Chinese Government plan to ban Cantonese from any media broadcast after 3/1/2011

[Bhadra]

India has a different history, background, culture, demography and requirement.

Why compare Chinese conditions with those of India when that is incomparable?

Indian concern is the nature of development in China and a fear that Chinese monolithic nationalism may one day demand that Mandarin be the main language of India.

Though Chinese have stopped export of Communism / Maoism but one never knows about Indian Maoists and their futuristic CCP !!

 

[Bhadra]

Is it like in India where people who speak English whithout Indian accent are treated as first class citizens?

India always had elites language and working languages.

Sanskrit, Persian, Arabic, English.....

I only hope English is not replaced by Mandarin much to your delight !

 

[Dovah]

Maybe China should learn something from India, promote a foreign language as a national language, then everyone will be happy.

Classic trolling/flaming. Any thread that criticizes the CCP has to derailed, isn't it?

 

[mayfair]

The initial translation is quite a distortion. The Chinese link actually says to limit use of Cantonese instead of banning.

The question is why? Why limit the use of Cantonese at all?

Why is it a problem if a certain section of the population wish to communicate in the language of their ancestors.

 

[mylegend]

mylegend, thanks for your long post, though I don't think I deserve that. Because I merely asked a simple question, which was not directing at you but some Indian member who accused China of Hanisation.

Since you replied my post for Indians, now I am asking you, do you think the move to regulate the Cantonese language by CPC is an act of Hanisation as it was suggested by Indians?

Your Question is important, I should have answered it, my reply was majorly to expand the message of my post. Although I do not like the phrase Hanisation, but it does not exist in Guangdong. For Guangdong is already Han for last 2000 yrs. I do not like to use Han term too much, for all 56 ethnic group belong to the same country. The biggest ethnic group after Han is probably Manchus, they are no different from Han in anyway now... I mean, the only thing you can find is probably from I.D. -_- Also preferential law for other ethnic group such as not limited by 1 child policy, a huge bump up in grade for College Entrance Exam etc, many Han even tries to fake their identity to be minority ethnic group to get extra credit from College Entrance Exam... I mean really, after so many years, things are different now.

The region is part of Chinese terriotorry for over 2000 yrs, it was first annexed during Qin Dynasty thanks to Qin Shi Emperor. It is completely intergrated into Chinese culture during Han Dynasty along with Guangxi Province... The northern vietnam used to be the same district, but it is too far away from central government. The Northern Vietnam gain Independence after fall of Song Dynasty.

Last year's protest ended with Wang Yang(Provincial Communist Party Secretary)'s statement on August 4, ""我都在学广东话，谁敢废粤？"Even I'm learning Cantonese, who dare to banned Cantonese?" But he actually inflame the controversies from the beginning, in July 16, in a party meeting he said that now Guangdong is wealthy, but need 教化（education). 汪洋：「教化」廣東人_大陸頻道_新浪網-北美As part of "education" of people from Guangdong Province, WangYang stated that include promoting Mandarin. He also quoted other things such as promoting art and promote foreign language fluency, but the speech is being sound-bite by many audience, many believe that he meant that Mandarin should be promoted to replaced Cantonese completely.

The doubt is fairly reasonable at least from my point of view, because there is no need to further promote Mandarin when it is the only language in the education system(as well as English, but it is for different propose)... I have never seen people below 60s that can not speak Mandarin. Over 95%(many above 60s do not speak Mandarin, but most do) of Cantonese speaker speak Mandarin. What further education is being needed? That is why this message lead to some outrage. When Guangzhou government suspend Cantonese programs for Guangdong TV Channel Economic sub Channel, the viewership drop dramatically, in Jan 2010, Cantonese Program was reintroduced... However, Noon News session in Guangdong TV Channel was in Cantonese in the past, but it is being changed to Mandarin... There is also other complication in this issue which I am not going to discuss in detail... But after all those thing, Wang Yang's speech was pretty UN-considerate.

 

[Known_Unknown]

Banning a language is ridiculous. These are the sort of mistakes authoritarian governments make over and over until one day, the people can tolerate life no more, and the governments collapse.

I would hate to live in China, in fact anyone who has ever lived in a democratic country will find it impossible to live under an eternal dictatorship which has total control over every facet of life.

Sure sucks to be a Chinese. Hopefully the better off ones can immigrate away to western countries.

 

[AprilLyrics]

ccp do make mistakes.but limit Cantonese is right or wrong,we dont know.please dont comment with ur personal emotion.

i should say some of the advantages:

first of all,it is Not Ban,it is Limit in some Occasions.u can still use it after u report to departments.and is it that difficult?i think, no,its not
Using Madarin makes it easy for people who comes from other province to communicate.

U people ignored this,Guangdong Province is full of outsiders.among all the people in Guangdong,about 1/3 r outsiders.come on,1/3 outsiders.we should also care about them.Madarin is easy for both them and Guangdong local people to communicate.besides,local people can use Cantonnese to communicate in any place they want.it didnt limit their communication,just limited in some occasion like broadcast.and after report to the department,u can still broadcast in Cantonese.just a little bother than before for those 2/3 local people.but alot convenient for 1/3 outsiders.

please dont be selfish.those outsides contributes a lot to Guangdong economy.

 

[AprilLyrics]

Banning a language is ridiculous. These are the sort of mistakes authoritarian governments make over and over until one day, the people can tolerate life no more, and the governments collapse.

I would hate to live in China, in fact anyone who has ever lived in a democratic country will find it impossible to live under an eternal dictatorship which has total control over every facet of life.

Sure sucks to be a Chinese. Hopefully the better off ones can immigrate away to western countries.

if u dont understand,dont make a conclusion so quikly.

for example,do u know about 1/3 Guangdong population r outsiders from other province?many of them do not understand Cantonese at all.dont u think we should care about them?

 

[amoy]

frankly I thnk this discussion is derailed by pulling (or escalating to) history, authoritarian blah blah or culture into this. This is a simple matter on use of a language medium. Why did I say u distorted the whole issue? Pls refer back to the original of the regulation instead of freelance interpretation.

u know what? I can speak and understnd a few dialects incl Cantonese. It's most frowned upon when people talk loudly in a dialect or in Mandarin with a terrible accent.

Even within Guangdong Prov. Cantonese as a dialect isnt a majority (correct me if wrong) at all. Think abt Hakka, Teochow (Chaozhou-Shantou) and millions of migrants from countrywide.

But nothing personal here. Get back to the original text of the regulation pls!!

 

[mylegend]

As if I said that is a ban? I stated clearly that no Cantonese is allowed unless with pre-approval. As you said, what you call outsiders control all major position in the government(is this really fair? If you are in doubt, checked all the 一把手，party secretary, almost non from Guangdong). Local Media already provide over half of its programs in Mandarins, and I am not against broadcast in Mandarin. The document stated clearly that no Cantonese is allowed in Broadcast unless with approval, and I translated as it is. It is my personal opinion, it is fact. Media should broadcast shows by demand not be official document. People should have the right to watch their local channel in their local dialect.

It is pathetic for you to consider me as selfish by just translate some document and states some other fact. Wow, did I deny people from other province(I really do not like the word outsider, they are not, we are all Chinese). If you do not understand Cantonese broadcast, switch other local broadcast in Mandarin. It is that simple. People in Guangdong never demand to limit mandarin right? But you are saying that they should sacraficed for our local dialect is not the official dialect, because you believe north is superior than the south right? You are accusing me of my translation is falsified. It is a limit only in some occasions. Then I suspect if you understand Chinese at all?

昨天，广东省政府网站挂出《广东省国家通用语言文字规定》。从2012年3月1日起，广东省将实行《广东省国家通用语言文字规定》（以下简称《规定》），推广普通话。按照规定，明年3月起,广播电台、电视台及其网络音视频节目以普通话作为播音、节目主持、采访的基本用语。使用方言播音的，应当经国务院广播电视部门或者省广播电影电视部门批准。
​

Translate this yourself and found the found out why you are pathetic.

You are also very unconsiderate, put it this way, you call people from other province outsider, but then demand it that outsider should have more right then those who lived there for centuries. First of all, they are not outsider. Second, if they are, why is outsider occupy all the major government posts? You are playing with something pretty dangerous, there was no sentiment between people from within the province and what you call outsider until those type speeches repeats itself again and again.

We are all people of one country, one nation and one common wish for our nation's prosperity. Don't place yourself superior just because where people are from. I mean we are all from one country. You should not claim that the local should sacraficed for the convienient for 1/3 outsider. Despite some local Guangdong Channel Broadcast in Cantonese, almost all channel broadcast mandarin in China. You got over 60 channel to choose from, why do you bother to take away the few local channel in Cantonese?

ccp do make mistakes.but limit Cantonese is right or wrong,we dont know.please dont comment with ur personal emotion.

i should say some of the advantages:

first of all,it is Not Ban,it is Limit in some Occasions.u can still use it after u report to departments.and is it that difficult?i think, no,its not
Using Madarin makes it easy for people who comes from other province to communicate.

U people ignored this,Guangdong Province is full of outsiders.among all the people in Guangdong,about 1/3 r outsiders.come on,1/3 outsiders.we should also care about them.Madarin is easy for both them and Guangdong local people to communicate.besides,local people can use Cantonnese to communicate in any place they want.it didnt limit their communication,just limited in some occasion like broadcast.and after report to the department,u can still broadcast in Cantonese.just a little bother than before for those 2/3 local people.but alot convenient for 1/3 outsiders.

please dont be selfish.those outsides contributes a lot to Guangdong economy.

 

[AprilLyrics]

As if I said that is a ban? I stated clearly that no Cantonese is allowed unless with pre-approval. As you said, what you call outsiders control all major position in the government(is this really fair? If you are in doubt, checked all the 一把手，party secretary, almost non from Guangdong). Local Media already provide over half of its programs in Mandarins, and I am not against broadcast in Mandarin. The document stated clearly that no Cantonese is allowed in Broadcast unless with approval, and I translated as it is. It is my personal opinion, it is fact. Media should broadcast shows by demand not be official document. People should have the right to watch their local channel in their local dialect.

It is pathetic for you to consider me as selfish by just translate some document and states some other fact. Wow, did I deny people from other province(I really do not like the word outsider, they are not, we are all Chinese). If you do not understand Cantonese broadcast, switch other local broadcast in Mandarin. It is that simple. People in Guangdong never demand to limit mandarin right? But you are saying that they should sacraficed for our local dialect is not the official dialect, because you believe north is superior than the south right? You are accusing me of my translation is falsified. It is a limit only in some occasions. Then I suspect if you understand Chinese at all?

昨天，广东省政府网站挂出《广东省国家通用语言文字规定》。从2012年3月1日起，广东省将实行《广东省国家通用语言文字规定》（以下简称《规定》），推广普通话。按照规定，明年3月起,广播电台、电视台及其网络音视频节目以普通话作为播音、节目主持、采访的基本用语。使用方言播音的，应当经国务院广播电视部门或者省广播电影电视部门批准。
​

Translate this yourself and found the found out why you are pathetic.

You are also very unconsiderate, put it this way, you call people from other province outsider, but then demand it that outsider should have more right then those who lived there for centuries. First of all, they are not outsider. Second, if they are, why is outsider occupy all the major government posts? You are playing with something pretty dangerous, there was no sentiment for the what you call outsider until those type speeches repeats itself again and again.

We are all people of one country, one nation and one common wish for our nation's prosperity. Don't place yourself superior just because where people are from. I mean we are all from one country. You should not claim that the local should sacraficed for the convienient for 1/3 outsider. Despite some local Guangdong Channel Broadcast in Cantonese, almost all channel broadcast mandarin in China. You got over 60 channel to choose from, why do you bother to take away the few local channel in Cantonese?

wow,outsider is a wrong word then.(不好意思，我以为outsider是外地人，外省人的意思。这回明白了吧)i mean people from other province.that should be OK.

and,just like ohimalaya said,even not all of Local Guangdong people speak Cantonese.

"You got over 60 channel to choose from, why do you bother to take away the few local channel in Cantonese?"
hey,who said take away the few local channel in Cantonese?just"使用方言播音的，应当经国务院广播电视部门或者省广播电影电视部门批准。"

 

[mylegend]

I will correct you then, due to Cantonese being a provincial dialect, and economic reform begins Guangdong. Many people from other province learned the local dialect when they come to the province. Many people in Meixian, a Hakka region, and people in Shanwei, a teochow region, speaks the dialect. I speak teochow(潮州话）myself because my father and mother is from Shantou. Older people there call Cantonese the provincial capital language（省城话)，and that is why many in those region speaks it just like they know how to speak Mandarin. Everytime I am in Shantou, almost all local broadcast is in Teochow. People are fine with it, and it remain that way because strong local bonds that prevent government from getting rid of those program. Then why should cantonese be get rid off then? As far as original document: I got a primary source right here, i meant it is from Government website, read it yourself to see if I distort anything.　第十一条　广播电台、电视台及其网络音视频节目以普通话作为播音、节目主持、采访的基本用语。　　使用方言播音的，应当经国务院广播电视部门或者省广播电影电视部门批准。
This is the link from goverment, read through entire document if you wish. All I want to state is just this article itself can eliminate many cantonese broadcast 广东省国家通用语言文字规定
I do agree with your point it is uncomfortable when people talk loudly in a dialect you do not understand or barely understand. But you see, this document is not about forbiding people to speak loudly in their dialect(this is also bad), but making it difficult to have any broadcast in Cantonese. I mean this does not bother you right? with over 50 channel with any standard digital set in China now, you got so many choose to choose from. Why take the choose away for Guangdong resident to watch the only few channel that display in Guangdong that is being broadcast in Cantonese in half of the day?( Many hours is in Mandarins.)
Shame on you for accusing people without justification, you claims that I did not read the document and my translation was wrong, okay, give me another translation of article 11 of this document. Find a way to translate this sentence differently. What a Shame.

frankly I thnk this discussion is derailed by pulling (or escalating to) history, authoritarian blah blah or culture into this. This is a simple matter on use of a language medium. Why did I say u distorted the whole issue? Pls refer back to the original of the regulation instead of freelance interpretation.

u know what? I can speak and understnd a few dialects incl Cantonese. It's most frowned upon when people talk loudly in a dialect or in Mandarin with a terrible accent.

Even within Guangdong Prov. Cantonese as a dialect isnt a majority (correct me if wrong) at all. Think abt Hakka, Teochow (Chaozhou-Shantou) and millions of migrants from countrywide.

But nothing personal here. Get back to the original text of the regulation pls!!

 

[Known_Unknown]

if u dont understand,dont make a conclusion so quikly.

for example,do u know about 1/3 Guangdong population r outsiders from other province?many of them do not understand Cantonese at all.dont u think we should care about them?

So if they are outsiders, they should learn Cantonese! They want to move to Guangdong, and force their language down the throats of the Guangdong natives? Ridiculous! This is language imperialism- there should be no reason why any native speaker should need PERMISSION from the government to broadcast a radio/talk show in his/her language! This absolutely smacks of state subjugation and oppression of linguistic minorities..... if this were to happen in India, no one would tolerate it!

For example, in the 1950's, an attempt was made in India to make Hindi the national language, so that everyone would be forced to learn it, while delegating all the other languages to a secondary status. In South India, there was a lot of opposition to this plan, see details here:

Anti-Hindi agitations of Tamil Nadu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the end, the government conceded to the people's demands and did not impose Hindi.

Similarly, people in various other parts of India also went on strikes and protests in order to have states based on linguistic lines. This struggle resulted in the Central government conceding to their demands:

States Reorganisation Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Language is integral to culture and forms the basis of defining an individual's identity. Limiting the free expression of one language or promoting another language as a replacement for one's native language will result in a backlash.

Of course, things work differently in authoritarian countries like China, so the Indian experience may not be valid. In India, the government is democratically elected, and hence has no other choice but to respond to the people's demands, but in China, people will just be thrown into jail for opposing the government.

 

[amoy]

Repeated as nothing personal nor getting emotional. Let me point out a few 'distortions' (guess u 've got aware too by now):

1) u put the title as to 'ban' Cantonese, but the regulation is not targeting Cantonese alone. Its abt regulating use of all dialects on media

2) so u also came to see this as limiting instead of banning Cantonese (or whatever dialects)

Funniest of all is u admit yourself as a Teachow native speaker but u champion Cantonese for retaining a broad band width overwhelming other dialects? Then perhaps someday Teochow peasants may rise against Cantonese chauvinism? Then endless as it is ??

Just sum up in Guangdong there're
- Cantonese
- Hakka
- Teachow
- Other provincials

So do u want a tower of Babel out of Canton?

Language is integral to culture and forms the basis of defining an individual's identity. Limiting the free expression of one language or promoting another language as a replacement for one's native language will result in a backlash.

Such a statement only reaffirms my conviction that a national language is to be in place to hold people together instead of dividing.

 

[mylegend]

wow,outsider is a wrong word then.(不好意思，我以为outsider是外地人，外省人的意思。这回明白了吧)i mean people from other province.that should be OK.

and,just like ohimalaya said,even not all of Local Guangdong people speak Cantonese.

"You got over 60 channel to choose from, why do you bother to take away the few local channel in Cantonese?"
hey,who said take away the few local channel in Cantonese?just"使用方言播音的，应当经国务院广播电视部门或者省广播电影电视部门批准。"

I got it then, I should not have going after verbal mistake since I made many myself... anyway, majority of people from the province speak Cantonese, and what shows being broadcast should be determine by the market. I mean there is over 60 channel in Mandarin you can choose from, why pick the few local channel in Cantonese and convert them in Mandarin channel... What the government is doing in very dangerous, this gave separatist in Republic of China(Taiwan) a strong support for their argument. They can simply say: "Look at Guangdong, we will be the same and Hokkien(闽南话) will be eliminated" wow, can you imagine what a mistake CCP is making?

 

[AprilLyrics]

So if they are outsiders, they should learn Cantonese! They want to move to Guangdong, and force their language down the throats of the Guangdong natives? Ridiculous! This is language imperialism- there should be no reason why any native speaker should need PERMISSION from the government to broadcast a radio/talk show in his/her language! This absolutely smacks of state subjugation and oppression of linguistic minorities..... if this were to happen in India, no one would tolerate it!

For example, in the 1950's, an attempt was made in India to make Hindi the national language, so that everyone would be forced to learn it, while delegating all the other languages to a secondary status. In South India, there was a lot of opposition to this plan, see details here:

Anti-Hindi agitations of Tamil Nadu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the end, the government conceded to the people's demands and did not impose Hindi.

Similarly, people in various other parts of India also went on strikes and protests in order to have states based on linguistic lines. This struggle resulted in the Central government conceding to their demands:

States Reorganisation Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Language is integral to culture and forms the basis of defining an individual's identity. Limiting the free expression of one language or promoting another language as a replacement for one's native language will result in a backlash.

Of course, things work differently in authoritarian countries like China, so the Indian experience may not be valid. In India, the government is democratically elected, and hence has no other choice but to respond to the people's demands, but in China, people will just be thrown into jail for opposing the government.

.......if ur way of thinking is like that,I have no words........because all of ur opinion r based on Chinese Goverment is anti-humanity......

but there is one thing.people from different area have different profits.especially in a large country like china.even southern peole share different profits with northern people,and western(in china) people share different profits with eastern people.this situation also exsits in India,America,Russia and other countries.for example,black people live in America,and many American laws changed for them.a good government should know how to balance profits of different people

all u see on this Cantonese event is Chinese Government is doing bad thing to local Guangdong people.why not change ur mind,like:chinese Government is trying to balance profits?or at least u should see both of them.

 

[AprilLyrics]

I got it then, I should not have going after verbal mistake since I made many myself... anyway, majority of people from the province speak Cantonese, and what shows being broadcast should be determine by the market. I mean there is over 60 channel in Mandarin you can choose from, why pick the few local channel in Cantonese and convert them in Mandarin channel... What the government is doing in very dangerous, this gave separatist in Republic of China(Taiwan) a strong support for their argument. They can simply say: "Look at Guangdong, we will be the same and Hokkien(闽南话) will be eliminated" wow, can you imagine what a mistake CCP is making?

CCP do make mistakes.while,whether it is a mistake or not this time,we should keep on watching it.

 

[mylegend]

You clearly did not read through my post, I did admit the mistake in my title's limit, but it is due to word limit not intentional distortion. 广东省国家通用语言文字规定Again, maybe I should include that China plan to ban all dialect... I use a wrong argument then. Why should any dialect being banned from broadcast? I should include Teachow in all my post too if that is what you mean? Again, you fully support getting rid of dialect in all broadcast, I understand?
Check it yourself, all the link i provided. The first one from ifeng.com have the similar title, I just borrow its title. I admitted in my post already that I intentionally put it that way. Just like the news from ifeng.com, this make things more controversial and attract attention right? I admit that already, check it yourself!! As about Cantonese chauvinism, do I? I always repeatly claim that I am Chinese first, not Cantonese? Right? Did I ever claim that I am a Cantonese, no, I claim that I am Guangdong native. My message is consistent, unlike yours. And did I says there is anything wrong for Teachow broadcast? NO!! I credited the Teachow broadcast for the strong bonds of the people there. So Shantou government will not eliminate the language like Guangzhou did against Cantonese.
Cantonese is the best example because no other dialect is being more widely spoken in Guangdong. Dispute that if you have no standard.

Repeated as nothing personal nor getting emotional. Let me point out a few 'distortions' (guess u 've got aware too by now):

1) u put the title as to 'ban' Cantonese, but the regulation is not targeting Cantonese alone. Its abt regulating use of all dialects on media

2) so u also came to see this as limiting instead of banning Cantonese (or whatever dialects)

Funniest of all is u admit yourself as a Teachow native speaker but u champion Cantonese for retaining a broad band width overwhelming other dialects? Then perhaps someday Teochow peasants may rise against Cantonese chauvinism? Then endless as it is ??

Just sum up in Guangdong there're
- Cantonese
- Hakka
- Teachow
- Other provincials

So do u want a tower of Babel out of Canton?

Such a statement only reaffirms my conviction that a national language is to be in place to hold people together instead of dividing.

 

[mayfair]

This thread has provided far more insights into the mindset and thinking of many of the members from PRC on this forum than most of the others combined.

 

[nimo_cn]

A nation needs an official language, whatever language it is. In the case of China, it is Mandarin.

Does mandarin qualify as an official before it was made to be? Maybe yes, maybe no, but it doesn't matter. What matters here is that Mandarin is the de facto official language.

As an official language, it enjoys some privileges. The most important privilege of being a offical language I believe is to be promoted national wide unconditionally. By doing that, local dialects will be limited at formal occasions, for exmaple on TV, Radio programs.

There purpose of this move is to promote Mandarin, not to exterminate Cantonese.