Chinese 600KM/H High Speed Train

cinoti

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What is the average cost for Beijing-Shanghai by HSR as compared to air, in RMB for different classes(1st, business). @rockdog or @J20!
From 1740 RMB to 410 RMB

  时速300公里动车组列车: 300km/h car

二等座 555元 second class 555 rmb

  一等座 935元 frist class 935 rmb

  商务座 1750元 business class (China railway put business class as express luxury class) 1750 rmb

  时速250公里动车组列车: 250km/h car

二等座 410元 second class 410

  一等座 650元 first class 650

Airfare differs a lot based on peak and carriers discount, but average regular ticket of Beijing-Shanghai of economic class is around 1100 rmb .
 
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cloud

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@cloud

I'm thinking you aren't a Banglorean. We have a massive number of Volvo buses that cater to daily public transportation needs in the city. The first city to have hitech buses in India for intra city use. The Volvos are expensive to use, but it always runs at beyond full occupancy during rush hours. So, this example is very good for an expensive service that was lapped up regardless of the cost.
@rockdog

I am not sure if HSR can also handle cargo, but if it did, they it makes a lot of sense for a country like India. Ports take forever to transfer cargo. Railways is still a highly preferred means of transport for cargo here.

Anyway, we don't have the economy today to implement this technology. The plans for HSR in India are over 10 years+ and by then we will have an economy that is equivalent or bigger than your economy today.
Ahh ok, I confused it with other, I have lived in Bangalore, lets says even in that case, I really don't find it useful, its more due to the reason that many wants to get into the next bus that stops at the bus stop rather then waiting for for Volvo, off-course due to price factor Volvos will have rather less rush then general buses and some working class people/ladies may wait and they prefer going comfortably. But lets say if we had twice the number of local buses to that of Volovs introduced with good seats, where everyone could get into the bus and get the seat easily. Would you still prefer paying twice the amount for daily commute? although the example of bus is not that good.

But lets say instead of the spending money on Volvos if the infra was to be developed so that there is no 30 mins traffice jams at kormangala or inner ring road signal.

So now we don't have AC buses, but now we can travel in Local buses with almost same comfort but in half the time(except the noisy environment, which will also be reduced with better infra).

As I said AC bus example is not that good, as it is very limited in area with much lesser investment and can't really offset the cost of infra. Same is not true with the HSR. Here even to connect the 2 major cites via HSR the amount will be huge, For the same amount the existing infra can be developed so that instead of just 2 cities connectivity we can have 10s of major towns and small cities around those 2 big cities connected with say 200 kmph speed. The important thing here is that In a country like India we will not be able to develop HSR having speed more then 400KMPH and in most cases it will be around 300 kmph, because you need to have more stops and certainly routes will not be that straight that are needed to go beyond 350-400 kmph. So again which will be better paying 500 for a general sleeper seat and travel for 15 hours in a 200 KMPH train near to your village/town or spend 2000/- for HSR seat and travel for 10 hours then get off that HSR station(which will be mostly a big city) and then take another local train/bus for your hometown?

Also regarding the goods transportation, will you prefer sending 10 tons of sugar via 200kmph train at 1000/- which will reach next day into other part of the country or via HSR at 5000/- but it will reach in little more then half the time. For goods time is not at all the factor as it can be adjusted with the model(means if the consumer need it tomorrow then you can plan to send it a few hours early via a slow train but at much cheaper price.)
 
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p2prada

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You have given a one off example.

There are only two facts that I know of about Bangalore. Bangalore roads suck, traffic sucks. Volvo is a boon, not that I travel a lot by bus. It was expensive but convenient and hence was lapped up by the general populace even though it costs twice as much. It also depends on bus routes, but people do not think twice about paying that little extra.

Getting to the airport in Bangalore from the city center is 2 hours on a good day. Getting to cities like Mysore is 1.5-2 hours by road and Chennai is 4 hours by road. By air it is 1.5 - 2 hours to Chennai, but 2 hours just to get to the airport. So, it is equal to road travel. If HSR halves the road trip duration to Mysore and Chennai, then every Tom, Dick and Harry is going to use it like a local train. That's why the HSR is good news for Bangalore. If the HSR is extended to North Karnataka and to other cities in TN, then it will be very successful. People are there to pay for it.

Small towns won't see HSR so quickly, of course. So, no point using HSR if travel time exceeds regular services. Well, you just use common sense here, unless you don't get any tickets directly to your hometown on bad days. In 20-30 years, we may see HSR everywhere, like regular rail. It will end up becoming an inconvenience if your town is not connected by HSR. Well, your PoV may change depending on your lifespan of course. You may not want to wait 30 years to see the HSR, but who cares, the country is expected to survive longer after all. These are all plans for the long run. We may not see a HSR for another 10 years from today.
 

cinoti

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You have given a one off example.

There are only two facts that I know of about Bangalore. Bangalore roads suck, traffic sucks. Volvo is a boon, not that I travel a lot by bus. It was expensive but convenient and hence was lapped up by the general populace even though it costs twice as much. It also depends on bus routes, but people do not think twice about paying that little extra.

Getting to the airport in Bangalore from the city center is 2 hours on a good day. Getting to cities like Mysore is 1.5-2 hours by road and Chennai is 4 hours by road. By air it is 1.5 - 2 hours to Chennai, but 2 hours just to get to the airport. So, it is equal to road travel. If HSR halves the road trip duration to Mysore and Chennai, then every Tom, Dick and Harry is going to use it like a local train. That's why the HSR is good news for Bangalore. If the HSR is extended to North Karnataka and to other cities in TN, then it will be very successful. People are there to pay for it.

Small towns won't see HSR so quickly, of course. So, no point using HSR if travel time exceeds regular services. Well, you just use common sense here, unless you don't get any tickets directly to your hometown on bad days. In 20-30 years, we may see HSR everywhere, like regular rail. It will end up becoming an inconvenience if your town is not connected by HSR. Well, your PoV may change depending on your lifespan of course. You may not want to wait 30 years to see the HSR, but who cares, the country is expected to survive longer after all. These are all plans for the long run. We may not see a HSR for another 10 years from today.

It sounds like maglev suits your case best, why not do it once for all, Japan is building their 500KM/h maglev now, you can ask low interests loans from Japan and build maglevs together with them, it is a win-win.

Also, HSR are not for small towns, even Chinese ones don't stop at small towns, Beijing-Shanghai for example, it is 1318 KM but only stops at 20 stations.
 
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cinoti

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Ahh ok, I confused it with other, I have lived in Bangalore, lets says even in that case, I really don't find it useful, its more due to the reason that many wants to get into the next bus that stops at the bus stop rather then waiting for for Volvo, off-course due to price factor Volvos will have rather less rush then general buses and some working class people/ladies may wait and they prefer going comfortably. But lets say if we had twice the number of local buses to that of Volovs introduced with good seats, where everyone could get into the bus and get the seat easily. Would you still prefer paying twice the amount for daily commute? although the example of bus is not that good.

But lets say instead of the spending money on Volvos if the infra was to be developed so that there is no 30 mins traffice jams at kormangala or inner ring road signal.

So now we don't have AC buses, but now we can travel in Local buses with almost same comfort but in half the time(except the noisy environment, which will also be reduced with better infra).

As I said AC bus example is not that good, as it is very limited in area with much lesser investment and can't really offset the cost of infra. Same is not true with the HSR. Here even to connect the 2 major cites via HSR the amount will be huge, For the same amount the existing infra can be developed so that instead of just 2 cities connectivity we can have 10s of major towns and small cities around those 2 big cities connected with say 200 kmph speed. The important thing here is that In a country like India we will not be able to develop HSR having speed more then 400KMPH and in most cases it will be around 300 kmph, because you need to have more stops and certainly routes will not be that straight that are needed to go beyond 350-400 kmph. So again which will be better paying 500 for a general sleeper seat and travel for 15 hours in a 200 KMPH train near to your village/town or spend 2000/- for HSR seat and travel for 10 hours then get off that HSR station(which will be mostly a big city) and then take another local train/bus for your hometown?

Also regarding the goods transportation, will you prefer sending 10 tons of sugar via 200kmph train at 1000/- which will reach next day into other part of the country or via HSR at 5000/- but it will reach in little more then half the time. For goods time is not at all the factor as it can be adjusted with the model(means if the consumer need it tomorrow then you can plan to send it a few hours early via a slow train but at much cheaper price.)
Maglev works best in this case, if you think that goes too far, light rails will do the charm. it is lifted from ground, travels faster than any car on the regular road.

China's light rail, this one is in Chongqing, Chongqing has a hilly layout, with some wide rivers and canals, light rail serves as transit public transportation, very econmoic and easy to maintain.

This one is in Wuhan, Wuhan is also a city full of river and lakes, under a lot of pressure of traffic, light rail is a good solution.
 
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cloud

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you are right about the part that it is not for near future, But I don't see the full HSR conversion even in next 50 years. Hence the next step is to upgrade the existing infra throughout India. Also regarding the part of every tom dick and harry, they will use it simply because 3 hours normal existing train journey has be to done in general compartment with most of the time no seats, you may have to stand in the line for an hour, train timing also not fixed...While new HSR will have 5 times more cost, but you will get the SEAT and when needed. That is actually more important factor.

Now if you are calculating the time, then it will take minimum one hours to reach railway station, so it will be 1(from to railway station)+2.5 (normal local train)+1(to station to your final destination) = 4.5 hours, if the existing infra to be developed(i. e. no waiting in line, seat availability, track up-gradation to support higher speeds in line of 200Kmph), which will be at a fraction of cost of new HSR layout. In case of HSR now one would have to pay 5 times more for the reduction of hardly 1 hour( total =3.5 hours). Yes many people will use HSR because the current system is not being utilized efficiently, that's what needs to done first before jumping into the other system.
 

cinoti

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In Saudi, this one did not make any profit though, Saudi is very strict on imported labor, they cannot build the rail but since this rail is a Mecca pilgrimage rail,
we have to sent out Chinese Muslim engineers and workers to help them to build the line.
 

cinoti

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you are right about the part that it is not for near future, But I don't see the full HSR conversion even in next 50 years. Hence the next step is to upgrade the existing infra throughout India. Also regarding the part of every tom dick and harry, they will use it simply because 3 hours normal existing train journey has be to done in general compartment with most of the time no seats, you may have to stand in the line for an hour, train timing also not fixed...While new HSR will have 5 times more cost, but you will get the SEAT and when needed. That is actually more important factor.

Now if you are calculating the time, then it will take minimum one hours to reach railway station, so it will be 1(from to railway station)+2.5 (normal local train)+1(to station to your final destination) = 4.5 hours, if the existing infra to be developed(i. e. no waiting in line, seat availability, track up-gradation to support higher speeds in line of 200Kmph), which will be at a fraction of cost of new HSR layout. In case of HSR now one would have to pay 5 times more for the reduction of hardly 1 hour( total =3.5 hours). Yes many people will use HSR because the current system is not being utilized efficiently, that's what needs to done first before jumping into the other system.
You can combine bus, light rail and underground together to form a city metro.
Beijing and Shanghai are working on that, Beijing in 2020 will have an integrated city transit system, now with one card you can take any thing including taxi, but by 2020,.they are going to merge underground and light rail with a conformed system.
 
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cinoti

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Chinese light rail in Hanoi
 
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cloud

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^^ yeah right, but the problem here is completely different if you have to travel in train without reservation. Which is actually the life line of the country, unless the existing infra develops, the money spent on just one HSR route which will serve the purpose for hardly 1% of local population, can be better utilized for the betterment of whole system where it will serve whole population of much greater area.
 
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cinoti

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^^ yeah right, but the problem here is completely different if you have to travel in train without reservation. Which is actually the life line of the country, unless the existing infra develops, the money spent on just one HSR route which will serve the purpose for hardly 1% of local population, can be better utilized for the betterment of whole system where it will serve all the population of much greater area.
Well use this then:

this is the lastest version of so called super-Capacitance, you don't need to worry about the power grid, this one runs on capacitance, what you need is to build up
your elevated route, I don't believe that is a problem for Indian since so many Indian worked over seas on construction. you have enough skilled workers and engineers.
 

cinoti

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Hu inspect Hainan LR

Hai Nan Province east line

this light rail actually covers the whole east coast of Hainan Province
it will be build into an around island system.

with this capacity, any indian metropolitan area can be covered.
 

cinoti

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We have 20 cities in China that has at least one LR system or inter city LR system
First LRYear City Line
(1969) Beijing 15
(1995) Shanghai 11
(1998) GuangZhou 8
(2004) ShenZhen 5
(2005) Chong Qing 4
(2006) Tianjin 4
(2002) Dalian 2
(2002) Changchun 2
(2005) Nanjing 2、
(2010) ChengDu 2
(2005) Wuhan 1
(2010) Foshan 1
(2010) Shenyang 1
(2011) Xi'an 1

this year, we have WenChang, Haikou, San Ya, Zhuhai..... all under construction
those began to operate:
(2012) Kunming 1
(2012) Suzhou 1、
(2012) Haerbin 1
(2012) Hangzhou 1
 

cinoti

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Haerbin LR/Metro
http://img3.**************/uploadfiles/images/2008/11/01/01105454745.jpg
Shenzhen intercity

Nanjing, I don't know if this is a artistic impression picture,but this city has two lines of light rails

Shenyang-Fushun intercity
 

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