Chinese Naval strategy against India

Trinetra

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2017
Messages
260
Likes
552
Country flag
The launch of China’s second aircraft carrier, expected as soon as this week, will be an important and depressing moment for India.

The “Type 001A” -- likely to be named the “Shandong” -- will give China an edge for the first time in the carrier race with its Asian rival, a literal two-to-one advantage. After decommissioning the INS Viraat earlier this year, the Indian Navy is down to a single carrier, INS Vikramaditya. Worse, the Shandong has been built at China’s own giant shipyard at Dalian; Vikramaditya is merely a repurposed 1980s-era Russian carrier formerly known as the Admiral Gorshkov.

Even more telling than the raw numbers is what China’s progress says about India’s ability to provide security in its own backyard. Chinese naval strategists have open designs on the Indian Ocean: According to one, “China needs two carrier strike groups in the West Pacific Ocean and two in the Indian Ocean.”

The government of Prime Minister Narendra Modi has talked a great deal about revitalizing the Indian military; it’s opened the defense sector up to greater foreign investment and is building a much-closer relationship with the US military, largely with China in mind. But spending has lagged. Worse, successive governments simply don’t seem to have thought through where best to direct those scarce resources.

For its part, the Indian Navy has gone all-in on a strategy that emphasizes carrier battle groups. The idea is that India must dominate the ocean that bears its name and needs carriers in order to project power well beyond its shores. As a result, it wasted far too much time and treasure on the Admiral Gorshkov, which arrived from Russia six years late and at three times the cost that had initially been promised.

Its efforts to develop a homegrown carrier have been even more misbegotten. The Navy plans to name, commission and float the INS Vikrant next year. At that point, the ship reportedly won’t have its aviation complex in place, or even anti-aircraft missiles. The Navy has puzzlingly refused to buy India’s indigenous light fighter, the Tejas, saying it’s too heavy. Meanwhile, the MiG-29s being used instead are enormously troubled, according to India’s government auditor; more than 60 percent of their engines were withdrawn from service or rejected in just four years. The Vikrant will only be properly combat-ready by 2023 -- eight years behind schedule.

No one would expect India to match China’s defense spending head-to-head. China’s economy is four times the size of India’s; not surprisingly, its defense budget is at least three times larger. But the People’s Republic faces a parallel dilemma when confronting the US, whose military budget is about three times as big as China's.

China has approached this disparity with a much clearer strategy in mind, as well as a far more rational evaluation of its relative strength. Rather than focusing on matching America’s carrier fleet, China first emphasized asymmetric weaponry such as ballistic missiles and submarines, a reflection of the Soviets’ successful Cold War strategy. Only now -- as its interests and capabilities have grown -- is it pouring resources into developing carrier groups.

By contrast, India’s carrier-first strategy has drained the Navy of resources and left it with just 13 conventional submarines in service. Eleven of those are more than a quarter-century old. The two new ones, amazingly, were commissioned and sent out to wander the deep sea without their main armament, torpedoes. Nor has India tried to counter China’s numerical superiority -- 70 to 15 -- in terms of submarines with specialized anti-submarine weaponry, including helicopters.The India Fleet has less than 30 superannuated medium-sized anti-sub helicopters, the first of which was bought in 1971.

India’s problem isn’t ultimately a shortage of money; it’s a lack of forethought and political courage. Carriers are big and showy, and bolster national pride; diesel submarines don’t, or at least not to the same degree. A more rational strategy for India -- and its peers in Asia and the Pacific Rim who fear China’s growing military might -- would ensure that India’s submarine fleet and its anti-submarine armaments are capable enough on their own to deter attempts to control the Indian Ocean, while closer ties with other navies fill in the gaps.

That would require a clear-eyed appraisal of India’s defense and economic capabilities and requirements -- a problem when India doesn’t have an outline of its strategy on the lines of American or Chinese white papers, nor even a full-time defense minister. The Navy is fortunately starting to train more closely with the U.S. and other partners such as Japan, which should increase its effectiveness. But until it thinks harder about where its money should go, it’s going to have a tricky time keeping China out of its backyard.
 

aditya10r

Mera Bharat mahan
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2016
Messages
5,718
Likes
11,618
Country flag
Yellow journalism at its best ..
Sir,will chinese ever deploy their aircraft carrier in IOR once they have 5-6 aircraft carriers(as per heir plan)to keep India and USA in check?????????/
 

aditya10r

Mera Bharat mahan
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2016
Messages
5,718
Likes
11,618
Country flag
Yellow journalism at its best ..
Sir,will chinese ever deploy their aircraft carrier in IOR once they have 5-6 aircraft carriers(as per heir plan)to keep india and usa in check????????????

I strictly believe yes..............
They might setup a sub base too
 

Kunal Biswas

Member of the Year 2011
Ambassador
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
31,122
Likes
41,042
As long as Andamans stands there is no effective way to deploy their carriers at IOR, It would be strategic blunder to deploy them and expose them to IAF, Andman sea is the frontier of such an conflict, Any where else is under nose of Americans ..

Having tools does not make someone expert, It takes experience and understanding to use it, PLAN has none ..
 

aditya10r

Mera Bharat mahan
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2016
Messages
5,718
Likes
11,618
Country flag
As long as Andamans stands there is no effective way to deploy their carriers at IOR, It would be strategic blunder to deploy them and expose them to IAF, Andman sea is the frontier of such an conflict, Any where else is under nose of Americans ..

Having tools does not make someone expert, It takes experience and understanding to use it, PLAN has none ..
How good are our coastal defense systems and under sea tracking??????????
Dont know much about coastal defenses but under sea tracking capabilities seems pretty good to me,thanks to p8i's and induction of attack subs
 

Srinivas_K

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2009
Messages
7,420
Likes
12,945
Country flag
Sir,will chinese ever deploy their aircraft carrier in IOR once they have 5-6 aircraft carriers(as per heir plan)to keep india and usa in check????????????

I strictly believe yes..............
They might setup a sub base too
India has islands spread all over IOR, India only needs to populate and build bases there.

Once that is done , Chinese will find Indians every where from malacca to suez .

Chinese are more worried about Indian aircraft carrier in Pacific Ocean. Reason for the rants.

India also has plans for 5 to 6 aircraft carriers.
 

Kunal Biswas

Member of the Year 2011
Ambassador
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
31,122
Likes
41,042






Sea tracking is mostly based on static installations, P8I and Subs are kill measures ..

Andamans is also in the list and not shown in map above ..

Dont know much about coastal defenses but under sea tracking capabilities seems pretty good to me,thanks to p8i's and induction of attack subs
 

Trinetra

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2017
Messages
260
Likes
552
Country flag
How good are our coastal defense systems and under sea tracking??????????
Dont know much about coastal defenses but under sea tracking capabilities seems pretty good to me,thanks to p8i's and induction of attack subs
Coastal defense is also getting upgraded and getting top notch radars from Israel and US to protect indian coasts. Besides now coast guard is getting its rightly asked ships and getting much more attention by GOI.. All this after 26/11 attack..
 

Tarun Kumar

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2016
Messages
942
Likes
1,047
We need more subs than aircraft carriers. I mean how will chinese aircraft carriers impact India. They can carry airstrikes on us from distant land bases and we can stop it by building an excellent air defence network. We need thousands upon thousands of akash and akash NG and shorter range manpads.A strong submarine force is anyday better than aircraft carrier oriented force.
 

Srinivas_K

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2009
Messages
7,420
Likes
12,945
Country flag
We need more subs than aircraft carriers. I mean how will chinese aircraft carriers impact India. They can carry airstrikes on us from distant land bases and we can stop it by building an excellent air defence network. We need thousands upon thousands of akash and akash NG and shorter range manpads.A strong submarine force is anyday better than aircraft carrier oriented force.
A single K15 carrier killer will take care of their aircraft carrier.

India is also researching on hypersonic glide vehicle.
 

sorcerer

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2013
Messages
26,919
Likes
98,471
Country flag
The Chilling Story of How a Chinese Submarine's Diesel Engine Suffocated Its Crew


On April 25, 2003 the crew of a Chinese fishing boat noticed a strange sight—a periscope drifting listlessly above the surface of the water. The fishermen notified the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) which promptly dispatched two vessels to investigate.

At first the PLAN believed the contact to be an intruding submarine from South Korea or Japan. But when Chinese personnel finally recovered the apparent derelict they realized it was one of their own diesel-electric submarines, the Ming-class 361.



Do You Know What Happened On This Day?
1964

Jerrie Mock becomes the first woman to circumnavigate the world by air.

Apollo program: The ill-fated Apollo 13 spacecraft returns to Earth safely.

(This first appeared several years ago.)

When they boarded on April 26, they found all seventy personnel slumped dead at their stations.

Military commissioner and former president Jiang Zemin acknowledged the tragic incident on May 2, 2003, in a statement honoring the sacrifice of Chinese sailors lives and vaguely characterizing the cause as “mechanical failure.”

A month later, an inquiry by his commission resulted in the dismissal of both the commander and commissar of the North Sea Fleet, and the demotion or dismissal of six or eight more officers for “improper command and control.” Jiang and President Hu Jintao later reportedly visited the recovered submarine and met with the families of the deceased.

Recommended: Stealth vs. North Korea’s Air Defenses: Who Wins?

Recommended: America’s Battleships Went to War Against North Korea

Recommended: 5 Places World War III Could Start in 2018

The Chinese government is not disposed to transparency regarding its military accidents. For example, it does not release the results of its investigations into jet fighter crashes and it never publicly acknowledged earlier submarine accidents. At the time, some commentators expressed surprise that Beijing acknowledged the incident at all, and speculated it was obliquely related to contemporaneous criticism of Beijing’s attempts to downplay the SARS epidemic.

The Type 035 Ming-class submarine was an outdated second-generation design evolved from the lineage of the Soviet Romeo-class, in turn a Soviet development of the German Type XXI “Electric U-Boat” from World War II. The first two Type 035s were built in 1975 but remained easy to detect compared to contemporary American or Russian designs. Though China operated numerous diesel submarines, due to concerns over seaworthiness, they rarely ventured far beyond coastal waters in that era.

Nonetheless, Chinese shipyards continued to build updated Ming-class boats well into the 1990s. Submarine 361 was one of the later Type 035G Ming III models, which introduced the capability to engage opposing submerged submarines with guided torpedoes. Entering service in 1995, she and three sister ships numbered 359 through 362 formed the North Sea Fleet’s 12th Submarine Brigade based in Liaoning province. You can see them together in this photo.

361 had been deployed on a naval exercise in the Bohai Sea, the Yellow Sea gulf east of Beijing and Tianjing. Unusually, a senior naval officer, Commodore Cheng Fuming was aboard. In its last ship’s log on April 16, the submarine was practicing silent running while off the Changshang island, heading back to a base in Weihai, Shandong Province.

Because it was maintaining radio silence, the PLAN didn’t realize anything was amiss until ten days later. The method by which 361 was recovered after its presence was reported remains unclear. Several accounts imply the ship was submerged, but the fact that it was promptly towed back to port implies that it had surfaced.

The lack of clear official explanation has led to various theories over the years. The typical complement of a Type 035 submarine is fifty-five to fifty-seven personnel, but 361 had seventy on board. Officially these were trainers, but conditions would have been quite cramped. The presence of the additional personnel and the high-ranking Commodore Cheng leads to the general conclusion that 361 was not on a routine mission.

Indeed, some commentators speculated that the additional crew were observing tests of an experimental Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system which would have offered greater stealth and underwater endurance. As it happens, another Type 035G submarine, 308, was used to test an AIP drive, and Stirling AIP drives would soon equip the prolific Type 041 Yuan-class submarines which prowl the seas today.

Another theory is that leaks allowed seawater to mix with battery acid, forming deadly chlorine gas that poisoned the crew. The Hong Kong Sing Tao Daily claimed the submarine had embarked on a “dangerous” antisubmarine training, and that “human error” led it to nose-down uncontrollably, causing it to get stuck on the seafloor.

However, the most widely accepted explanation today was first published by the Hong Kong Wen Wei Po, a pro-Beijing newspaper: the crew was suffocated by the sub’s diesel engine.

A conventional diesel electric submarine uses an air-breathing diesel engine to charge up its batteries for underwater propulsion. This is usually done while surfaced—but a submarine attempting to remain undetected can also cruise submerged just below the surface and use a snorkel to sip air. The snorkel is designed to automatically seal up if the water level gets too high.

According to Wen Wei Po, 361 was running its diesel while snorkeling when high water caused the air intake valve to close—or the valve failed to open properly due to a malfunction. However, its diesel engine did not shut down as it should have in response. You can find what appears to be a translated version of the article here.

Apparently, the motor consumed most of the submarine’s air supply in just two minutes. The crew might have felt light headed and short of breath during the first minute, and would have begun losing consciousness in the second. The negative air pressure also made it impossible to open the hatches. A 2013 article by Reuters repeats this theory as well as mentioning the possibility that was exhaust was improperly vented back into the hull to fatal effect.

Any of these explanations would reflect serious failings in both crew training and mechanical performance.

The recent tragic loss of the Argentine submarine San Juan, the fire raging amongst moored Russian Kilo-class submarines at Vladivostok (a drill, Moscow claims), and the fortunately nonfatal but highly expensive flooding of the Indian nuclear-powered submarine Arihant highlight that despite being arguably the most fearsome weapon system on the planet, submarines remain dangerous to operate even when not engaged in a war. Even brief breakdowns in crew discipline or mechanical reliability can rapidly turn the stealthy underwater marauders into watery coffins.

Only high standards of maintenance, manufacturing and crew training can avert lethal peacetime disasters—standards which are difficult for many nations to afford, but which the PLA Navy likely aspires to it as it continues to expand and professionalize its forces at an extraordinary rate.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...rines-diesel-engine-suffocated-its-crew-52802
 

Willy3

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2018
Messages
1,463
Likes
4,469
Country flag
Did this really happened I remember discussion here that it was half - half chance.
Unkil and it's pet dogs exaggerating stuff.... trying to show asian and Russian technology in bad light....now where is their muahhh..f35???? Exploring Atlantis?
 

Armand2REP

CHINI EXPERT
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2009
Messages
13,811
Likes
6,734
Country flag
Dont know..various media floating different versions..
cant trust them media pigs!
All we know for a fact is that it was down for a year and the MoD refused to comment on the stories of her flooding. They never denied it which they usually do when something is fabricated.
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top