Chinese bullet train a bust

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Koji

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Since the normal rail lines are being shut down, we can expect that farmers will be flying instead of taking high-speed rail.



That may be how it works in China, but in France the TGV is all about making a profit. If a line doesn't make money, they shut it down.
Big public services often exist despite running in the red. The Shinkansen system in Japan flirts with bankruptcy and the AMTRAK system in the US is unprofitable and only remains b/c of US subsidies.
 

Yusuf

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I see that BG out on the bench. But mate, no one talked about india here. Were just discussing about the chinese bullet service. Like I said before even india will get them once the feasibility and viability is established. And who said we missed the railway era in your words? We have had railways since 1853 introduced by the british and still running strong. I don't believe the express way era is over as yet and india is building them.
 

Singh

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if the Chinese can build bullet trains they neigh well can ensure its success to.
such projects are not meant to be profitable but to showcase to the world and take infrastructural capabilities to the next level and on both counts Chinese have succeeded with this.
 

no smoking

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Actually, I think you guys are missing a basic point in china's infrastructural policy here: infrastructural building is not aimed at profitability but the whole society efficiency. They believe that the loss in infrastructure itself will be paid off by the growth of other economic department caused by this infrastructure.
 

mattster

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Eventually all countries in the world will go to high speed trains. Its a huge investment but a lot cleaner and faster.
Considering the mess that air travel is becoming in terms of security screening/delays, parking charges, etc., - it is only a matter of time.

As I said earlier in this post, the Chinese bullet train is not a bust - they just need a longer period to amortize and recover their investment.
The fares will certainly come down. Its way too early to make comments abut this issue. 10 years from now we can talk about whether it is a success or not.

As far as high-speed train are concerned, it doesnt matter who starts first. I think even the US is looking at high-speed trains now to overcome road traffic gridlock.
Even India will eventually get it.
 

Agantrope

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Still china has the guts to do that, to reduce air-traffic and pollution.
In India the high-speed Railway are susceptible to sabotages by the terrorists. Corridors like
Chennai-Bengalru
Mumbai-Pune-Nagpur
Delhi-Jaipur
Koklatta-Patna
Hyderabad-Cuttack are possible areas identified as good revenue collecting corridor. But fruitification may takes decade.

P.S i have had the source link but not now, I'll get that
 
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Armand2REP

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China express train forces airlines to stop flights
Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:06am EDT


BEIJING, March 26 (Reuters) - A new high-speed rail link between two inland Chinese cities has cut travel times so dramatically that all competing air services on the route have been suspended, state media said.

The suspension of flights between the gritty industrial city of Zhengzhou and Xian, home of the Terracotta Warriors, came just 48 days after the express railway began operations, the official Xinhua news agency said on Friday.

The 505 km (314 miles) railway, on which trains run at a top speed of 350 km per hour, has cut the travel time between the two cities from more than six hours to less than two, the report said. By contrast, flying takes just over an hour. Xian's airport is also located at least an hour away by road from downtown.

Before the railway opened, Joy Air, one of the domestic airlines flying the route, managed to sell an average of more than 60 percent of seats for the route, Xinhua said.

Zhengzhou airport confirmed that all flights to and from Xian had now stopped, the report added.

China is spending billions of dollars on a network of high-speed railways, including one from Beijing to the country's financial capital Shanghai, posing a challenge to airlines which had profited from China's vast size and slow roads and trains.

By 2012, China would have more than 13,000 km of high-speed railway, Xinhua said.

"By then, 60 percent of China's domestic air market will be affected by the high-speed railways," Liu Chaoyong, general manager of China Eastern Airlines (600115.SS) (0670.HK), was quoted as saying.

China Eastern last year agreed to sell 35 percent of Joy Air, in which it held 40 percent, to state-owned Aviation Industry Corp of China.

http://www.reuters.com/article/industrialsSector/idUSTOE62P04E20100326

__________________________________

Now CCP has to cut airlines to try to fill up their empty trains. So much for competition. clap
 

amoy

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China express train forces airlines to stop flights
There has been some discount airlines in serious trouble mainly private, like u mentioned, yet mostly due to their mal-managment or operations.
since HSR is targeting 'mid' or 'short' distance passengers airlines still may find their room for growth so long as they adjust their deployment and strategy properly.

Take myself for example it takes probably 5hrs from here to Shanghai by HSR. Then I may still opt for air fare for its competitive price (time: 1hr flight + local traffic+ checkin time) at around rmb 200+ only. In comparison I may prefer HSR to airline within my province from where I live (the capital) to the other main commercial city (distance 270km,1-1.5hr by HSR).

Consumers are making their choice and competition is at our advantge.
 

Armand2REP

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Cut the bull guy, it is obvious CCP is cutting conventional rail and airlines to force people to take the high speed rail.
 

amoy

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Cut the bull guy, it is obvious CCP is cutting conventional rail and airlines to force people to take the high speed rail.
suggest u do some analysis and observe it objectively.

China is vast. therefore HSR and airlines have to differentiate their products for different segments of travellers.

by the way do u forget airlines are mostly state-owned in China? don't make yrself a laughing stock by asserting 'to force people to take the high speed rail' blah blah.

China isn't a Utopia where CCP passes out train tickets for freee (though I'd love it).
 

Armand2REP

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suggest u do some analysis and observe it objectively.

China is vast. therefore HSR and airlines have to differentiate their products for different segments of travellers.
HSR is in direct competition with regional airlines, so CCP cuts flights to put more butts in seats to make HSR viable at the expense of airlines. Also cut the other train routes for same purpose as stated in the OP.

by the way do u forget airlines are mostly state-owned in China? don't make yrself a laughing stock by asserting 'to force people to take the high speed rail' blah blah.
Are you daft mate? All of it is owned by CCP who isn't concerned with competition. Their only concern is filling up their new wonder trains.

China isn't a Utopia where CCP passes out train tickets for freee (though I'd love it).
They passed out free tickets for migrants during Spring Festival and cut student tickets in half.
 

amoy

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They passed out free tickets for migrants during Spring Festival and cut student tickets in half.
great, that's sweet and humane in taking care of the needy though I didn't get that among those students or migrants
 

Armand2REP

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I can tell you exactly what the consequences of Chinese HSR are going to be. It will be the demise of the domestic chinese aviation sector. East Star has already been forced bankrupt and China Southern has cut 30% of service thanks to HSR. As the services expand, the rest will fall with the domino effect. Chinese first step into the commercial aviation is a regional airliner. The project will fail when Chinese regional airlines don't have any orders for them thanks to HSR stealing their business. You can thank that to Central Planning.

Nice job China... clap
 
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no smoking

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great, that's sweet and humane in taking care of the needy though I didn't get that among those students or migrants
You are wasting your time in arguing with Armand2REP on china problem. This guy knows nothing about China and he doesn't bother to do any research. The only reliable informations for him are those papers run by exiled chineses or Epoch times.
 

Armand2REP

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You are wasting your time in arguing with Armand2REP on china problem. This guy knows nothing about China and he doesn't bother to do any research. The only reliable informations for him are those papers run by exiled chineses or Epoch times.
Here are propoganda pictures of migrants with their free tickets.



 

nimo_cn

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LOL, this is THE MOST absurd , THE MOST hilarious argument i have ever heard.


During the Spring Festival, the total number of railway passenger trips reached 210 million. So how many free tickets did CCP distribute to the peasant workers?

As you pointed out, it was just a propaganda, but now this pure propaganda becomes an evidence that proves all railway passengers were subsidized by CCP?
LOL, you are easily brainwashed by CCP, CCP loves people like you! So innocent!
 
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badguy2000

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LOL, this is THE MOST absurd , THE MOST hilarious argument i have ever heard.


During the Spring Festival, the total number of railway passenger trips reached 210 million. So how many free tickets did CCP distribute to the peasant workers?

As you pointed out, it was just a propaganda, but now this pure propaganda becomes an evidence that proves all railway passengers were subsidized by CCP?
LOL, you are easily brainwashed by CCP, CCP loves people like you! So innocent!
the guy just accept the "truth" chozen by him.

all that are not chozen by him must be lied to him.
 

Armand2REP

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China slows HSR due to shoddy construction

China Slows High Speed Trains Amid Reports of Shoddy Construction

Will corruption derail China's $1T USD train gambit?

It sounded like a perfect plan -- high-speed trains that would carry passengers at speeds almost equivalent of commercial airplanes. But now, thanks to government corruption and quality issues, the project may never arrive at the station.

In February Liu Zhijun, the man in charge of China's $1T USD high-speed rail bid, was fired. Under investigation on corruption charges, the 58-year-old's departure signaled the start of some major questions about the future of the project, which seeks to lay down as much track, in length, as a third of America's interstate highway system.

This month, amid rumors of trains almost literally derailing, China's Railways Ministry announced that it would be dropping the top speed of trains from 218 mph to 186 mph. It would not comment on safety concerns other than to say the issues were "severe". The slowdown drops China from having the world's fastest trains to being in a virtual tie with Europe and Japan.

It also announced plans to slow construction and drop ticket prices in order to try to close a budget deficit. The Railways Ministry owes $276B USD to Chinese banks and failed to turn a profit in the first three months of the year -- at a time when it was expected to be turning the corner.

Patrick Chovanec, a professor at Tsinghua University in China states in an interview with The Washington Post, "They've taken on a massive amount of debt to build it."

Zhao Jian, a professor at Beijing Jiaotong University, says the project could lead to bank failures. He states, "In China, we will have a debt crisis — a high-speed rail debt crisis. I think it is more serious than your subprime mortgage crisis. You can always leave a house or use it. The rail system is there. It's a burden. You must operate the rail system, and when you operate it, the cost is very high."

Some of the funds for the project have been going towards their intended purchase -- laying rail. Others have been going towards questionable expenditures like elegant glass and marble for the country's 295 train stations. And there are rumors of local officials, including a woman in Shanxi province, setting up companies to take kickbacks from contractors.

Officials on the Beijing-Shanghai line project are accused of accepting $28.5M USD in bribes. On top of that, the former Railways Ministry chief, Mr. Zhijun, stands accused of pocketing $122M USD.

"Engineers" working on the vital Beijing-to-Shanghai line actually had no credentials or formal education. And in March government officials also found scores of fake invoices, which resulted in the government paying for phantom work.

Much like the Chinese manufacturing industry's struggles, there are fears that contractors are also cutting corners with substandard materials.

In order to ensure safety, train tracks must be built with high quality fly ash, mixed with concrete. But contractors are suspected of using lower quality ash mixed with other substances, potentially compromising miles of track.

Despite having the world's second largest economy, China's average yearly per capita income of $4,300 USD is well below the world average, according to the International Monetary Fund. One of the biggest problems facing the train system is that the people of China are simply unable to pay the prices of tickets, which remain exorbitant by the nation's standards.

The government shut down older, cheaper slow train lines in a bid to get migrant workers to use the new lines. But the tickets were too expensive and the bid failed -- the workers turned to the bus system, clogging highways.

China will have another crack at it, next February when the migrant workers once again return home in a brief exodus. But it remains to be seen if the government has dropped prices enough to sell tickets -- and if it will be able to ensure the passengers safely reach their destination.

The Asian giant's struggles are of great interest to the U.S., which is contemplating a much smaller government-backed high-speed rail effort.

DailyTech - China Slows High Speed Trains Amid Reports of Shoddy Construction
 
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Daredevil

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A report by Japanese media on Chinese Bullet Train's Success (or rather lack of it)

 
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