith manpower to support war effort. I am sure this will come to you people as a shock, but this is what our constitution says. Pls read it. In case of war, you might see me walk in to your office and force you to dig trenches and carry weaponloads. Don't get surprised than as I am still a war reservist.

Yup, I have read about the runway crews repairing the bombed runways and making them operational for use in a few hours. I know of the quick drying cements, though the strength you actually see is really the early strength. The actual strength after 28 days is nearly same for both quick drying cement and normal cement.

But, as of now, newer runway denial weapons have come into existence, such as cluster delivered anti personel mines and it makes it impossible for crews to conduct repairs. Then there is indeed a limit as to how much damage can actually be repaired. It is very difficult to fix an entire runway, if it has been damaged by cluster munitions heavier munitions that create huge craters.

 

[DivineHeretic]

Pivot corps were formed under Sunderji Doctrine of RAPIDs, Reorganised Army Plain Infantary Divisions. It is a very old concept. After 26/11, this was found wanting as GOI wanted Indian armed forces to go into attack and IA asked for three weeks to do so. This was in works from the time when Parliament attack took place, that time too Atalji wanted to dismember Pakistan for the backstabbing which they did in Kargil. But long mobilisation time for our strike corps plus short mobilisation time for PA, stopped it in its tracks. As I stated that PA has offensive defensive deployment with very short distance for its reserves to move to their battle locations. They have very few reserves, IA decided to take advantage of it and also go into offensive defensive deployment like PA. But that needs reorganising the whole infrastruture and logistics as it involves complete change of battle doctrine. That is what IA/IAF/IN are now doing.
The day GOI presses go button, IN will be first off followed by IAF and IA.

Negative.

The Sundarji Doctrine was made up of seven defensive "holding corps" of the Indian Army and deployed near the Pakistani border. Possessing limited offensive power, the holding corps' primary responsibility was to check a Pakistani advance.

The RAPIDs were indeed planned around Sunderjee's time, but they are not born at the same time, nor follow the same concepts.

Army Plan 2000, formulated in 1985, called for the wholesale mechanization of all plains forces with the exception of seven divisions, which would consist of a mix of armor and infantry. These could be utilized in sectors unsuitable for pure mechanized/armor formations, for example, in the Jammu-Samba-Pathankot sector (Indian XVI Corps), and in the increasingly built-up areas of the North Punjab (Indian XI Corps). These divisions were called RAPID.

As if often the case in India, plans for one concept become plans for another. While waiting for the Government to clear and fund Plan 2000, the Army decided to utilize available resources to at least get the RAPID concept underway. Since boosting the combat power of the holding divisions - which were to convert to RAPID - while ignoring the strike divisions - which were to convert to mechanized/tank formations - made little sense, the first four RAPIDs were in the strike corps (I and II Corps) and in X Corps, which is a holding corps

The terms used are clearly holding corps, no mention of even pivot corps is done in any text before its introduction after 2010.

Though I do agree that the actual plan of the RAPIDs would have given a limited offensive capability to the holding corps, the Sunderjee doctrine did not call for such use of the holding corps. And in any case, the first four RAPIDs are integrated with the strike corps.


http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/\papers10\paper991.html
Indian RAPIDS

I would like you to present evidence contradicting mine. It would be something new to learn.

 

[Decklander]

Yup, I have read about the runway crews repairing the bombed runways and making them operational for use in a few hours. I know of the quick drying cements, though the strength you actually see is really the early strength. The actual strength after 28 days is nearly same for both quick drying cement and normal cement.

But, as of now, newer runway denial weapons have come into existence, such as cluster delivered anti personel mines and it makes it impossible for crews to conduct repairs. Then there is indeed a limit as to how much damage can actually be repaired. It is very difficult to fix an entire runway, if it has been damaged by cluster munitions heavier munitions that create huge craters.

In 1971 war, we repaired runways while being bombed with no casulaties. You guys give a lot to china for its economic size and infrastructure. I do not want to be guilty of exposing much here. We have the upper hand even today and I think that shud suffice. !962 was fought without use of IAF and china not having its energy needs thru IOR. Times have changed. If they have missiles, What do you think we have, duds, is it? We know the location of all their oil storage dumps and those are the ones we will take out first. After that we will see how many days china fights in hostile Tibet and the war, where will they be as an econoimic power and what will be its size.
Finally, do you guys really think that china will ever fight a war with us? The day it does so, All nations of SCS will join in with us, is it not what the whole world is asking Indian to do? Only we have the menpower to defeat china and librate Tibet. No other nation has it.

 

[DivineHeretic]

In 1971 war, we repaired runways while being bombed with no casulaties. You guys give a lot to china for its economic size and infrastructure. I do not want to be guilty of exposing much here. We have the upper hand even today and I think that shud suffice. !962 was fought without use of IAF and china not having its energy needs thru IOR. Times have changed. If they have missiles, What do you think we have, duds, is it? We know the location of all their oil storage dumps and those are the ones we will take out first. After that we will see how many days china fights in hostile Tibet and the war, where will they be as an econoimic power and what will be its size.
Finally, do you guys really think that china will ever fight a war with us? The day it does so, All nations of SCS will join in with us, is it not what the whole world is asking Indian to do? Only we have the menpower to defeat china and librate Tibet. No other nation has it.

As far as China is concerned, If you'd care to read my earlier posts, I had clearly stated that the current status suits us just fine. They do not have adequate numbers to overrun our positions, not enough airlift capability to supply troops once road and rail links are severed. Infact we have three times their airlift ability, discounting our helis.

In any case, terrain hugging missiles are next to useless in the tactical theatre of himalayas,. This goes for PGMs too, especially in the NE where the sky is always cloudy, and gps can be confused by cheap signal disrupters.

The oil dumps are not our priority, they cant use armored vehicles or for that matter any vehicles for most part of the border. But ammunition and food storage facilities are. The army moves on its stomach, and in the high mountains, they certainly cant feed off the land.

As far as other countries involving themselves are concerned, lets not take their actions into account. We have till now not reached the position of PAK to need somebody else's support to fight our war. Lets leave this to them. Their copyright.

 

[Decklander]

A single man can change the fortunes in a war. Remember Longeywal? Never ever shun a hand extended for friendship even if from a very poor and incapable. Such people make the difference. Pls read arthshastra, This whole gamut of relationships between nations is based on battle doctrines only. We can defeat china economically by announcing a military pact with SCS nations as part of strategic alliance in which India will come to their aid if attacked by China as China has signed with Pakistan. This will ensure a very strong biz boost to India with downfall of chinese investments in These areas. BUT WHO WILL DO IT?

 

[DivineHeretic]

I never asked India to not accept hand of friendship with ASEAN states, least of all because they are poor or weak. My contention is that We do not confuse friends for allies. A clear seperation exists between the two.

Military doctrines are created taking into account own capabilities and that of your allies, not that of your friends. We have a shining example of generals confusing friends for allies, and finding his country thrown to dogs in 1971. We do not want such a fate, do we?

Arthashastra too identifies this distinction. As for your plan of signing a military pact with ASEAN, by all means do so. Just make sure that you know exactly what you are getting into and what is our capability to deliver and what will be expected of us. Then again, what we get from this pact. Everything must be weighted carefully before such a step.

International diplomacy is not for emotional people, everything follows cold hard logic. Sentiments have no meaning, no value and no place. Can you be sure that we can match Chinese investments on the same scale? Or that these countries will not cower under Chinese pressure?

 

[sayareakd]

wont mind arming Vietnam with nuke or stationing our missile or BMD in Vietnam against China.

 

[Bheeshma]

I would start with Brahmos, Prithvi and even Agni-I.

 

[t_co]

I would start with Brahmos, Prithvi and even Agni-I.

Remember when the US put missiles in Turkey? The Soviets responded by putting missiles in Cuba... missiles that did not go away until the US missiles in Turkey were removed. If India puts its 60 or 100 Agnis in Vietnam, what's to prevent China from putting some of its 1000+ DF-21s in Kashmir, and aiming them at New Delhi, less than 600km away? It would essentially forever nullify any ability for India to retaliate militarily against Pakistan, because then an Indian attack on Pakistan could be construed as an attack on China's nuclear arsenal, which would invite a nuclear response under China's NFU doctrine.

 

[no smoking]

We can defeat china economically by announcing a military pact with SCS nations as part of strategic alliance in which India will come to their aid if attacked by China as China has signed with Pakistan. This will ensure a very strong biz boost to India with downfall of chinese investments in These areas. BUT WHO WILL DO IT?

Maybe after you got at least 7 super aircraft carriers!
Currently, indian navy's appearance in South China Sea is a political symbol rather a military force!

 

[LETHALFORCE]

A single man can change the fortunes in a war. Remember Longeywal? Never ever shun a hand extended for friendship even if from a very poor and incapable. Such people make the difference. Pls read arthshastra, This whole gamut of relationships between nations is based on battle doctrines only. We can defeat china economically by announcing a military pact with SCS nations as part of strategic alliance in which India will come to their aid if attacked by China as China has signed with Pakistan. This will ensure a very strong biz boost to India with downfall of chinese investments in These areas. BUT WHO WILL DO IT?

This is one of the best ideas I have read in our forum, brilliant.

 

[tharikiran]

This is one of the best ideas I have read on this forum as well. Not to say that it's a good idea or anything, just a terrible forum

Then what the f***are you doing here.

 

[Bhadra]

@Bhadra if you think next war with Chini will be same as 1962, you are grossly mistaken. This time it will short war of missiles and who so ever has upper hand in tech and quantity will win it.

We lack long range cruise missiles and China has almost everything in quantity. Plus they have Pak to create trouble for us.

True ... short intense and techology driven war as stated by the Chinese doctrines...

But that does not mean missile war only. That does not preclude the dominant role that will be played by land forces. It rather places more emphasis on human component since there would not be chances to recover, lauch counter attacks and rebalace yourselves as no one will be able to sustain the intensity of military campaigns for longer period. Whatever one has to achieve ahs to be in a short period of time.

It therefore follows that the land, Air and Naval Forces will be always are at higher state of preparedness and alert, ready to respond at no notice or very less notice. The technological adanateges would play a key role but not the only role.

India and China are not going to indulge into Iran Iraq type bashing for year long. Missile attacks without ground forces operations have no meaning. Even nuclear attacks without ground forces operations will yield nothing. That would be only a final form of threat towards detterence.

One is unlikely to be attacked with nuclear weapons in a short intense technology driven conflicts (they do not call those as wars) !

 

[DivineHeretic]

True ... short intense and techology driven war as stated by the Chinese doctrines...

But that does not mean missile war only. That does not preclude the dominant role that will be played by land forces. It rather places more emphasis on human component since there would not be chances to recover, lauch counter attacks and rebalace yourselves as no one will be able to sustain the intensity of military campaigns for longer period. Whatever one has to achieve ahs to be in a short period of time.

It therefore follows that the land, Air and Naval Forces will be always are at higher state of preparedness and alert, ready to respond at no notice or very less notice. The technological adanateges would play a key role but not the only role.

India and China are not going to indulge into Iran Iraq type bashing for year long. Missile attacks without ground forces operations have no meaning. Even nuclear attacks without ground forces operations will yield nothing. That would be only a final form of threat towards detterence.

One is unlikely to be attacked with nuclear weapons in a short intense technology driven conflicts (they do not call those as wars) !

Absolutely true.
If I may add further, the Chinese will have clear territorial objectives if they attack the next time.
The next conflict will not be the same as in 1962 and they will not get a walkover. There will be significant casualties on both sides. This reality alone should make it clear that the Chinese will not accept such losses just to teach India a lesson. They will most definately attempt to occupy and annex territory.

My understanding, and that of several retired colonels who have served in NE is that the most likely target would be Tawang and its buddhist monastery rather than the whole of Arunachal Pradesh. It is rather easily positioned for Chinese invasion compared to the rest of AP. This will help crush the tibetean resistance and break the support of the institution of Dalai Lama as well as the Tibetean Govt. In exile

But we can also expect attempts near the Indo-Bhutan-China trijunction. There exists a clear tactical disadvantage for the Chinese with Indian troops in Bhutan holding clear high ground. Infact Chinese artillery positions and supply routes can be spotted easily, enabling counter battey fire. Vhina has recently demanded Bhutan hand over this part of territory.

 

[DivineHeretic]

Remember when the US put missiles in Turkey? The Soviets responded by putting missiles in Cuba... missiles that did not go away until the US missiles in Turkey were removed. If India puts its 60 or 100 Agnis in Vietnam, what's to prevent China from putting some of its 1000+ DF-21s in Kashmir, and aiming them at New Delhi, less than 600km away? It would essentially forever nullify any ability for India to retaliate militarily against Pakistan, because then an Indian attack on Pakistan could be construed as an attack on China's nuclear arsenal, which would invite a nuclear response under China's NFU doctrine.

It is very unlikely that India would overtly hand over let alone station BMs in Vietnam or SCS without Chinese provocation first.

However, if the recent rumours of Chinese troops in POK are true, this changes the whole ground reality. The presence of Chinese troops in our territory is unacceptable.
This will be countered strategically, albeit covertly. If you needle us relentlessly on Kashmir, We will retaliate in SCS or in Tibet. The 10,000 odd SFF isnt created for police duty. I hope you realise the implication of unleashing such a force.

Then there is the question of Chinese presence in IOR. If ypu setup a naval base here, our entry into SCS is fair game. How we do it is our perrogative. Many ways exist. Supplying weapons knowhow, stationing military advisors, Sub patrols etc. I imagine the US, Japan, ASEAN would very happy if India makes strategic moves into SCS.

 

[sayareakd]

Remember when the US put missiles in Turkey? The Soviets responded by putting missiles in Cuba... missiles that did not go away until the US missiles in Turkey were removed. If India puts its 60 or 100 Agnis in Vietnam, what's to prevent China from putting some of its 1000+ DF-21s in Kashmir, and aiming them at New Delhi, less than 600km away? It would essentially forever nullify any ability for India to retaliate militarily against Pakistan, because then an Indian attack on Pakistan could be construed as an attack on China's nuclear arsenal, which would invite a nuclear response under China's NFU doctrine.

you guys have already done the above, just in small numbers, so we will copy the same for other anti China countries

 

[Vishwarupa]

Considering Chinese atrocities against its own citizen & country men(no freedom of press, cracking on religious moments, common man being neglected, one child policy) will they not support India indirectly by creating unrest in china. how motivated will PLA be during the war time considering all the atrocities done by CCP & what about Tibetans who wants to secede from china will they make any difference during any conflict.

 

[badguy2000]

You are partly wrong. We indeed are short of Chinese in terms of logistics. But there are certain advantages we yield, even today.

The Chinese have upwards of 200,000 infantry stationed in Tibet as against around 100,000 of ours stationed in NE. Then we have an armored brigade stationed in Ladakh alongwith some infantry formations. To add to this will be the new Strike corps based in Panagarh, taking the number up by 40-60,000. Mountain warfare calls for a minimum ratio of 1:10 and preferably 1:15 for the attackers. China is unlikely to generate this ratio unless it moves its formations from the Eastern seaboard, an impossibility.

Now the Chinese have far better logistics on their side, as compared to ours, enabling them to move in 30 divisions in 24 hours. Here again lies another hidden problem for the PLA. They can very well move in their army like the flood, but how do they supply them. It is a given that the first attack by our missiles and strike aitcraft will be against logistics lines and ammunition and fuel dumps. Without supplies even a milkion men army grinds to a halt, let alone in a arid desert of snow and ice.

We dont have similar road network, but we have a vey long and established record of maintaining bases and forward troops by air supply. The PLAAF has in its inventory some 80 cargo/transport aircraft as against 256 of ours. And our number is slated to rise, alongwith the airlift ability in terms of payload. This is not something that can be wished away by PLA planners.

In simple terms, neither side can walk onto the other territory. The Chinese cant storm in, and we most certainly cant invade them.

Almost all ur data on pla in tibet are wrong. Pla has only 3 brigades in tibet,which are less than 30000soldiers.

 

[JBH22]

Cold Start Doctrine against China is this a joke.

Where is the artillery,mechanised infantry or even dedicated CAS support?