Chinese Troops Intrude into Indian Territory in Ladakh!!!

what options India have if china doesn't pull back from ladakh?


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tramp

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Let us not get emotional. Emotions do not win wars.... maybe a battle here or one there...but not wars. Wars are won on cool heads that facilitate good planning.
China acts to a plan for sure. To test India's resolve, may be.
But more likely the reason lies to our west.
Pakistan is on the boil. An uncertain election in a few weeks. The outcome going to be very very uncertain as no strong mandates are expected. Kabul does not seem to be headed the way PA wants it to go. Therefore, PA wants a handle to silence critics back home. Musharraf is turning out to be a big mischief. They cannot let him be hauled over coal... small humiliations apart. And rescuing him is going to be hugely unpopular for the army, but Kiyani must.
So they might be planning to warm up the Kashmir pot further. That is where we will need to be firm with Chinese but not get into something big on that border right away.
 

Ray

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Should India's response to China's incursion be more aggressive?

[video]http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/fromndtv/272185[/video]

Listen to Ajai Shukla on the video.

Logic, thy name is Shukla!
 

Ray

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Sourcing Praveen Swami's Story


I apologise for the unusual format of this post – rather than make [x/n] chirps on twitter, I thought it best to put my thoughts in a short post. These thoughts, for whatever they are worth, are as yet incomplete and may remain so until someone has more data. Nonetheless, I insist on working from data as much as possible and not on speculation.

Many readers will be aware of the two chirps I made yesterday about my emails to UNMOGIP. Basically, upon reading Praveen Swami's article in The Hindu, I was curious about the documents he mentioned. My curiosity was more motivated by my research habits of verifying sources than any disagreement I had with Swami's article. To be clear, let me state again that I accept what Swami wrote to be close to the truth. Unlike those offended by the article, I do not think that the events show the Indian Army in a bad light. Having studied conflicts over centuries, one accepts that tragedies occur when people with weapons under a lot of stress are put in extreme environments.

This is not to impose an equality between India and Pakistan – the latter has acquired an international reputation for aiding and abetting terrorists while the former, us guys, may have problems but do not indulge in such activities. It is also incredibly obtuse to think that one side would not give as good as it gets, no matter what the orders are from HQ – unit cohesion would not last the week otherwise.





Anyway, to return to my investigation about Swami's sources, the response from UNMOGIP-Delhi made me suspicious about the existence in the public domain of these "classified" documents. If they were classified, how had Swami obtained access to them? So as advised by Delhi, I emailed the UN Headquarters in New York. I was informed that any declassified documents they held would be available in their online database, and it seems to be true, given that the latest document listed there is from January 18, 2013.

By the way, the UN seems to follow a 20-year rule on declassification"¦just in case you missed my old article. In any case, I received a helpful email explaining how to use the database and narrow my search from an initial 3,980 documents to 560 at the last pass. Here are my findings so far:

Swami is indeed right that the Pakistanis complained to UNMOGIP about the massacre of 22 civilians at Seri, Bandala, on April 26-27, 1998. However, though the report mentions mutilation of bodies by daggers and the presence of notes (as well as Indian ammunition casings and an Indian-made watch), it does not carry gory details Swami mentions such as decapitation or the gouging out of eyes. Neither is there any mention of a note asking, "How does your own blood feel?"
In the Nadala enclave incident, the Pakistani complaint to UNMOGIP of January 24, 2000, was quite sparse. There is no evidence presented, and the only mention is of two dead and five missing Pakistani soldiers from the alleged company-sized attack with mortars and "recoilless rifle bunker-busting fire." There is no mention of Pakistani soldiers being tied up and dragged across a ravine. In fact, the report looks like a regular instance of cross-border firing and little else.
Nothing was found on the other events mentioned – Bhimber Gali on September 18, 2003, Bhattal on June 19, 2008, or Sharda on August 30, 2011.
Is it possible that I missed some documents? Absolutely. However, given how broad my search terms were – "UNMOGIP," "Kashmir," "Pakistan AND India" – that seems unlikely. Furthermore, I searched not only for reports from the Pakistani delegation to the UN but also an entity called the Jammu & Kashmir Council for Human Rights, Amnesty International, and others. This means that at least part of Swami's story comes from sources other than UN documents or that he had access to documents that have not yet been declassified. Even on the 1998 Bandala incident where his story lines up most, the UNMOGIP report has been embellished with external material.

By the way, complaints are, by definition, one-sided. Even if Swami produces all the documentation he has cited, it does not prove the Indian Army's guilt but merely merits an investigation from the Indian side. It is not the media's job to adjudicate on guilt, something they seem to forget quite often.

I fully understand that newspaper articles are not peer-reviewed academic pieces and have different evidentiary standards, but it should not be this difficult to track down the sources of a story if one is so inclined. Journalists frequently make use of their privileged access to people in power, but that is a double-edged sword – you may as easily be a propaganda mouthpiece as the journaliste du jour. It is also, in my opinion, good research ethics to explain the nature of one's sources.

I am told that Swami has blocked people on twitter for asking him about his sources (RTing to him my two chirps) and I understand not wanting to be inundated with requests for information, especially when the matter puts one in an awkward light. However, given the sensitivity of the piece and the reaction it has provoked, the responsible thing to do would have been for The Hindu, Swami's employer and the tabloid that carried the story, to put up links to these alleged documents – documents are not people and need not be protected in the same way journalists protect their human sources. Swami could also have been clearer about the sources of the extraneous details he added.

If these documents are indeed classified and we have to accept the author at his word – which is fine – this whole fancy article based on "classified documents" can also be rewritten as "Sources say"¦" The latter seems, to me, a little more honest in that it does not even hold the slightest hope that the information can be verified, whereas "classified documents" implies that they might be available somewhere and have just been or are about to be declassified.

As was pointed out to me yesterday on twitter, "classified documents" can also mean a leak. This raises questions about how selectively documents were leaked, who these leaks were, and what their motivations for such a revelation were, that too when Indians were just beginning to forget the LoC decapitation of two Indian soldiers.

In conclusion, I can only say that, at present, the documentation on the Swami story is at best a mixed bag. I'd appreciate any assistance in deciphering this mess – from The Hindu, Swami himself, UNMOGIP, or especially a more persevering researcher. By the way, I have a classified document that appoints me as the head of the Indian Atomic Energy Commission"¦will the office send a car to pick me up?

Sourcing Praveen Swami’s Story
 

drkrn

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guys guys all of you people cool down.
at this terrain getting into others territory is usual as you do not have any permanent markings on the places,civilian towns etc.its easy to get lost here

even Indian army during its patrols too get into china occupied Kashmir some times.i spoke with an old military person,he said they were lost almost 40kms deep into Chinese territory and thankfully they were not even identified.had they been identified they will be killed


the only thing that bothers me here is Chinese troops are not at all afraid to raise their camps deep in our territory while our politicians only make statements
 

Mariner HK

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India moves infantry regiment to Ladakh to counter Chinese incursion

Zee Media Bureau | Zee News
NEW DELHI/SRINAGAR, India, 23 April 2013
Days after reports surfaced that the Chinese troops had intruded 10 kilometres deep inside Indian territory in Ladakh and set up a tented post there, the Indian Army has moved in more troops in the region.

A leading English daily on Tuesday reported that an infantry regiment of the Army specialising in mountain warfare has been sent to Daulat Beg Oldi (DBO) sector in Ladakh.



The Indo-Tibetan Border Police (ITBP) is also reported to have erected a tent post near the one set up by the Chinese troops, who are reported to have intruded inside the Indian territory on 15 April.

While the government has sought not to play up the issue in public, insiders say the leadership is worried as situation is tense.

India moves infantry regiment to Ladakh to counter Chinese incursion .:. Tibet Sun
This is not the first time that Chinese troops have come deep inside the Indian territory. Such intrusions have taken place in the past too, across the Line of Actual Control (LAC).

A second flag meeting between local military commanders of the two countries on the latest incident is scheduled for today.

Also today, Army Chief General Bikram Singh is beginning his two-day visit of Jammu and Kashmir.

India had raised the issue with China last week immediately after the incident of Chinese incursion came to light.

Apart from summoning the Chinese Ambassador to South Block, the Joint Secretary in MEA, who is heading the India-China joint working mechanism to deal with issues on the boundary from the Indian side, spoke to his counterpart in Beijing last week, emphasising on the need to resolve the issue.

Foreign Secretary Ranjan Mathai had summoned the Chinese Ambassador Wei Wei to South Block and stressed the need for resolving the issue, sources said.

The Chinese side said they will look into the issue and respond accordingly.

However, when contacted the Chinese Embassy in New Delhi reiterated the comments made by their Foreign Ministry spokesperson in Beijing yesterday.

Chinese Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Hua Chunying had said yesterday that "China's frontier troops have been abiding by the agreement between the two countries and abiding by the LAC agreed by the two countries.

"Our frontier troops have been patrolling on the China's side of LAC," Hua had said, adding, "Our troops are patrolling on the Chinese side of the LAC and have never trespassed the line".

Chinese Embassy officials maintained that China is ready to work with the Indian side to further the coordination and cooperation on the issues of boundary.

Defence Minister AK Antony had said yesterday that India will take "every step" to protect its interests to resolve the situation arising out of the incursion.
 

Ray

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Re: India moves infantry regiment to Ladakh to counter Chinese incursi

It is time to call the Chinese bluff!

One infantry battalion is not worth the effort!
 

shom

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No that is shamefull
Now here is Kalapani,,, hey How are you mate ,,, saw you after a decade,,, and yeah it is shameful and our congress bullshits:bs: are blamed for this.... please show some respect to our armed forces ,,, idiot politicians,,,,
 

Blackwater

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Now here is Kalapani,,, hey How are you mate ,,, saw you after a decade,,, and yeah it is shameful and our congress bullshits:bs: are blamed for this.... please show some respect to our armed forces ,,, idiot politicians,,,,
Here comes SHOM SHOM SHAMO SHASHA.good to see you after centuries.:cool2::cool2:

well i never Question our forces abilities but i Question our slow defense procurement process and abilities of dhoti walas in parliament.:sad::sad:

Its not Question of UPA but NDA too,Remembered kargil happened during NDA:wave::wave:
 

shom

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Here comes SHOM SHOM SHAMO SHASHA.good to see you after centuries.:cool2::cool2:

well i never Question our forces abilities but i Question our slow defense procurement process and abilities of dhoti walas in parliament.:sad::sad:

Its not Question of UPA but NDA too,Remembered kargil happened during NDA:wave::wave:
Oye I never said a word to you ,,, that part was for our congress,,, and during NDA we fought,,, had it been now we would have given siachen,,,,
 

Blackwater

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Oye I never said a word to you ,,, that part was for our congress,,, and during NDA we fought,,, had it been now we would have given siachen,,,,
oye oye dil pe mat le yaar. my point is either UPA or NDA all r same. its about mindset
 

Bhadra

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yeh 10km is too much into space of India...

but funny thing is
Troops from Indo-Tibetan Border Police(ITBP) have also established a camp approximately 300 metres opposite the location, the sources said.

Smart guys ...Effective Rifle range

I say push them back or the two posts will become permanent
 

Bhadra

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Re: India moves infantry regiment to Ladakh to counter Chinese incursi

[=Ray;719699]It is time to call the Chinese bluff!

Really. Have the Chinese been bluffing. If yes it works man.

One infantry battalion is not worth the effort!
When did one ask for / cater for the more ??
 
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