Chinese J-20 stealth aircraft can influence Indian Air Force MMRCA tender

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by LETHALFORCE, Jan 30, 2011.

  1. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2009
    Messages:
    20,519
    Likes Received:
    6,520
    http://frontierindia.net/chinese-j-20-stealth-aircraft-can-influence-indian-air-force-mmrca-tender

    The internet is full of videos and pictures of the Chinese J-20 aircraft that has a potential stealth design. In my view the concept is more of an Iranian stealth plane Shafaq, which is an attempt to marry low radar absorbing design with available electronics. In my opinion, Chinese will try to marry a low radar absorbing design J-20 with electronics developed for its J-10 aircraft. I expect it not to be a true blue stealth plane and may designate it as a 4.75 generation plane.

    There are two aspects of J-20. Looking at images, the plane has a low observable front and not so low observable rear. Irrespective if it is a ground attack or heavy interceptor, the head on engagement and detection may be a difficult proposition. With proliferation of the Beyond Visual range missiles, the possibility of a dog fight and the opportunity of getting behind J-20 will be remote. J-20 could possibly host future generation electronics testbed too. This makes the Chinese J-20 a possible game changer over Indian skies.

    India is expected to face some 2000 odd 4.5 gen fighter planes and equal number of advanced bomber / support planes from China and Pakistan. The Indian Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender is to address similar or inferior possible deployments in the region. J-20 could possibly alter the current definition of the MMRCA. Indian Air force already has a study in progress on possible impact of the Chinese J-20 over Indian skies.

    The MMRCA could be affected in terms of cost, design and avionics. On the design front, IAF may be forced to buy, possibly partially, a fighter with lowest RCS. On avionics part, IAF would look for even more powerful radars and detection techniques. IAF, like most air forces around the world believes in early and longer range. This in turn will affect the cost of the tender.

    In my opinion, the Eurofighter with its 15% metallic surface, Meteor and advertised avionics would be the best fit against the possible 4.75 generation J-20. Limited numbers could be acquired considering Chinese ability in delivering J-20 in short time period. The internally squabbling Eurofighter partners will have to speed up the development of a AESA radar or deliver it just in time the Chinese will be ready to field J-20′s in threatening numbers. India could also explore a composite airframe for SU-30 MKI, but, it is not a near term option. Rafale could be another potential candidate provided French make operational their mythical active cancellation.

    The MMRCA split may increase the aircraft type serving IAF, but, the threat is multi faceted. One other option could be India not splitting the MMRCA, but look at F-15 Stealth Eagle. But, the possibility is unlikely.
     
  2.  
  3. gogbot

    gogbot Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2009
    Messages:
    937
    Likes Received:
    116
    Well the authors analysis hardly hold any merit.
    As for the assertion that EuroFighter is best for the job , inaccurate.

    If we want an aircraft with the best chance against the J-20
    The F-18 with its powerful radar and EW suit is the best bet.

    However i prefer the Rafale for the selectee any day.
     
  4. Zebra

    Zebra Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2011
    Messages:
    6,006
    Likes Received:
    2,250
    Hi,
    IAF must think about their only one company deal for MMRCA because of current J-20 issues.
    Better split mrca -----SH + Gripens.

    As per Australian air force. They buy SH head-to head for Indonesia's new Su -30.

    J 20 is better air craft than Su 30. But untill IAF get PAK FGFA , SH will be there with Mki .
    Really can we trust Russians for time dead lines for PAK FGFA ? USSR was much more friendly with India than Russians .

    We will get our AMCA for sure . That will our mid size aircraft ( only- if size is that big issue ), another mid size which IAF MRCA ---go for bit smaller than mid and bit bigger than mid . SH + Gripen .

    Gripen little ones but nearly see first kill first aircraft , should not underestimate Gripen because of small size only ( may be any one heard elephant and ant story - just a little joke).

    I do not know why people go as per the size of aircraft.
    The company who make it they did it for some reason .
    Our moto should be----- does the aircraft solves our needs in cost effective way and does it reliable , proven product.
    SH , gripen does it. Both proven , reliable in war . Both got same engine . Both resaniably priced .
    Only problem is SH bit bigger and Gripen bit smaller .We can fix same weapons for both aircrafts .
    SH for China and Gripens for China and Pakistan .
    Does size effect really more then abilaty of aircraft ?
    I know all Six aircraft of MMRCA are good and well made . But think in that way ---- you have to pay from your pocket (!) which will you buy.

    (Looks bit funny . But in this way may be we can select right ones , better deal for ...... )
     
  5. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2009
    Messages:
    10,397
    Likes Received:
    2,314
    This blog overestimates the impact of the J-20. It is nothing more than a shell. No AESA, limited stealth characteristics, inferior weapons selection, huge size and under powered. Just another of CCP propaganda pieces.
     
  6. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2009
    Messages:
    4,957
    Likes Received:
    613
    I am a memeber of Chinese Onlooker Party.you will be sorrounded by CHinese Onlook Party soon.....
     
  7. redragon

    redragon Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2009
    Messages:
    928
    Likes Received:
    36
    Just like what you said, people believe what they willing to believe. I believe J-20 is more way advance than any French fighter anyday anywhere.
     
  8. Zebra

    Zebra Senior Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2011
    Messages:
    6,006
    Likes Received:
    2,250
    Hi,
    I will support Armand 2REP .
    J-20 is a new aircraft but can be counter with any 4++ gen fighter . No need for any JSF for J-20.
     
  9. SHASH2K2

    SHASH2K2 New Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2010
    Messages:
    5,711
    Likes Received:
    723
    Location:
    Bihar, BanGalore , India
    DO you have any technical logic to support your claim. Please prove how J20 is superior to Rafael.
     
  10. nrj

    nrj Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2009
    Messages:
    9,252
    Likes Received:
    3,347
    Location:
    Brussels
    Yeah let it influence MRCA selection.

    But for the love of lord, don't delay contract signing.
     
  11. SpArK

    SpArK SORCERER Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2010
    Messages:
    2,093
    Likes Received:
    1,104
    Location:
    KINGDOM OF TRAVANCORE
    DC, Dileep Chabria can design and make a cool aircraft model and say its the best. Nothing can be concluded unless we get the specifics regarding the technicals. Until then J-20 is just a mock up model for a few fanboys to cheer about.
     
  12. Pintu

    Pintu New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2009
    Messages:
    12,076
    Likes Received:
    327
    Armand is right in his one point, at the present structure J-20 is a shell, still more things to be proved, and more things needs to be upgraded, good that PRC has its basic design ready, but much more need to be done. I agree with nrj , no matter it affects MMRCA, but deal should be through quickly.

    Regards
     
  13. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2009
    Messages:
    10,397
    Likes Received:
    2,314
    I say that about spirituality, certainly not a matter for temporal facts. Fact 1) China still imports Russian PESA for J-10 2) still imports AL-31F engines 3) still uses AIM-9 clones 4) has yet to induct or sell its fake GPS bomb 5) made J-10 body too large for a fighter, especially without TVC 6) lumbers off the runway when empty and takes most of it to land 7) has large canards and surface area greatly increasing RCS characteristics.

    Things I know as fact, Rafale can fly circles around J-20, has far more advanced radar, jammers, optronics, passive TWR, missiles and bombs. Is battle proven for high tempo operations with superb bombing and recon capability. Proven in DACTS to be the best dogfighter in the world next to F-22. Has a production AESA that makes it more LO than anything J-20 will hope to be and production of Meteor BVRAAM which outclasses anything China will have for a long time.

    The facts point to France... our technology is superior in every way to xerox backwards China.
     
  14. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2009
    Messages:
    4,957
    Likes Received:
    613
    well CIA should have invited you as their top adviser,because you seems to have know about J20 better than Gates, the boss of USA MOD.

    Les chinois à Paris
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2011
  15. Tshering22

    Tshering22 Sikkimese Saber Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2010
    Messages:
    4,404
    Likes Received:
    2,782
    Location:
    Gangtok, Sikkim, India
    I don't think there is anything left to wait for at this rate. First the challenge was F-16s, then the Chinese Su-27s and Su-30s and now Chinese J-20. How many aircraft must we see being made and come into operation before we consider buying an older previous generation fighter? I don't know but I have given up on MRCA. The allotted money is probably in some politician's account by now and as always, the reason will never come out.
     
  16. Crusader53

    Crusader53 Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Messages:
    772
    Likes Received:
    34
    Location:
    Tampa, Florida
    Really, you can make a good case for the F-35. As its vastly more capable than any of the MMRCA Contenders plus its more than a match for the PLAAF J-20. Plus, considering the current world economy. The JSF Partnerswould likely sell it to India on very favorable terms.
     
  17. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2009
    Messages:
    10,397
    Likes Received:
    2,314
    No one can afford the F-35 in any numbers at $140 million.
     
  18. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2009
    Messages:
    4,957
    Likes Received:
    613
  19. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

    Joined:
    May 25, 2009
    Messages:
    10,233
    Likes Received:
    3,896
    Location:
    Holy Hell
    In the last few days, I have replied with a counter argument about everything you said. :)

    However, this is one place where I will agree with you. Only a few countries can afford it and that is possible only if they reduce their orders or eat a part of the health budget.

    The F-35B/C which India may go for is very expensive compared to an equivalent Rafale. However if the F-35 turns out to be far superior to the Rafale, SH etc, then I don't see why we would not go for it considering there is a limit to how many aircraft a ship can carry. Yes, we may pay the extra bucks for new capability.

    However the most immediate questions aren't costs. The most immediate questions are -

    Time scale of delivery - There is no way in hell IN will wait till 2020 for F-35 deliveries. We will need them by 2017-18 when IAC-2 will be in sea trials or commissioned, whichever comes first.

    ToT - You don't need me to tell you that. If you can hold back source codes from UK, you can do the same to us.

    After sales service - We don't doubt the servicing, we doubt the servicing and spares support that comes after the sanctions.

    False expectations - What if you say the F-35 is 400% better than legacy fighters and it turns out it cannot even beat the MKI in most scenarios?

    You see IAF, IA and IN are no longer looking at costs. ToT, delivery, spares support and exceeding expectations are what they are looking for. They will be your toughest customers and this is not going to change no matter how you put it. The very fact that Israel is developing weapons for us that they themselves are not able to induct due to costs is reason enough. Even Russia is not able to meet our requirements in many things anymore and the stuff they provide is already beyond what they can induct as well.
     
  20. Rage

    Rage DFI TEAM Stars and Ambassadors

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2009
    Messages:
    5,407
    Likes Received:
    967
    To add to everything prada said, I don't think the IAF would ever consider the F-35 even in the event of the J-20 influencing purchases (my guess is the T-50 is its ostensible counter). There are now some very serious technical issues emerging with lift-system overheating, in particular lift-fan clutch and roll-post actuators getting too warm in warmer-than-normal test bed flight conditions. The problem is actually pervasive because hot engine air is heating the roll-post actuators as the roll nozzle seals age and the only way they've been able to solve it thus far is by limiting flight in STOVL Mod-4. The lift fan-clutch heating problem, on the other hand, is being rectified by including spacers on a modified drive shaft to individual aircraft. The cracks problem beyond the 1,500 h is also being rectified by modifying the bulkhead on the fuselage with either aluminium or a titanium-composite and with 'local blending' of boundary materials, all of which are driving costs way up beyond the $147 million mark. At that rate, we can't afford the F-35 for anything other than strategic command, and only in the single digit numbers.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2011

Share This Page