Chinese experts explain why India and Russia jointly develop FGFA

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JayATL

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. Will the US at least stay neutral if India decides to wipe out Pakistan from the face of the earth? Let's hear you the wise one!
Hell yeah they would - it would eliminate every threat on US streets practically. Every terrorist caught ( 99.99%) in the US is of pakistani birth or had been to pakistan to train or was planned from pakistan's soil! every (99.99%) terror attack planned towards the US- has pakistan being involved. Mullen also said their ISI is responsible for US deaths in afghanistan. They won't shed a tear

and you know why more so? They want to be India's allies in asia, which is a far greater concern, than the failed state of pakistan!

Btw- there was a wiki leak way back where US threatened Pak- that should an attack go sucessful on american soil and should it have an iota of evidence linking it back to Pak. They would attack Pakistan...

http://defenceforumindia.com/international-politics/14930-us-ready-bomb-150-pak-terror-camps.html
 
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pmaitra

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Hell yeah they would - it would eliminate every threat on US streets practically. Every terrorist caught ( 99.99%) in the US is of pakistani birth or had been to pakistan to train or was planned from pakistan's soil! every (99.99%) terror attack planned towards the US- has pakistan being involved. Mullen also said their ISI is responsible for US deaths in afghanistan. They won't shed a tear

and you know why more so? They want to be US's allies in asia, which is a far greater concern, than the failed state of pakistan!
That sounds very encouraging. I am not convinced yet, but I definitely look forward to it. Of course, our own government needs to grow a spine.
 

JayATL

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That sounds very encouraging. I am not convinced yet, but I definitely look forward to it. Of course, our own government needs to grow a spine.
there was a wiki leak way back where US threatened Pak- that should an attack go sucessful on american soil and should it have an iota of evidence linking it back to Pak. They would attack Pakistan... and India said ( atleast I'm lead to think) that anymore mumbai like attack and it will attack Pakistan. No different than what the US said..

http://defenceforumindia.com/international-politics/14930-us-ready-bomb-150-pak-terror-camps.html

btw India cannot " wipe off pakistan" without having much of itself being wiped off too... its a limited war we are talking about here
 
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Adux

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What does being a F-35 Tier 1 partner entail? Without knowing that, this is a extremely idiotic discussion. F-35 current offer is against MMRCA, USA and Lockheed Martin will not as far as I know ever agree to the ToT levels agreed by Dassault and Eurofighter, also are they going to let us manufacture it over here? I think not, so what is the point.

MMRCA is a product for the Defense forces as well as the 'Defense Industry'.
 

pmaitra

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there was a wiki leak way back where US threatened Pak- that should an attack go sucessful on american soil and should it have an iota of evidence linking it back to Pak. They would attack Pakistan... and India said ( atleast I'm lead to think) that anymore mumbai like attack and it will attack Pakistan. No different than what the US said..

http://defenceforumindia.com/international-politics/14930-us-ready-bomb-150-pak-terror-camps.html
If the US wants, it can bomb those terror camps without sending in foot soldiers. If it wants, it can remove its dependence on the Afghan supply route through Pakistan by normalising relations with Iran. We already have plans and part of the infrastructure ready. Its a win-win situation. Also, Iran ain't gonna nuke Israel. India will persuade Iran not to. Why isn't the US talking to Iran?

Edit:
We digressed.

Back to F-35, please provide what kind of ToT the US is willing to share with India. Have you the details?
 

JayATL

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If the US wants, it can bomb those terror camps without sending in foot soldiers. If it wants, it can remove its dependence on the Afghan supply route through Pakistan by normalising relations with Iran. We already have plans and part of the infrastructure ready. Its a win-win situation. Also, Iran ain't gonna nuke Israel. India will persuade Iran not to. Why isn't the US talking to Iran?
dude get this through for real. Phuck Iran - it has mullah's who are bat crazy who are the real people in charge and wanting nukes. Look Iran is a good friend of pak you would say? ---

well get this , any skirmish on their border or suspected terrorists crossing it from Pak side has made iran now n several occasions

a. threaten to attack those camps within Pakistan
b. Closed the boders completely for weeks on end.

thats the country you want to do business with? if they shut off pak on the IPI line- how do you get your gas?

Their mullahs are for Kashmir going to Pak. Those are the guys you trust to do business with? they like russia, will use energy pipeline as a leaverage. did you know through all wars India never shut off Pak's water supply ( commendable)? bat shzit crazy mullahs I tell ya! lord help the world if they get nukes...
 

JayATL

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Edit:
We digressed.

Back to F-35, please provide what kind of ToT the US is willing to share with India. Have you the details?
same as NATO is getting. India is a partner in the program a partial investor like others in the program.
 

pmaitra

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same as NATO is getting. India is a partner in the program a partial investor like others in the program.
And you are implying that it will be more than what the French, Brits or Russians are willing to share?

[I don't think so otherwise we would have taken the F-35 into consideration]
 

Adux

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. Also, Iran ain't gonna nuke Israel. India will persuade Iran not to
How moronic can somebody get! Perfect example of thinking and speaking from somebody's piehole!
 

pmaitra

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US offers F35 JSF to India as India-US Defence Cooperation grows

US offers F35 JSF to India as India-US Defence Cooperation grows
But Technology Transfer will be an issue
By Gulshan R LuthraPublished:January 2010
New Delhi. The India-US defence cooperation seems to be steadily growing with Washington now offering its latest Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) F-35 Lightning-II aircraft to India. But in the long run, there could be limitations over issues of Transfer of Technology (ToT) that India mandates now for major arms deals.


Representatives of Lockheed Martin, which is developing the aircraft, have indicated in the past that the aircraft could be available to India if the Indian Air Force (IAF) opted for the F-16 Super Viper in its quest for some 200 Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MRCAs) but recently, the company made a presentation to the Indian Navy without this condition.

Lockheed Martin's Vice President for Business Development Orville Prins told India Strategic that a presentation about the aircraft was made to the Indian Navy recently after it expressed interest in the newer generation of aircraft for its future carrier-based aircraft requirements.

The Indian Navy is buying 45 Mig 29Ks for the Gorshkov, or INS Vikramaditya, which it will get from Russia in 2012 and its first indigenous aircraft carrier. But for its second indigenous carrier, and possibly more in the future, the Navy is looking for a newer generation of aircraft as the carrier itself is likely to be bigger.

Although the best of the weapon systems in the US are developed by private companies, the funding for their research and development is provided by the Government which exercises full control on the resultant products and their sale to any foreign country. ToT is a serious issue and in most cases, technology, particularly source codes, is not shared even with Washington's best allies in the West or East.

Lockheed Martin apparently made the presentation to India after authorization by the US Department of Defense (DOD), but Prins pointed out that the F 35 could be sold only after clearance from the US State Department, for which bilateral negotiations between New Delhi and Washington would need to be held once India expressed interest.

The US is steadily emerging as a new supplier of sophisticated arms to India, which urgently needs to replace and augment its mostly outdated Soviet-vintage systems with high technology weapons of the 21st century.

Beginning 2002, when an agreement for the sale of 12 Raytheon's artillery and short-range missile tracker system, the AN/TPQ 37 Weapon Locating Radars (WLRs) was signed, the US has supplied systems worth nearly US $ 4 billion.

It's not much compared to what India still spends on defence trade with Russia but it is a significant beginning.

Over the last few weeks, the Indian Ministry of Defence has sent firm orders, or Letters of Request (LoR) for 10 C 17 Globemaster III strategic lift aircraft for the Indian Air Force (IAF) and 145 M 777 ultra light howitzers the Indian Army badly needs for its mountain operations.

The competing gun from Singapore Technologies Kinetics (STK) lost out as the company was mired in allegations of corruption in an Indian Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) scam. (STK is among the half a dozen Indian and international companies with whom business has been put on hold pending Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) clearance; they are not blacklisted as some have reported).

BAE Systems, primarily a British firm with commercial and manufacturing interests in the US and elsewhere, had not taken part in the tender for ultra light guns initially, although it wanted to enter the race later. Its absence in the commercial competition process helped it win the requirement.



BAE Systems developed the titanium alloy M777 in Britain but manufactures it in the US, from where it has been supplied extensively in the tough Afghan mountainous terrain against the Taliban terrorists. It is easily ferried by Boeing's Chinook helicopters, which are also being considered for acquisition by the Indian Air Force (IAF).

BAE Systems also owns the Swedish Bofors, which has changed many hands since the 1980s. It was acquired by the Swedish Government, then sold to the United Defense of USA, and finally landed in the BAE lap.

In fact, as the US Administration had imposed restrictions on the sale of military equipment to India after the 1998 nuclear tests, President Bill Clinton went out of the way in 2000 to allow United Defense-Bofors an exception to sell its guns to India if the Indian Army opted for them. BAE is now in the race to sell upgraded versions of Bofors as well as to modernize the 410 units that the Indian Army had bought.

Allegations of corruption in the acquisition of 15mm FH 77B guns (howitzers) notwithstanding, the Bofors guns proved their worth in the 1999 Kargil War to evict the intruding Pakistani Army from the heights it had infiltrated into and occupied.

India has also deployed this gun at the highest battlefield in the world at Siachin. Ferrying them to those daunting heights in parts and then assembling them has been a tremendous job by itself for the Army.

LORs for both the C 17 and M 777 have been issued only in January 2010.

India has less than 20 IL 76 Soviet-supplied Il-76 heavy lift or strategic lift aircraft, which will mark 25 years of their induction in April 2010.

Although a fuel-guzzler, the IL 76 has served the IAF well and still has a residual life of 10 to 15 years with some periodic modifications as the IAF has utilized it carefully. Manufactured in Uzbekistan, which was a part of the Soviet Union, the IL 76 is now out of production and most of its existing serviceable units have been acquired by China.

There is no matching aircraft to replace the IL 76, the closest being the C 17, although bigger aircraft are available from both the US and Russia.

The C 17 has nearly double the capacity of an IL 76, but according to Air Marshal Ashok Goel, a veteran of IAF's transport fleet, full load on an aircraft is never really carried as it hinders its range and fuel capacity.Unlike the IL 76 though, the C 17 can be refueled midair for much longer flights, and needs only two pilots and one loadmaster for operations, that is half the crew of what the IL 76 requires (seven).

Despite its massive size, the C 17 can take off and land on unpaved grassy fields like a football ground at very steep angles, an important capability in battle conditions. India Strategic's News Editor Nitin Luthra, who had the opportunity to fly in the C 17 at the Paris Air Show, had described its short takeoff capability as "simply amazing."

Although India has placed a firm order for only 10 C 17s, with no options for now, Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal P V Naik had told India Strategic that IAF was looking at 20 aircraft.



Notably, IAF had also placed an order for six C 130J Special Operations aircraft with an option for six more in 2008 with the US Lockheed Martin. A smaller aircraft than the C 17, it is also highly capable and can operate from small grassy fields to quickly get away after loading or unloading. Lockheed Martin has offered to transfer the manufacturing facility to India if 40 or 50 aircraft are ordered for military and civil use, particularly in the mountainous north-east regions.

The Border Security Force (BSF) is also considering to buy one or two C 130Js, albeit without some specialized systems that the IAF needs.

The F 35 JSF is a Fifth Generation aircraft, to be used by the US Air Force, Navy and Marines. It will perhaps be the last manned aircraft by that country before unmanned, high-powered long-range drones and helicopters fully take over the skies by the middle of this century.

The USAF is already conducting joint manned and unmanned combat operations in Afghanistan with Global Hawk and Reaper drones, clearly indicating the gradual transition underway, and refining the technology from actual, real-time warfare experience.

The unmanned systems, controlled from airbases in the US itself on the other side of the globe, are both reconnaissance and armed, and their use has increased in the recent years to neutralize terrorists in the troubled mountainous region on both sides of the Afghan-Pakistan border.

India has opted to buy drones from Israel, and there is also effort underway to develop an indigenous armed version, given the interest by IAF in this regard. It will be interesting to see if the US, which is the only country using drones in day to day war, will share some technology with India.

The F 35 is a single-engine, single-seat stealth aircraft, being developed with several foreign partners to help reduce development and production costs, and is still being tested for its varied capabilities. It will be available in conventional takeoff and landing mode as well as in short-take-off-and-vertical-landing (STOVL) for carrier landings.

Thanks to the numbers, it could cost as low as $ 50 million only per unit, or the price of a modern Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) despite its highly advanced features.

The JSF 35B conducted its first STOVL propulsion test in flight for the first time on Jan 7 at the Naval Air Station (NAS) Patuxent River, and it will be some time before it goes into production. Its programme partner countries include Britain, Italy, Netherlands, Canada, Turkey, Australia, Norway, Denmark , Singapore and Israel, all of whom would possibly supply some components, and investments.

Whether India joins the production programme or not is an open question, depending upon the numbers required. The Indian Navy cannot have a large requirement and the Indian Air Force is already committed to buying the similar but perhaps more expensive Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) to be jointly produced by Russia's Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production Association (KNAPPO) – which produces SU 30 jets – and India's HAL.

The Russians have done substantial work in this regard, and hope to fly its single seat version by 2015-16 while the IAF hopes to induct its two-seat version by 2017. IAF wants the second seat "missionised" for weapon operations for the co-pilot, a practice that the Israelis have also opted for in their F-16 aircraft.

China, which has been accused of stealing technology by Russia, is also trying to develop a 5th generation fighter.

In any case, it's a question of time when the environment in the strategic Indian Ocean region, and around India, is filled by the likes of stealth and futuristic aircraft. Lockheed Martin hopes to be around for that time, and, says Orville Prins, "we are making the offer well ahead in that perspective."

However, the Americans had proved to be unreliable in the 1960s when they made several promises for equipment after the 1962 Chinese aggression on India and did not fulfill them. Driven by its Cold War strategies and regional military alliances like SEATO and CENTO, the US always supplied the best of its weapons to Pakistan, forcing India to follow. For instance, Pakistan was the first country in South Asia to get hi-tech weapons in the 1980s when the US gave it F 16 warjets, Harpoon anti-shipping missiles, P-3C Orion Maritime Surveillance and Attack aircraft as well as Command, Control and Communications and Intelligence (C3I) computers.

India had to follow with Mirage 2000 aircraft from France and Mig 29s from the Soviet Union.

The geopolitical realities have perhaps changed and the US is willing to offer some of its best technologies.

Indeed, the US has been steadily opening its stable of sophisticated weapons to India. After the sale of Raytheon's WLRs, which was actually the first combat system under the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) received from the US after India's nuclear tests in 1974 and 1998, the US has also sold eight highly advanced Boeing P8-I Multi-mission Maritime Aircraft (MMA) to the Indian Navy to patrol the Indian Ocean. The aircraft is still under development, and significantly, will be available to the Indian Navy nearly at the same time as to the US Navy, which has paid for its development.

This was preceded by the transfer of an old amphibious ship, USS Trenton, renamed INS Jalashwa, and its six onboard Sikorsky utility helicopters at nominal costs for the Indian Navy.

The P8-I is the most hi-tech system yet to be acquired by India, and according to Boeing's Integrated Defense Systems India Head, Dr Vivek Lall, "its sale is unprecedented" in terms of US transfer of technology.

In August last year, another US arms major, Northrop Grumman, also offered its futuristic Hawkeye 2-D combat management aircraft to the Indian Navy. This aircraft is also under development and it India opts to buy it, then this system will also be available to the Indian Navy nearly at the same time as the US Navy.



The P8-I deal is the biggest yet at $ 2.1 billion, while the other major deal for C 130Js has been placed at nearly $ one billion. The 145 M777 guns are around S 650 million while the 10 C 17s could be between $ 2.5 to 3 billion. IAF has also bought three Boeing Business Jets for VIP travel worth around $ 220 million.

The deal for the 10 C 17s, which was formally announced by Boeing from Long Beach. California on Jan 8, would be bigger than that of the P8-Is, depending upon the configuration and requirements of the Indian Air Force. No details are available.

Notably, Boeing and Lockheed Martin have also fielded their respective F/A-18 Super Hornet and F-16 Super Viper combat jets to India in the six-cornered MRCA competition, but the US has also added other sophisticated systems like the Lockheed Martin's Aegis shipboard anti-missile system, which had been used two years ago to shoot down a satellite in space with precision as part of an apparent technology demonstration.

Orville Prins said that presentation on the Aegis system had also been made to the Indian Navy and the Ministry of Defence.On offer are also some of the best precision missiles and engagement systems from Raytheon, which does not make any platforms but builds onboard capabilities.

Sources say that it is also offering its latest Airborne Standoff Radar (ASTOR), which is perhaps the latest in Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) technology, to India. The system has been fielded in Afghanistan by the British forces only last year.

Raytheon has been mentioning its Patriot anti-missile system but as yet, it has no formal clearance from the US government to offer it to India. Informal presentations have been made though.

Notably, most of the combat systems with the Indian Armed Forces are either old or outdated. For instance, except for the Su 30MKI combat aircraft, all the fighter and transport aircraft with the Indian Air Force are at least 20 years old.

The emphasis now is more on onboard precision engagement technology as the key to modern warfare and defence.

The US has that.

But how far India goes in buying the US systems will largely depend not only on the technology and price offered, but also on the Transfer of Technology (ToT) that most major deals now warrant as a policy.
© India Strategic


Source: ..:: India Strategic ::.. Indian Navy: US offers F 35 to India as India-US Defence Cooperation grows
 
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JayATL

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And you are implying that it will be more than what the French, Brits or Russians are willing to share?

[I don't think so otherwise we would have taken the F-35 into consideration]
it is what brits and french get being part of nato, some nato countries get more. its upto India to take advantage of europes economic desperation and US' zeal to please india and get more... F 35 JSF partner program was not offered at the time PAK -FA was discussed. thats why there was no consideration on F35 back then

do you know that US is beating itself ( politicans) that they lost F16/ F18 because they did not offer the latest tech to india? even a presidential candidate spoke off it in debate weeks back. US sentors are furious that India was offered it too now..
 

Adux

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Bullshit, It wasnt offered only because of timelines? What will they bring to India for MMRCA trials? The prototypes?
 

JayATL

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What does being a F-35 Tier 1 partner entail? Without knowing that, this is a extremely idiotic discussion. F-35 current offer is against MMRCA, USA and Lockheed Martin will not as far as I know ever agree to the ToT levels agreed by Dassault and Eurofighter, also are they going to let us manufacture it over here? I think not, so what is the point.

MMRCA is a product for the Defense forces as well as the 'Defense Industry'.
stop with your " its against MMRCA" garbage on and on - its PAK- FA being discussed. who cares if it was offered at first on MMRCA as an afterthought. The offer is still on the table . They aint pulling it off the table if have your darn MMRCA going to france or euro group. THEY WANT INDIA TO SIGN ON- with or without MMRCA!
 

Adux

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Are you an idiot? F-35 is offered against the MMRCA. PAK-FA is a completely different project, and India is already in on it, paid up money. There are only are two options for Americans MMRCA and AMCA, India is already in the FGFA camp. Every credible news item and quote from US and India talks about F-35 for MMRCA, except for your stupid brain. You are pushing it because you know that MMRCA is a done deal, and AMCA is too far ahead in the future, so scuttle the Russian deal for you to please your new found American Love. Well tough son, aint happening.

If you can get your head out of your ass read this.

End this MMRCA hara-kiri







The J-20 fighter prototype, a 5th generation combat aircraft built by China's Chengdu Aircraft Industry, made its first flight on 11th Jan 2011. This necessitates a re-evaluation of the IAF's procurement of 4th generation medium fighters, which is close to being finalised


by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard
1st Nov 11

Knife-edge tension is guaranteed as senior executives from Eurofighter GmbH and Dassault assemble on Friday in the office of Vivek Rae, Director General (Acquisitions) of the Ministry of Defence (MoD). The purpose of the gathering: to open commercial bids for the world's most ill-conceived and biggest international arms purchase. I refer to the Indian Air Force's harebrained proposal to buy 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) that will be outrun and outgunned by Chinese fighters soon after they enter Indian Air Force (IAF) service.

The opening of bids in any big contract is a tense moment. Eurofighter's and Dassault's inordinate anxiety also stems from the fact that the IAF buy is crucial to their future. Eurofighter GmbH faces serious internal problems with partner nations scaling down their orders. India is desperately needed to restore the economics of production. Britain's Royal Air Force has already slashed its order for Typhoons. And, last week, The New York Times reported that Germany's Luftwaffe (which ironically spearheads the Typhoon campaign in India) is trimming its purchase from 177 to 140 Typhoons. Dassault is in even direr straits, with Rafale having failed to find a single international customer; there are just 180 Rafale fighters on order, all for the French military, which hardly has a choice.

The only relatively carefree man at the start of that meeting on Friday might be Mr Rae himself, who will be sitting on the defence ministry's war chest of Rs 42,000 crore. But his good cheer may not survive the opening of bids because the MoD's estimate – arrived at some six years ago – will almost certainly be dwarfed by the lower bid. Last month the MoD revalued its original estimation in a process called "benchmarking". But Mr Rae knows that if the winning quote emerges significantly more expensive than the MoD's "benchmarked" figure, the process will begin anew.

Such an eventuality would be a blessing in disguise; and the best way to sidestep this cockamamie purchase of overpriced fighters that will take heavy casualties in any future conflict with China. Both the Typhoon and Rafale are "4th Generation-plus fighters", inferior in crucial aspects like stealth to the J-20, China's "5th Generation" (Gen-5) stealth fighter that took to the skies this year. Admittedly the J-20 would need a decade of flight-testing before it enters operational service, but the first MMRCA would only be delivered to India by 2015-16. Five years after that, operational J-20s, of the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF), will be dominating the Himalayas. The IAF MMRCAs, already outclassed by 2020, will limp around the skies till 2050 since the MoD will rightly protest that Rs 42,000-84,000 crore have been spent on them.

The IAF sadly is shutting its eyes to this even as China's rising aerospace profile informs the security calculus of other regional air forces. Japan, South Korea and Singapore are realising that a Gen-5 fleet is needed for a credible defence capability against the PLA. South Korea is set to choose Lockheed Martin's F-35 Lightening II, the only Gen-5 fighter on offer in the global market. The Japan Air Self Defence Force (JASDF) too is veering around to the F-35 after Lockheed Martin was denied export clearances to supply Tokyo the F-22 Raptor, unarguably the world's most advanced fighter. In 2003, Singapore invested money into the F-35 development programme; it is on course to buy the aircraft.

Given that a rising China makes choosing Gen-5 a no-brainer, why then is the IAF (presumably a rational actor) inexplicably buying Gen-4+ fighters? The reason, sadly, is the political-bureaucratic stranglehold over procurement in which any IAF re-evaluation carries a penalty of years of delay. In the early 2000s, when the IAF framed the case for buying an MMRCA, no Gen-5 aircraft were available for sale. The F-35 was under development but was not ready for flight-testing, an essential part of India's procurement process. Unwilling to wait for a Gen-5 fighter, the IAF scaled down its requirements and initiated an impartial multi-vendor contest for whatever Gen-4+ fighters were there in the market.

Years later, as the IAF finds itself choosing between two Gen-4+ aircraft, it must also note that the F-35 is on the cusp of operational clearance. It's manufacturer, Lockheed Martin, has signalled in multiple ways that it would supply the IAF that fighter at a fly-away cost of $65 million per aircraft (significantly cheaper than the Rafale and the Typhoon) with deliveries beginning by 2015. Washington has indicated that any F-35 sale to India would be expeditiously cleared. But for an insecure IAF, used to being shoved around by the MoD, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. The MMRCA purchase would bring in six squadrons of reasonably good fighters, even if they were outclassed by the PLAAF in war. Any change at this state, or so the IAF believes and accepts, would require fresh MoD clearances and financial sanctions that could take another three years.

But there is an alternative. The IAF must frankly tell the MoD that the situation has changed, and that national security demands scrapping the overpriced MMRCA procurement and buying the F-35 through a single-vendor contract. The defence of the realm cannot be held hostage to the procedural requirement of multi-vendor bidding; nor is overpaying justifiable if it was done through competitive bidding. New Delhi has recently procured several fine aircraft on a single-vendor, government-to-government basis: the Sukhoi-30MKI from Russia; and the C-130J and C-17 transport aircraft from the US. The procurement of a new fighter that will form the backbone of the IAF for decades must be treated with the same urgency.
Broadsword: End this MMRCA hara-kiri
 

JayATL

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Are you an idiot? F-35 is offered against the MMRCA. PAK-FA is a completely different project, and India is already in on it, paid up money. There are only are two options for Americans MMRCA and AMCA, India is already in the FGFA camp. Every credible news item and quote from US and India talks about F-35 for MMRCA, except for your stupid brain. You are pushing it because you know that MMRCA is a done deal, and AMCA is too far ahead in the future, so scuttle the Russian deal for you to please your new found American Love. Well tough son, aint happening.

If you can get your head out of your ass read this.



Broadsword: End this MMRCA hara-kiri
This why I avoid debating you. You were born a village idiot and work it well on these forums. IT was offered on MMRCA - yes. But it is not off the table because india selects MMRCA elsewhere. That freaking concept is too tough for a moron like you to get. and India has not paid shit so far worth anything much on your 5th gen program ... they have talked about potential costs, but no check beyond few millions has been written ( last I checked ).

don't show me articles of someone talking about dropping MMRCA for F35 as the holy grail of what US wants. They know MMRCA is done deal... They are not , I repeat you dumb ass , are not pulling off JSF offer from India regardless! the debate here is about dropping PAK-FA for F35. GTFO / ignored going forward because I know you will come back with " but but they want us to drop MMRCA for F35 waahhhh"
 
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pmaitra

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Highlighting from post #54:

Then there is the issue of national sovereignty for India. U.S. sales of fighter aircraft have other strings attached as Turkey or Pakistan would tell you. F-16s for these customers have devices in them that limit what they can do when located in certain geographic locations.
Then you have observe what happend to Indonesia, Thailand and Pakistan. When they did something that was not in the interest of the U.S. they got logistics support for fighter aircraft cut off.
And an excellent comment:

Anonymous said...Mabe USAF should buy/license build the twin-seat FGFA from India starting with sub-work made in India and final assembly in US?

Install with F110 engines and Super Hornet avionics?
 
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JayATL

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Highlighting from post #54:





And an excellent comment:
My reply from a previous post addressing those concerns...

"This is a JSF program where India would be a partner and not just a buyer. Partners don't get supplies stopped... It's a completely different contract and terms and also includes several other countries. If the US were to do so? Then forget being sued, they lose creditability to ever have anyone partner with them. Which is a greater risk to their image, pocket and strategic outlook.

Another thing- understands this, i keep hearing about what if US stops its supplies...? The US is not looking at India as a onetime customer- the US is hedging all in that India is what guarantees both India and US's influence in Asia. This is much more than just this single deal(s)..".
 

pmaitra

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My reply from a previous post addressing those concerns...
Apropos...

"This is a JSF program where India would be a partner and not just a buyer. Partners don't get supplies stopped... It's a completely different contract and terms and also includes several other countries. If the US were to do so? Then forget being sued, they lose creditability to ever have anyone partner with them. Which is a greater risk to their image, pocket and strategic outlook.
Sorry Jay, I am pretty sure that the US will code lock those F-35s so that they can be turned off anytime. Yes, I am as sure as I am of the fact that the Sun rises from the east.

Another thing- understands this, i keep hearing about what if US stops its supplies...? The US is not looking at India as a onetime customer- the US is hedging all in that India is what guarantees both India and US's influence in Asia. This much more than just a deal..".
Oh c'mon, the US has done that again and again and US global strategic interests vary from decade to decade. We are not buying ball-point pens here; we're talking about fighter jets. Too risky!
 

Adux

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This why I avoid debating you. You were born a village idiot and work it well on these forums. IT was offered on MMRCA - yes. But it is not off the table because india selects MMRCA elsewhere. That freaking concept is too tough for a moron like you to get. and India has not paid shit so far worth anything much on your 5th gen program ... they have talked about potential costs, but no check beyond few millions has been written ( last I checked ).
Not even ONCE, has anyone from the US or even Lockheed Spokesman Ajay Shukla (pun) has ever said about F-35 in lieu for PAK-FA, the Indian government, has CATEGORICALLY DENIED having any interest in F-35 since they are already COMMITTED to PAK-FA for 5th Gen, India has ALREADY PAID $395 million dollars towards PAKFA. Your F-35 is on the table because there is slight chance that EURO BIRDS can prove very costly than already BUDGETED there, then both their offers will be REJECTED, which is GRIPEN and F-35 is still sharpening their tools to enter the fray again! You effin moron, you have no clue what you are on about. It will be off the table, when MMRCA is selected, and will be BACK ON the table in the form of F-35C when the NAVY goes for future 100-150 Carrier Fighters. F-35 cannot and will not fullfill Indian conditions, WHEN IT DID NOT fulfill the CONDITIONS of the MOST steadfast US ally BRITON even on the matter of SOURCE CODE. Which means it cannot and will not be ALLOWED to compete for ToT intensive contracts such as PAK-FA and MMRCA.

ONCE AGAIN, YOU MORON, Indian government has REJECTED nearly a ONE year back, F-35 offer in lieu of PAK-FA and since then paid $395 million dollars to the Russians, and even the signed the damned AGREEMENT.
 
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