China's SSN deployment threatens India's second-strike capability

[t_co]

We are ready to sign right after you hand over Aksai Chin, Shaksgham valley and recognize Arunachal Pradesh as part of India and give up all claims over it. Simple. Do when do we sign?

Ah. So you would rather keep this state of tension going, and maintain a threat of nuclear war towards a state with many more nukes than India, than compromise on a border agreement over a stretch of uninhabitable land?

Credible ASW warfare is not a matter of buying additional subs. ASW actually costs a lot more than infiltrating subs into said target areas, as both the USSR and US found out during the Cold War. And - to enter this tilted competition against a richer adversary over land claims which your own Henderson Brooks report addresses as spurious - the height of folly, perhaps?

 

[Yusuf]

Ah. So you would rather keep this state of tension going, and maintain a threat of nuclear war towards a state with many more nukes than India, than compromise on a border agreement over a stretch of uninhabitable land?

Credible ASW warfare is not a matter of buying additional subs. ASW actually costs a lot more than infiltrating subs into said target areas, as both the USSR and US found out during the Cold War. And - to enter this tilted competition against a richer adversary over land claims which your own Henderson Brooks report addresses as spurious - the height of folly, perhaps?

We are not going to let go of what is legitimately ours. China was and is on a land grabbing spree.

The 10 billion you talked about will be spread over a few years which we can afford. Our Rafale deal is anywhere between 10-15 billion.

 

[bengalraider]

How will you fit that into the budget?

We have more than enough money when you consider that we spend only 2.5 % of our GDP on defence currently, we can tweak that to 3%.A half percent translates to more money than is required for such a spend!

 

[t_co]

We are not going to let go of what is legitimately ours.

'legitimately' how?

China was and is on a land grabbing spree.

As has every large nation in existence today - that does not delegitimize any land claims.

The 10 billion you talked about will be spread over a few years which we can afford.

10 billion of foreign currency? From where?

Our Rafale deal is anywhere between 10-15 billion.

And how is the Rafale deal coming along? Looks like payment issues were cropping up the last I checked.

 

[t_co]

We have more than enough money when you consider that we spend only 2.5 % of our GDP on defence currently, we can tweak that to 3%.A half percent translates to more money than is required for such a spend!

And China can tweak its defense budget to 3% too - it's currently around 2% - and add 5x more money to its defense budget than India would. Then you'd have 15 Indian submarines facing off against 50, 60, 70 Chinese subs in the IOR...

 

[Yusuf]

And China can tweak its defense budget to 3% too - it's currently around 2% - and add 5x more money to its defense budget than India would. Then you'd have 15 Indian submarines facing off against 50, 60, 70 Chinese subs in the IOR...

No one knows what Chinas actual defence budget is. It may well be 3-4%.

You may well worry about pacific and South China Sea than sending 60 subs in Indian Ocean.

Anyway the point of this thread is Indian submarine capability to defend its backyard.

 

[Yusuf]

'legitimately' how?



As has every large nation in existence today - that does not delegitimize any land claims.



10 billion of foreign currency? From where?



And how is the Rafale deal coming along? Looks like payment issues were cropping up the last I checked.

That "how" you write is the root cause of the problem.

 

[DBF1954]

It took China many years to build modern submarines. They got started in the 1950s with help from Moscow, but the good, modern submarines were only built after the year 2000.

Even after 20 years of designing and building during the late 1970s a Chinese submarine was worse than a German submarine like the Type XXI from 1944.

That gives you an idea how long it would take India to reach a similar level.

 

[Abhijeet Dey]

It took China many years to build modern submarines. They got started in the 1950s with help from Moscow, but the good, modern submarines were only built after the year 2000.

Even after 20 years of designing and building during the late 1970s a Chinese submarine was worse than a German submarine like the Type XXI from 1944.

That gives you an idea how long it would take India to reach a similar level.

Nothing is impossible. As you know India is getting very good offers from both Russia and France for next generation diesel electric submarines (including transfer of technology). It all depends on Government owned shipyards if they are willing to learn & work hard and develop top class nuclear submarines.

 

[DBF1954]

I agree, it could be done with enough political support. Look at South Korea for example: In cooperation with Germany they are producing some of the best submarines and manage it well for years.

 

[bengalraider]

It took China many years to build modern submarines. They got started in the 1950s with help from Moscow, but the good, modern submarines were only built after the year 2000.

Even after 20 years of designing and building during the late 1970s a Chinese submarine was worse than a German submarine like the Type XXI from 1944.

That gives you an idea how long it would take India to reach a similar level.

The key to India's relatively better chances at attaining a good level of proficiency is licenced technology transfers, we did not try to reverse engineer or steal hence we are being taught by those who are masters at the craft of submarine building, china had chosen a much tougher and much more devious route that of beg, borrow or steal. they have had to learn by themselves. true learning by yourself is often better than being taught but then it is also much more time consuming and the chances of mistakes are also much higher.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

You are mistaking here, Unlike China we did not have restriction on getting technological data from other matured Submarine builders ..

For example we had HDW-209 tot long back but we waited for AIP, On other hand we have our own Multifunction Nuclear Submarine operational ..

That gives you an idea how long it would take India to reach a similar level.

 

[TrueSpirit1]

i think china blackmailed russia into giving it the latest russian submarine technology in return for it's support on the crimean issue.india should do the same.

Actually, in our case, it is the other way round.

It is not India that gets to blackmail Russia. It is Russia that gets to arm-twist India. Russians conveniently refuse to honour written contracts & agreements they have willingly entered into. Rings a bell ?

 

[TrueSpirit1]

And why is it that so many on DFI are in love with Putin?

Few things on top on mind:

1) US' relentless love affair with Pakis & Chinis (regardless of who resides in White House).

2) Nixon-Kissinger's notorious role in 1971 (think, USS Enterprise Seventh Fleet) & overlooking/condoning the largest ever genocide (of Bangla) after WWII (on the scale of Nazi cleansing of Jews/lesser-Germans). This memory lingers & ensures that US can NEVER be trusted.

3) Cultivating & sustaining Frankenstein terrorists regimes that refuse to serve their creators & run amok.

4) Inability of Pentagon & thinktanks to go beyond their cold-war mindset. "With us or against us" won't get you anywhere with India.

5) CIA's (in collusion with MI-6, ISI & other's) documented role in fomenting protracted, deadly insurgencies in Indian North-East, Punjab & J&K. This continues.

6) US' open siding with Pak in all conflicts & supplying it.

6) Hyphenation of India & Pakistan: This hurts Indian self-esteem big time but continues to be practices as a norm in the West (read, US).

7) Holier-than-thou attitude of American diplomats; pontificating about human rights/democracy. It is a sloppy & offending joke when the US does it to India. It is US which props & buttresses maximum despots of the world (think, Middle-East, Gulf) with security guarantees & what not, in the name of democracy & human rights.

8) Deep-rooted mutual distrust between the intelligence agencies, policy-making establishments & think-tanks of the two countries. It a widely held conviction that US has designs which are inimical to Indian sovereignty & territorial integrity.

9) US inherent lack of appetite for India's big power aspirations. World view differs- Unipolar vs. Multipolar

10) US Congressional laws are too complex to navigate & enter into any meaningful strategic partnership. Same can be said about India. But, both countries can make it work with other countries, like India does with with Russia, Vietnam, France & Japan while US does with its allies & Gulf Sheikhs (who fund, shore & brace terrorist cartels throughout Eurasia).

This list can go on & on....but the crux is: While US & India can benefit out of each other on multiple fronts where our interests converge, both nations would not come any closer embrace beyond a certain comfort-level. Too close an hug from US is suffocating. I said & I quote "With us or Against us" won't work here.

So, we are "partners" in some realms but "allies" ? Do not even think about it. Level of distrust is way too high to redeem.

 

[sayareakd]

What we really need to do as I've been saying forever on this forum now is to have multiple lines of production we need to have the Scorpenes being built simultaneously in France and In India(Mazagon docks) while Amurs are built Simultaneously in Russia and CSL. Along with the SSK lines we need to have multiple SSN lines open with SSN's being built at the L7T yards at chennai while our SSBN's are built at Vizag.Without this breakneck building speed we will stand little chance against the PLAN.

Sir other pressing needs are their. Untill our Eco come of depression cycle and experiance boom again. We need to make sure till such time as we can afford subs.We make better and hard choices.

Shaurya missile should be installed on ships and so is K4. These are ot alternative but will fill gap till we get sufficient capabilities.

 

[laughingbuddha]

There are news reports of Russia helping China acquire a new class of advanced 5th generation submarines (Kalina Class submarine). India should also ask for the same technology from Russia so as to counter Chinese SSN threat in the Indian Ocean..

Russia to give China more advanced submarine technology
Staff Reporter, 25-03-2014. wantchinatimes.com

LINK: wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?id=20140325000079&cid=1101

If we are to also get better technology for our subs (we already are getting "help" for the arihant) we have to not only continue but take to a new level our defence cooperation with Russia. Our war doctrine is now dependent on the capability of our SSBN capability and hence we better cozy up to the Russians. No one else is going to assist.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Sir, If that happens it will be a new class of ship in history of mankind with greater power-projection than an Aircraft carrier ..

Imagine a Ship, Armed with 10 x K4,15 x K15, 20 x PJ10 , 50 x Barak 1 & 50 x barak 2, With 8 x CIWS and has a range of 10,000kms with top speed of 32knots ..

Shaurya missile should be installed on ships and so is K4. These are ot alternative but will fill gap till we get sufficient capabilities.

 

[sayareakd]

Sir, If that happens it will be a new class of ship in history of mankind with greater power-projection than an Aircraft carrier ..

Imagine a Ship, Armed with 10 x K4,15 x K15, 20 x PJ10 , 50 x Barak 1 & 50 x barak 2, With 8 x CIWS and has a range of 10,000kms with top speed of 32knots ..

Sir for that we need fast and stealth ships, so that even subs or anti ship missiles cant hit them. Plus they get in launch zone, empty their packages and run fast back for next mission, with Universal launchers like in ATV. Commander will have choice as to what he want to launch from his VL tubes.

Hope navy guys plan something, we already have land version of K15 hoping of the same for K4 for ship launch.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I am going a little off-topic but what you suggested Sir, Is really interesting ..

I highly doubt if such vessels are put into action they will be acting separately, They will be a part of a CBG ..

Nothing will dare to come near such formidable formation ..

And such a fleet near ( 3000kms ) for any enemy shore will give enemy endless goosebumps ..

Sir for that we need fast and stealth ships, so that even subs or anti ship missiles cant hit them. Plus they get in launch zone, empty their packages and run fast back for next mission, with Universal launchers like in ATV. Commander will have choice as to what he want to launch from his VL tubes.

Hope navy guys plan something, we already have land version of K15 hoping of the same for K4 for ship launch.

 

[sayareakd]

Winning war is how all put your weapons to best use, in given situation.