Chinese Carrier Killer Works

Discussion in 'China' started by average american, May 7, 2013.

  1. average american

    average american Senior Member Senior Member

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    Chinese Carrier Killer Works
    by James Dunnigan
    May 6, 2013

    The U.S. Navy believes that China has already begun deploying the DF-21D ballistic missile, which was designed for use against the U.S. Navy, particularly aircraft carriers. In response, the Americans are developing defenses and countermeasures against the DF-21D. Details of this effort are, for obvious reasons, kept secret.

    The basic DF-21 is a 15 ton, two stage, solid fuel missile that is 10.7 meters (35 feet) long and 140cm (4.6 feet) in diameter. Range varies (from 1,700-3,000 kilometers) depending on model. The DF-21D is believed to have a range of 1,500-2,000 kilometers. While the 500-2,000 kg (.5-2 ton) warhead usually contains a nuclear weapon, there are also several types of conventional warheads, including one designed for use against warships. Some of these conventional warheads are for use against targets in Taiwan. This is because the DF-21, as a longer range ballistic missile that comes down on the target faster than the 1,200 shorter range ballistic missiles aimed at Taiwan. That means that the DS-21 is too fast for the Pac-3 anti-missile missiles Taiwan is installing around crucial installations.

    Until recently, there was no evidence that the complete DF-21D system had been tested. But recently satellite photos showed a 200 meter long white rectangle in the Gobi Desert (in Western China) with two large craters in it. This would appear to be a “target” for testing the DF-21D, and two of the inert practice warheads appear to have hit the target. American carriers are over 300 meters long, although the smaller carriers (amphibious ships with helicopter decks) are closer to 200 meters long. It appears China is planning on using the DF-21D against smaller warships, or perhaps they just wanted to see exactly how accurate the missile could be.

    Over the last three years various components of the DF-21D were tested, but until these satellite photos showed up there was no evidence that there had been any tests of the complete system against a carrier size target. In the last two years there have been photos of DF-21Ds on TELs (transporter erector launcher vehicles), and announcements of the first units activated three years ago. Now we have the tests. What has not been tested, apparently, is a “dress rehearsal” test against a large ship (an old tanker or container ship would do) at sea and moving. That might yet happen.

    Meanwhile, China has three "remote sensing" satellites in orbit, moving in formation at an altitude of 600 kilometers across the Pacific. Equipped with either radar (SAR or synthetic aperture radar) or digital cameras, these three birds can scan the ocean for ships, even though the Chinese say their purpose is purely scientific. A typical SAR can produce photo quality images at different resolutions. At medium resolution (3 meters) the radar covers an area 40x40 kilometers. Low resolution (20 meters) covers 100x100 kilometers. This three satellite Chinese posse looks suspiciously like a military ocean surveillance system. This is the missing link for the Chinese ballistic missile system designed to attack American aircraft carriers.

    China has been developing the DF-21D for about a decade. Most of the development effort was devoted to targeting systems that would enable them to seek out and find aircraft carriers. On the DF-21D warhead itself, sensors would use infrared (heat seeking) technology for their final approach. This sort of thing had been discussed for decades, but China appears to have put together tactics, sensors, and missile systems that can make this all happen. The key was having multiple sensor systems which would include satellites, submarines, or maritime patrol aircraft that could find the general location of the carrier before launching the ballistic missile. Those sensors appear to be operational, as is the DF-21D itself.

    The Chinese Second Artillery Force (sometimes called Corps) operates all land based long range ballistic missiles. Its units operate over several provinces it has been expanding over the last few years. This includes adding two brigades armed with theDF-21D. This gives the Second Artillery Force ten DF-21 brigades, plus brigades with several other types of missiles. Each of the DF-21 missile brigades has six missile battalions (with two mobile launchers each), two maintenance and repair battalions, a site management battalion, a signal battalion, and an electronic countermeasures (ECM) battalion. The other eight DF-21 brigades in the Second Artillery Corps are the older models.

    Chinese Carrier Killer Works
     
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  3. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

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    the first experiment of DF21 was carried out in 2011,before President Hu visited USA.

    PLA successful suck the sailing target,Yuanwang 4 detector ship,with DF21.
    here is Yuanwang 4.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  4. average american

    average american Senior Member Senior Member

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    It was inevitable, I am of the opinion aircraft carriers are obsolete but this type missile should be pretty easier for the Aegis t ype ships to defeat.
     
  5. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    You finally have pictures I want to see and now I can't see them. :rolleyes:
     
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  6. s002wjh

    s002wjh Senior Member Senior Member

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    ill believe it when china done a live fire test in the ocean that sink an actual moving tanker or something like that
     
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  7. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

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    Do you believe that chIna will do it just to make you believe it?
     
  8. roma

    roma NRI in Europe Senior Member

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    ditto -not trying to pip you past the post on this one - i have always maintained that it is an obsolete concept in defence planning - and much more emphasis should have been placed on long -duration nuke powered submarines remaining submerged for long duration and carrying nuke capable icbm's - one of that is worth 6 or 7 AC's . and costs less ...... time for us to give Admiral Gorskoff a time limit and price limit otherwise we walk out of the negotiations room and leave the half-renovated AC in the docks - leave it out to dry !
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2013
  9. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

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    AC is useful to police mission such as bullying mid-size or small-size countries or escorting sealanes.

    but it is not much useful to total war between major powers such as USA ,Russia and CHina.

    in total war between major powers, all AC groups would't survive one week after war were to break out.
     
  10. sayareakd

    sayareakd Moderator Moderator

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    :kite:

    [​IMG]

    it was hit by this super weapon and ship was supposed to be sink and it was towed to the harbor for inspection :rofl:

    [​IMG]
     
  11. DivineHeretic

    DivineHeretic Senior Member Senior Member

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    Thats being extremely naive to the demands of modern war. First and foremost you need to be able to detect and track the fleet, a very difficult task in itself. Till now, only the US sat have demonstrated a real time detection and tracking capability with simultaneous feed to ground/Ship stations. And this is extremely necessary for attempting to target beyond radar range moving platforms.

    A CBG will not be anywhere less than 700 km from the shore. And in case you didn't notice, each CBG maintains a massive tracking radius around the fleet, with Sat based, AWE&CS based and finally Ship based radar sweeps overlapping to create the densest air defence grid possible.

    While it is not impossible to overwhelm the defences onboard the CBG, it will extract a massive chunk of missile stockpile to attempt. Each AAW DDG (the CBG escort DDGs are AAW oriented) operating the Aegis AD system each can carry 96 tomahawks or 96 SAMs, and there could be as many as 4-6DDGs performing escort role in a CBG. Thats 384-576 SAMs that can be carried. And then there are the AAMs carried by the fighter wing onboard the Carrier. With even 10 AC in CAPs role around the outer perimeter of the fleet defence, thats 40-60 more missiles that can counter CMs, especially the sub-sonic ones.

    Assuming 2 missiles per CM, you'd still need ~210-220 CMs to attempt to breakthrough the cover. And lest you forget, entire AC loaded with explosives crashed into the WWII carriers, and yet they managed to survive and conduct operations. It will take more than a couple of AShM hits to cripple the modern 100,000 ton Carriers of the USNs.

    If by your definition 300m odd Carriers with such a massive defence are easy pluckings, a 150-160m long DDG (Type -52D/P-15A), a 180m long LHD(Mistral), 140m FFG(P-17/Type 54) are all childs play, since they are not exactly small (50% or more in length in comparison to CVN-65), and most definitely do not posses a AD capability comparable to the CBG. Hell the entire Surface fleet should be disbanded.

    Now that means that the PLAN are first rate idiots, for building surface ships. That don't sound like something you should want to say. Your job might depend on it.
     
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  12. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    Well I think the Americans are comfortably ahead in nuclear ballistic and strategic submarines than China, both in numbers and quality. Should all the ACs of the American 7th Fleet are sunk then rest assure that American strategic submarines can destroy all major Chinese cities many times over using nuclear tipped sub-launched ballistic missiles. Of course China can also lob nukes at USA...
     
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  13. K Factor

    K Factor A Concerned Indian Senior Member

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    Yawn, and I am Elvis Presley.
    Let me know when a test hits a moving target at sea whose position is constantly changing and is protected by mobile BMD (AEGIS).
     
  14. badguy2000

    badguy2000 Respected Member Senior Member

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    you are so naieve ,guy.however, once a war to break out between USA and CHina,


    1.all satellites would be the primary targets and destroyed several days later.
    the precondition of yankees weapons's nomally working is satellites and GPS....without GPS and satellites, USA would lose most precise-strike capacity

    2. radar, Ageis system and other electronic can be easily destroyed by EMB
    and even if EMB were to explode dozens of miles away, all electronic facilites such as radars would be disabled.

    in fact, Yankee's war machine depends on satellites and electronic facilties too much ,which is in face is very fragile....
    the weakness has not be shown,just because few countries,except Russia and China,can destroy yankees satellite-based C4ISR
     
  15. AVERAGE INDIAN

    AVERAGE INDIAN EXORCIST Senior Member

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    i) China as well as America has so much as stake in the presence world stage

    ii) Threatening to dump or in fact dump the American bonds would cause America tremendous damage almost irreparable at almost a fraction of the costs and risks. Of course China would almost suffered tremendous monetary damage as well.

    iii) China would lose the largest export market in the world.

    iv) As China is a "stakeholder" of the world, surely China would not want a world war unless she was threatened or her sovereignty integrity is challenged . The same would also applied to America as well.

    why all this hooplah about carrier sinking missiles.
    if they want to sink carriers it just takes a well coordinated nuke missile there is no need for it to hit bulls eye on carrier any country with a nuke missile can do this

    forgot to add this will the US just sit and watch their CBG getting nuked nor will the Chinese sit and watch some 1000's of nuclear warheads raining over them??
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2013
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  16. DivineHeretic

    DivineHeretic Senior Member Senior Member

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    Now who's caught up in fantasy land, or did you just receive a fresh batch of grade A opium.

    If US loses its GPS/satellite capability, do you imagine yours will remain operational? The first strikes by USAF/USN will be on communication and AD networks, as demonstrated since 1991. You'd be lucky to even maintain rudimentary communication ability, let alone finding a carrier battle group for EMP strike.

    And by the way, did you know that all US military electronics must be certified and hardened against EMP attacks? This is a mandatory part of equipment testing. The only way you'd be able to fry these electronics is using a nuke based EMP, but then all bets are off. US recognises EMP attacks in the form of nukes as Nuclear attacks, and then God help you.

    Amd btw, how do you propose to destroy communication satellites, these orbit at 36k km above the Earth. Your AntiSat tests were at 400km. And even if you did manage, the AWACS fleet, the SIGINT AC and several other aerial platforms can takeover as communication nodes.

    And just in case you didnt know, In Bosnian war and in Kosovo intervention, the US scrambled the GPS signals over the region. Yet they managed to conduct precision strikes and co-ordinated assaults, both with tomahawks, the B1 and the Nighthawks, didn't they? Or did their ACs and missiles suddenly began falling out of the sky?
     
  17. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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    The Navy's Modified X-47B Unmanned Drone - Business Insider

     
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  18. average american

    average american Senior Member Senior Member

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    US has enought nuclear submarines to lauch about 3000 nuclear war heads now. I doubt if this advance in technology is going to make aircraft carriers obsolete, but where the carriers are valuable they are the only way to project power out side of your own country if oceans are involved.
     
  19. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    If a ship is hit by a ballistic missile, even without a warhead, it should be at the bottom of the sea. The KE would cut it like a knife through butter. :lol:
     
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  20. sayareakd

    sayareakd Moderator Moderator

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    I think Chinese are learning from Pakistani Madersa Education system.
     
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