China's United Nations Security Council Permanent Veto constrains China

Discussion in 'China' started by Martian, Jul 14, 2016.

  1. Martian

    Martian Respected Member Senior Member

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    China has a permanent veto at the United Nations Security Council for obvious reasons.

    1. China is the world's second-largest country in land area (source: World Bank).
    2. China consumes the most energy per year (source: BP).
    3. China is the world's largest exporter and trading nation.
    4. China is the world's largest manufacturer and consumer of machine tools. (source: Gardner)
    5. China adds the most industrial robots per year and will have the world's largest installed base of industrial robots at the end of this year (source: IFR).
    6. China has the world's largest foreign exchange reserves.
    7. China ranks second in the world each year in producing Nature science articles. (source: Nature Index)
    8. And so on...

    Anyway, China's exceptionalism has earned it a permanent veto at the UNSC. The permanent veto grants tremendous power and privileges.

    However, the permanent veto also constrains China's ability to exercise its military power.

    By accepting the privilege of the permanent veto, China has implicitly agreed not to use its military power without the approval of the United Nations Security Council.

    Here's how it works. The US wants to bomb Syria's Assad into oblivion. It can't. China uses its veto to deny UNSC authorization for an attack on Syria's Assad.

    Now, let's look at the double-edged sword. China pays the price for the UNSC veto power.

    China is tempted to annex Vietnam. It removes an annoying thorn. Treat the Vietnamese like Palestinians and take over 2,000 miles of Vietnamese beaches. It would be nice to have a Chinese Florida.

    However, China cannot annex Vietnam. It has to follow the same rules as the United States.

    Since the United States' military power is constrained by China's permanent veto, China's military power is equally constrained by the US permanent veto. This maintains world stability and avoids direct military confrontation between the two great powers.

    Thus, China will always have a permanent veto at the United Nations Security Council. The US intends to constrain Chinese military expansionism by using the American veto at the United Nations Security Council.

    China does not want the US overthrowing African countries, like Zimbabwe's Mugabe.

    The US doesn't want China annexing one Southeast Asian country after another.

    Hence, both sides have compromised with a UNSC permanent veto. You don't move and I don't move. Thus, we have the current status quo in the world. It's pretty dull and not much happens.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2016
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  3. Martian

    Martian Respected Member Senior Member

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    1946 First meeting of United Nations Security Council
    1947 India becomes an independent country.
    1949 PRC wins Chinese civil war against KMT
    1971 Taiwan kicked out of the UN. PRC assumes Chinese permanent veto.

    As you can see, the People's Republic of China acquired the UNSC permanent veto despite coming into existence two years after India.

    The countries of the world wanted to give the permanent veto to mainland China in 1971. They also want China to keep the permanent veto. That's why it's funny to read Indian comments about stripping the permanent veto from China. It will never happen. The PRC UNSC permanent veto is designed to constrain Chinese military power.

    Those same countries of the world have refused to give the permanent veto to India.
     
  4. Mikesingh

    Mikesingh Senior Member Senior Member

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    Your argument leaks like a sieve!

    How about the invasion of Iraq? The US went in without UN approval.
    How about the invasion of Afghanistan? The US went in without UN approval.
    So the question of a veto doesn't arise.

    Further, the military campaign in Afghanistan was not specifically mandated by the UN, but was widely (although not universally) perceived to be a legitimate form of self-defence under the UN Charter.

    Article 2(4) of the UN Charter prohibits the “threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state.” However, the accepted exceptions to this are where the security council authorises military action or where it is in self-defence under Article 51 of the Charter.

    So your contention that China or the US cannot attack any country without UN approval is incorrect, even if either one vetoes it. They can under Article 51 by calling it 'self defence'.

    So, shall we say to China: Bash on regardless where the South China Sea is concerned as all your offensive actions will be considered by you to be taken under Article 51 of the UN Charter, ie., in 'self defence'.
     
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  5. Martian

    Martian Respected Member Senior Member

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    The US invasion of Iraq was conducted under the authority of a previous UNSC resolution. Sadaam refused to comply in disarming and he violated the UNSC resolution.

    Afghanistan was self-defense, because of the World Trade Center bombing. Self-defense does not need authorization. It's reasonable.
     
  6. Indx TechStyle

    Indx TechStyle Perfaarmance Naarmal Senior Member

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    Well, whatever you say, if small countries like France and UK can become permanent members of UNSC, why not India?:biggrin2:
    India is well ahead of France and UK's conventional forces in numbers, seventh largest country, 2nd most populated, 7th largest economy(that even growing fastest among G20s, soon will be third),
    Nuclear triad to be operational in few months officially with SLBMs(who knows unofficially :p), LRBMs(will have operational ICBM next year), a very vibrant space program, only non NPT signatory with non proliferation record, IT hub and so on.
    Give us few years wavier for tests and we will show H-Bombs too.
    You can list of merits of China (though adding Robots or writing nature articles is unrelated to UNSC), I can research and list up merits of India.
    It's rule who is stopping India's bid in NSG not China.
    Indians are immoral opportunist. They don't know how to play great games.

    Did you remember something?:sarcasm:
    @amoy
    Immoral India could easily deny UNCLOS decision in favour of Bangladesh (@rockey 71) but they followed, moral China denied even under diplomatic pressure.
    Breaking rules isn't power projection, it is how civil soul you are.

    Remember, Russia was kicked out of G8.
    Who's UN to enforce law in SCS?
    Disciplined souls know to follow rules and making undisciplined souls to follow the suit.
    US, India, Japan Begin Malabar Joint Naval Exercise Close To SCS
    @asianobserve Check out the ancient map of China. And land greedy communists like @Martian are calling themselves large country.:lol:
    Territories_of_Dynasties_in_China.gif
    Larger communist country(aka hell) than India, but truth prevails. Most of Chinese population is still there in Eastern Part.:lol:
     
  7. Indx TechStyle

    Indx TechStyle Perfaarmance Naarmal Senior Member

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  8. Martian

    Martian Respected Member Senior Member

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    There are two reasons that Britain and France are part of the UNSC.

    Firstly, Britain and France almost always vote in tandem with the United States. Thus, they are mere appendages of the US.

    Secondly, Britain and France obtained their seats on the UNSC under a grandfather-type law. Since Britain and France were strong naval powers in the past, they were able to obtain a UNSC veto at the end of World War II.

    Finally, the US, China, and Russia have not made a concerted effort to kick Britain and France out of the UNSC. The US wants its two little allies to vote along with the US. China understands the Europeans do not have an independent policy. Thus, it matters not whether the US has one vote or three votes.

    ----------

    However, all of the factors that allowed Britain and France to sit on the UNSC do not apply to India.

    The world does not recognize India as a major power.

    Thus, India has failed repeatedly in its quest for a permanent UNSC seat.

    As I have enumerated, there are many weaknesses that India probably cannot overcome.

    In modern times, the countries of the world will not permit another UNSC seat without superlative qualifications.

    1. India is simply too small a country. With a landmass of only 1/3rd of China, you are not China's equal.

    2. India is constantly antagonizing China. Since China holds an existing permanent veto, China will keep vetoing India's attempt to obtain a UNSC seat.

    3. India is an incredibly poor country. China's nominal per-capita GDP is five times higher than India's.

    4. China's technology is light-years ahead of India's. China's semiconductor fab technology is at 28nm. India has ZERO semiconductor fabs. Your technology is NO nanometers.

    As you can see, India is extremely unlikely to ever obtain a UNSC permanent veto.
     
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  9. Indx TechStyle

    Indx TechStyle Perfaarmance Naarmal Senior Member

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    So, what else we have been saying?
    Change the old law, recognize new world unless this body becomes irrelevant itself.
    World? Or it's only you?
    India has support of most countries among G4 and strongest bid among the 4.
    India has more than 60 countries supporting openly and 4 out 5 UNSC members favouring. This is happening like NSG.
    It can't overcome in this decade, not forever or UNSC irrevalent.
    But most of mentioned by you irrevalent.
    Sure, UK and France are giants.
    FYI, even an area of 1/3rd of China isn't small. Even with area of less than 3.29 square kilometres, India is called giant.
    And again, it's power what matters. If you have justify keeping India out, first push out France and UK.
    US, Russia and China are greatest powers on planet as of now.

    But that won't also work because as Indian Economy, defense budget and technical capability is growing fast with time, it will be there in same league as that US, Russia and China (in fact Russia will be powerless by then).
    That I've explained above.
    But just asking Global Times not to remind Indians about morality and rules in that case.
    UNSC will become nearly dysfunctional. Mark my words.
    FYI, GDP per capita is always measured in PPP and becomes necessary in case of India who's country with lowest cost of living in entire world. We have way higher HDI than most countries with same nominal GDP per capita.
    By the way,
    We have one of the highest GDP per capita growth rate enough to make us an upper middle income economy in 15 years.
    I just wanna ask, where did Chinese GDP per capita stood when it joined UNSC?
    Think over it.
    Moreover, India has reduced poverty ratio to 12.4%(some suggest 7.7%).
    Ask for sources if you want.
    As I said, most of your issues are unrelated to UNSC seat.
    We have no semiconductor plants because we didn't bother about it(production is not zero, we make it at small scale for scientific experiments, sometimes for satellites). We are now going to set up two plants in Prantji of Gujarat.
    But again it's unrelated, did China have semiconductor plants when it joined UNSC.
    Now, let me say,
    1. India has sent Mars mission and discovered water on Moon. Let's get in UNSC.:rofl:
    2. We have been building a neutrino observatory (to be completed very soon, end of this year or start of next year.) will have four times bigger magnet than CERN. Largest in the world and obviously way larger than Chinese neutrino detector. So, kindly give us UNSC seat.:lol:
    3. We are biggest exporter of Softwares, now give us UNSC seat.:haha:
    4. We have 4th largest train, second largest road network, we have invented Skybus Metro, we produce millions of two Wheelers, give us UNSC seat.:pound:
    5. We have 7th largest economy, fastest growing among top 20, 6th largest defense budget, 4th largest air force, third largest army, sixth largest Navy, nuclear weapons, chemical weapons, biological weapons, testing laser weapons and studying electromagnetic weapons, we have ICBMS, LRCMs, supersonic ABMs, nearly complete nuclear triad, ICBMs(more under development), developing hypersonic weapons, stealth warships, developing stealth planes, a vibrant space and R&D program, we are godfather of our region IOR where other local countries together can't challenge us, we have a nice non proliferation record, an active foreign policy and involve in issues of other countries for restoring peace. (This one has some substance. Hasn't it?:rolleyes:)
    LOL, in fact no one can stop India to get in UNSC except a Chinese veto and we will soon also solve a way out of it as well.

    Your all arguments are futile and baseless. But one thing I really will have to admit which Indiots lack and Chinkies in bulk.
    That's "Never give up" attitude.
    You know you are proved wrong in SCS (and you if still want to restore 2000 years glory by getting SCS, restore complete glory by leaving control of landmass which you hadn't 2000 years ago), you guys has no argument to prove yourself right, you gave argument of might is right and then, boasted over Indians of this might (continuously denying that India could do the same with veto power, do you seriously think India will ever challenge America with Nature Articles and Semiconductors? :rotflmao:).

    You got no correct explanation of keeping us out of UNSC, or proving India to be a small country (I have earlier explained in the map how China became large, if India also had such expansionist attitude, it would also have become way larger).
    So, you kept rotating it here and there. Really, you guys never give up.;)
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2016
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  10. Martian

    Martian Respected Member Senior Member

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    Well, let's make predictions and see who's right.

    I say India does not obtain a UNSC permanent veto in your lifetime or the next 200 years.

    That's my prediction.
     
  11. Indx TechStyle

    Indx TechStyle Perfaarmance Naarmal Senior Member

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    Either India will get in UNSC in less than 20 years, or UNSC will become irrelevalent body.
    You predict, I can bet.
     
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  12. Martian

    Martian Respected Member Senior Member

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    UNSC will always be important.

    UNSC has the US, China, and Russia.

    The US is the world's fourth largest country in land area, largest nominal GDP, and most advanced technologically.
    China is the world's second-largest country in land area, second largest nominal GDP, and second-most advanced technologically (e.g. the only other country that builds a true stealth fighter).
    Russia is the world's largest country in land area, very weak economically, and falling behind technologically.

    China and the US will always be relevant. This means the UNSC will be important during our lifetime.

    India does not have a say in world affairs. I know it seems unfair to you, but the real world is what it is.
     
  13. Indx TechStyle

    Indx TechStyle Perfaarmance Naarmal Senior Member

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    India has 7th largest area, second largest population, a notable tech (and look it's Japan who's best in tech, stealth fighter isn't alone determiner, we'll make that too), huge military and defense budget and soon will be 3rd largest economy.
    China and US will undoubtedly remain important but India too will be added as 2nd 3rd in first half and first or second half if century.
    If you say it's mere prediction, but that has a base, so is suggested.

    Otherwise compare Indian role in global affairs in 1974 (our first nuke test) and today. And look you said:
    You have again started. I can explain with huge collection of arguments.
    India has strong political power in world order (what we lack is veto) but we got wavier (exception) in NSG, membership of MTCR and we get a huge support whenever tried to enter any group. It's absurd to say India doesn't have a voice in world affairs.


    It doesn't have veto which sometimes suppresses our voice. We are no way behind P5 in foreign policy.

    Instead of writing too much now, let's go on ending the game.


    My age is 23 years and I bet I will see India in UNSC before 2040. If you also gonna remain alive by then, let's bet.
     
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  14. Martian

    Martian Respected Member Senior Member

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    I accept your bet.

    As long as DFI is around, I'll remind you each year that the world does not accept India as a UNSC permanent member.

    It has been almost 20 years. India has been trying to obtain a permanent seat at the UNSC. It never goes anywhere. India doesn't even come close. You can't even get a vote at the UN.
     
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  15. Indx TechStyle

    Indx TechStyle Perfaarmance Naarmal Senior Member

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    Done.
    BTW, what's your age. It will help me further determine the time till India should get.
    Who knows if I'm myself a diplomat, adviser or ambassador? :yo:
     
  16. Martian

    Martian Respected Member Senior Member

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    I'll live well past 2040.

    Your number one problem: China's veto.

    You saw China's other veto at the NSG. That's peanuts. UNSC represents real power. China will not allow an anti-China India to ever obtain a permanent veto. That's common sense.

    If you wanted a permanent seat at the UNSC, you Indians should have been smart enough not to be overtly anti-Chinese all these years. Today, no Han Chinese is stupid enough to trust India. A cursory look at Indian newspapers and the statements by Indian government officials show a huge anti-Chinese prejudice.

    Oh look, India's NDTV is bragging that the Indian Agni V can vaporize Beijing. Gee, I wonder if Han Chinese should agree to let India have a permanent veto at the UNSC? Not!

    Weekend test for Agni V, nuclear missile that can hit Beijing and beyond | NDTV

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2016
  17. Indx TechStyle

    Indx TechStyle Perfaarmance Naarmal Senior Member

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    Whatever, still years for India to catch up. Anything can change.
    You can troll me every year over UNSC and I won't mind.
    Here's case of Anti ChinChinese stance, our 55% trade goes on through SCS. We can't compromise here.:p
     
  18. rockey 71

    rockey 71 Regular Member

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    For real democracy, the vote of each nation is to be weighed according to its population. UNSC as it stands today ought to be scrapped to be replaced by something fair. The UN is nothing but a weapon in the hands of USA and the White Man.
     
  19. ezsasa

    ezsasa Senior Member Senior Member

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  20. Martian

    Martian Respected Member Senior Member

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    It doesn't matter. The Times of India is saying the same thing.

    Agni-III test-fired, can reach Beijing, Shanghai - Times of India

    [​IMG]

    ----------

    You are only half-right.

    Your argument is based on a quantitative viewpoint.

    However, you forgot to assess the qualitative strength of each country.

    A Chinese battalion can easily crush a neighboring country's battalion. The UNSC takes this qualitative difference into account.
     
  21. ezsasa

    ezsasa Senior Member Senior Member

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    You are right !!!!

    The article from 2008 should have a said
    " India builds a nuclear missile with 3000 km range for peaceful purposes" this should be inline with commie editorial standards.
     
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