Cold start and use of Air power against artillery

[Yusuf]

Over the last few years many in the western world have argued that india is not well equipped to implement the cold start doctrine esp due to lack of big guns and no purchase of it since Bofors.

I have a feeling that IA probably does not need towed guns like Bofors to implement cold start and in fact it could be a liability in the field.

Cold start doctrine calls for rapid push into enemy territory and we don't have to lay a siege for it using those guns. We need to finish our major campaign in the first 72 hours after which it is going to be a case of holding and consolidating before the world powers bring both sides to the table.

This is where Indias air power will be used. Air superiority to be established using MKIs and ground targets to be destroyed by Mirage and also extensive use of helicopter gun ships. Use of MLRS which presents more mobility would also serve better. Tanks are the symbol of occupation and india has a lot of it though some of them may be aging, but they still are capable and will provide rapid thrust in tandem with massive use of aerial power.

The current exercise in Rajasthan is probably validating just that.

 

[Iamanidiot]

I think they may use only air power only wouldn't artillery be a liability when moving artillery on battle field.But,what for all the guns are being purchsed for?

 

[sayareakd]

yusuf we need these

to go along with our armour so that we can take out enemy guns on move and tanks and enemy defenses. MRLS are expensive options plus these modern guns have option of multiple round simultaneous impact (MRSI), which not only effectively take out target but also bring down the moral of enemy.

so guns are needed.

 

[JBH22]

Artillery is the god of war if you don't have then prepare yourself for a war of attrition not a war of maneuver..
India in 1965 war behind Pakistan in artillery we suffered back then again in 1999 kargil war Bofors came from Indian strike divisions had this sh!t blown out in full scale war we would have suffered much more.

I don't think its only the politicians who are to be blamed IA leadership is equally responsible for this fiasco i bet if any general came out in a public conference and said that we are in deep mess vis a vis artillery no politician would have dared to contradict them.

 

[p2prada]

Artillery is very important in order to have a functioning doctrine. We don't have the NLOS IFV plans like US with their BCT program. But we do have the need for howitzers at the very least along with helicopter transportable guns.

 

[nitesh]

Correct me if I am wrong here

Isn't for cold war we will be needing Smerch and Pinakas in large numbers to clear the areas, also they can act as counter artillery fire. I think the concentration is moved towards the MBRL's and heli gunships. But these can not replace the big guns. But I think as of now concentration is towards the MBRL's and the heli gunships. Guns will come, it is just the concentration is towards other areas.

Mean while we should not forget the project "Shakti' which increase effectiveness of artillery fire many folds.

 

[Yusuf]

I think they may use only air power only wouldn't artillery be a liability when moving artillery on battle field.But,what for all the guns are being purchsed for?

For good old style warfare. If at all another Kargil happens and we need to kill roaches.
To put them on the Chinese front.

Cold start does not require Bofors is my thinking. We are not going to be pounding Lahore into submission. The aim is to make quick gains. I don't see guns fitting into the picture and that is why you don't see the army crib too much about the lack of guns. Pinaka and Smerch are more important for me. That along with gunships and air superiority is what will constitute a cold start push.

 

[Yusuf]

JB,
Howitzers are required when there is a war of attrition which cold start is not. I am not saying we don't need howitzers at all, but as far as cold start goes we don't need them. We are not going to be pounding cities for weeks. Cold start is going to last a week after india makes shallow gains along the international border. At best I see the use of guns as a line of defense well within our borders in case the enemy sneaks in from some small place. For a blitz, we need air power and on the ground we need MLRS.

 

[nrj]

I agree with Nitesh.

There was lot of buzz last year to procure Pinaka in massive numbers, not sure whats happening on that front. Israelis helped in trajectory correction & CEP.

Guns will come out. At what pace, is really the question IA & south block should ask each other.

 

[nitesh]

I agree with Nitesh.

There was lot of buzz last year to procure Pinaka in massive numbers, not sure whats happening on that front. Israelis helped in trajectory correction & CEP.

Guns will come out. At what pace, is really the question IA & south block should ask each other.

Check the DRDO thread, there is mention of OFB increasing capacity to augment number of Pinaka rockets production, the steps are getting taken in right direction

added later: post 762

http://defenceforumindia.com/strate...ew-defence-procurement-policy-release-51.html

 

[pankaj nema]

Cold start is basd on the massive use of artillerry and Air power
Both MBRL Pinakas Smerch BM21 Grad and Tube artilerry are required

The more the better

The fact that is that deep maneuvers with armour and mechanised infantry are a threat to Pakistan's existence and hence the importance of arty has increased in the Cold start doctrine

Armour manuevers being practiced in the Current exercise are for destroying the enemies armour and other ICV and degrading its fighting capability

 

[pankaj nema]

The Cold start doctrine is NOT about cutting deep into pakistan and cutting Pakistan in two as was the Sundarji doctrine

It is not about territory

It is about causing maximum destruction of PA and PAF assets as well as other military targets in the smallest possible time

Therfore there will be 8 or 10 IBG Integrated Battle groups launched around multiple axis so that PA is forced to bring its Strike corps in the battle which will then be an high intensity battle of attrition

 

[Yusuf]

I wonder how many of the exercises held in recent years has used howitzers extensively including one of the biggest exercise Ashwamedh. All of these exercises stressed on Air and tank warfare.

 

[JBH22]

JB,
Howitzers are required when there is a war of attrition which cold start is not. I am not saying we don't need howitzers at all, but as far as cold start goes we don't need them. We are not going to be pounding cities for weeks. Cold start is going to last a week after india makes shallow gains along the international border. At best I see the use of guns as a line of defense well within our borders in case the enemy sneaks in from some small place. For a blitz, we need air power and on the ground we need MLRS.

By artillery we are not restricting it to towed guns but this include SPG and MRBL which will pound enemy defenses along side tanks. Besides what will cold start be worth without mechanised infantry will army jawans accompany tanks to the battlefield in trucks this is quite ridiculous atleast a decent IFV or APC is needed to keep up with the T-90 plus the MIG-27 which is IAF prime ground attack aircraft inspite of its upgrade it is somehow worthless.

 

[sayareakd]

i have question with this cold start how much pakistani land we want to cover since Pakistani length is less then 400 km from our border and all most all towns are within 250 km from our border.

100 km inside their territory from 8 sides would be enough for them if we move more then it will tempt to use nukes against us.

 

[Yusuf]

i have question with this cold start how much pakistani land we want to cover since Pakistani length is less then 400 km from our border and all most all towns are within 250 km from our border.

100 km inside their territory from 8 sides would be enough for them if we move more then it will tempt to use nukes against us.

I think that would be classified as the army just talks of shallow gains. May be 25-50 kms along the stretch of the border along with severe degradation of war making capacity. Even that has to be below their nuke threshold which says any major destruction of their army will lead to nuke strikes.

JB,

Yes arty has all that, but I have been particularly talking about howitzers. I think cold start will not employ howitzers.

 

[sayareakd]

Yusuf unless we get 1/4 of pakistani land and hold it, that will send correct massage to pakistan, for that we have to go 100 km inside from 6-8 directions, that does not mean that we should take their towns which will be heavily fortified and going inside will be plain stupid. plus fall of major town would means crossing pakistani line of nuclear threshold .

BTW if that happens Pakistan too like to move down its nuclear threshold fearing humiliation from its own public and breakdown of country.

 

[Yusuf]

Advancing 100kms inside pak within 72 hours is not possible. We share a 3000km long border. 25kms inside will mean we hold 75,000sqkms of Pak. That's about the size of PoK (Kashmir+Gilgit Baltistan ).

We can then take it to the table.

 

[civfanatic]

Strike Corps/IBGs on the Western border don't need towed arty, but our holding/pivot corps do.

The IBGs are badly in need of SP arty.

 

[JBH22]

What happens to Pakistani perspective that they'll use nuclear weapons in case of substantial loss of territory the best thing would be to hold strategic choke-points and never give it up.do not repeat Haji pir pass mistakes..