China's SSN deployment threatens India's second-strike capability

Yusuf

GUARDIAN
Super Mod
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
24,324
Likes
11,757
Country flag
Admiral John Arbuthnot Fisher, British Admiral and First Sea Lord who rapidly built up the Royal Navy before the Great War, wrote nearly a century ago, "It is astounding to me, perfectly astounding, how the very best amongst us fail to realize the vast impending revolution in Naval warfare and Naval strategy that the submarine will accomplish."

Nearly a century later, the most enthusiastic proponents of his words are located in our part of the world. Reports of Chinese submarines venturing into the Indian Ocean seem to indicate they are getting uncomfortably close. So what? Surely if the Chinese have nuclear submarines, the Indian Ocean is obviously one of the Oceans where they can logically be expected to operate. Many among us would like to deny this, believing that the Chinese are still stuck with technology issues that preclude such a possibility. While we in India are still struggling to put our first "indigenous " nuclear submarine to sea, we would like to extend our own inabilities and inefficiencies to the Chinese - therefore they cannot deploy. Much like the US admiral who dismissed submarines in the late 19th century, 'The Holland boats are interesting novelties which appeal to the non-professional mind, which is apt to invest them with remarkable properties they do not posses"

In addition to the SSBNs the Chinese have a robust SSN and conventional submarine building programme. Their 091, 093 and 095 SSN programmes have turned out about eight submarines in the past four decades. This is sufficient to master the adopted technology and fix glitches in the design (possibly with external assistance). The very fact that the Chinese have built greater number of submarines and operated them means their technical expertise and operating experience is substantially greater than ours. Add to this the Chinese capability of deploying 1000 km range tube launched cruise missiles and other shorter range missiles and torpedoes.

A Chinese SSN operating in the Bay of Bengal or the Arabian Sea can pose a substantial threat to our Navy.

The ability of the Vikramaditya Carrier Battle Group to establish and sustain sea control even in our own backyard will be seriously challenged. Anybody with elementary knowledge of naval tactics can figure out the clear and present danger that a SSN with missile and torpedoes present. In addition the SSNs can mark our SSBNs which may have to transit to the South China Sea, compromising our assured second strike capability. There are at least three broad areas we would need to rapidly build up:

a)Submarines
We need to have adequate force levels of SSNs and SSBNs if credible minimum deterrence under the averred policy of 'No First Use' (NFU) is to have any credibility at all. In order to be able to deploy SSNs and SSBNs we need to develop the ability to design and construct these submarines in India. We wasted whatever little experience we had had in submarine construction by in-advisedly and prematurely shutting down the HDW programme after commissioning INS Shankul in 1994. While we were building these submarines in Mazagoan Docks, even before commissioning the first submarine, we inducted the 877 EKMs.-as if predetermined to stop submarine construction in India. We started our learning process all over again with the Scorpene programme in 2005, and the manner in which it is progressing, we seem to be slow learners. Instead of consolidating our skills and developing the industrial base required to sustain submarine building we seen to be intent upon diversifying the submarine production lines. The sad truth is that our conventional submarine production capability, which could have provided substantial support to indigenous SSN and SSBN building, is nonexistent. If we have to deter the Chinese we need to be able to deploy at least 6 -8 SSNs and a number of SSBNs depending on their weapons capability.

b) Surveillance and Reconnaissance
The main stay of airborne ASW surveillance was based on the IL38s and the TU142s obtained from the Russians. It took the Navy many years to convince the government of the need to move away from Russian technology especially with regard to ASW and C4I issues. The induction of the P8Is may bring in a qualitative jump in our air ASW capability. While surveillance efficiency may have improved, the problem that the exploitable vastness of the Bay of Bengal and the Arabian Sea still pose great challenges in the initial detection of submarines. Initial detection is always the vital first step in ASW.

c) Strategic ASW
In order to be able to improve the probability of detection of submarines we need to have sustained surveillance efforts both in the spatial and temporal domains. The only cost effective method is the deployment of sea bed arrays to augment air borne ASW. Though NPOL have worked on this programme it has so not reached the deployable stage. So is the case with the indigenous long range sonobuoy and Nagin towed array systems.

We are nowhere close to mastering crucial technology areas of submarine design and construction and the development of strategic ASW systems. We are still struggling to send the Arihant to sea. The indigenous conventional submarine building programme is in a limbo- with the delays in the Scorpene programme and the Hamletitude in decision making on the Project 75i. There are no visible signs of an SSN construction programme.

In the world of strategic deterrence , credibility is established only by capability and reinforced by posture and resolve. If we do not have capability there can be no deterrence. If we do not have the capability to challenge or riposte we will become so fearsome of the enemy capability that we will have no bargaining chips to negotiate. We will become self deterred by our incapacity. A Nuclear submarine poses a considerable threat. A few of them can cut off our lines of communication to our island territories and place at risk critical targets which lie within 800 kms of the coast.

The immediate need is to create capability to give credence to our policy. It was envisioned that the submarine building capability would be achieved through the "consortium approach by a web of public-private partnership." This web of capability building has so far remained knotted in the confused web of decision making. The MoDs priority in trying to keep PSU and defence shipyards afloat appears to be at cross purposes with the requirement TOestablish, consolidate and imbibe submarine design and construction capability.

China's SSN deployment threatens India's second-strike capability
 

Abhijeet Dey

Senior Member
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
1,728
Likes
2,447
Country flag
There are news reports of Russia helping China acquire a new class of advanced 5th generation submarines (Kalina Class submarine). India should also ask for the same technology from Russia so as to counter Chinese SSN threat in the Indian Ocean..

Russia to give China more advanced submarine technology
Staff Reporter, 25-03-2014. wantchinatimes.com

LINK: wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?id=20140325000079&cid=1101

Instead of providing the older Lada-class submarines to the People's Liberation Army Navy as requested by Beijing, Russia's president, Vladimir Putin, will likely authorize China to receive the more advanced Kalina-class submarine, reports the Voice of Russia, citing Vassily Kashin, a senior research fellow from the Moscow-based Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies.

Viktor Chirkov, the commander-in-chief of the Russian Navy, officially announced that the Kalina-class conventional submarine equipped with an advanced air-independent propulsion system will be developed and produced in the future on Mar. 20. "Russia is currently designing a fifth-generation conventional submarine, dubbed Project Kalina, which will be fitted with an air-independent propulsion (AIP) system," said Chirkov.

Authorities also declared that the construction of the older Lada-class submarine will be cancelled. The Lada-class, or Project 677, is a fourth-generation diesel-electric submarine based on the older Kilo-class submarine.

China was negotiating with Russia to purchase four Lada-class submarines from the Rubin Design Bureau based in St Petersburg. China hoped those submarines could be refitted with Chinese engines and an electronic fire-control system, according to the Canada-based Kanwa Defense Review.

As Russia remains isolated over its intervention in the Ukraine crisis, Moscow values China's position as one of its strategic partners, Kashin said. He added that the PLA Navy will benefit from the cancellation of the Lada-class as it will open a new door for China to gain more advanced technology from Russia to build its own submarine in the future. Meanwhile, China may be able to design its own fifth-generation conventional submarine with the help of Russia under this new concept, Kashin said.
 

bengalraider

DFI Technocrat
Ambassador
Joined
Oct 10, 2009
Messages
3,779
Likes
2,666
Country flag
What we really need to do as I've been saying forever on this forum now is to have multiple lines of production we need to have the Scorpenes being built simultaneously in France and In India(Mazagon docks) while Amurs are built Simultaneously in Russia and CSL. Along with the SSK lines we need to have multiple SSN lines open with SSN's being built at the L7T yards at chennai while our SSBN's are built at Vizag.Without this breakneck building speed we will stand little chance against the PLAN.
 

shuvo@y2k10

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
2,653
Likes
6,709
Country flag
i think china blackmailed russia into giving it the latest russian submarine technology in return for it's support on the crimean issue.india should do the same.
 

Abhijeet Dey

Senior Member
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
1,728
Likes
2,447
Country flag
What we really need to do as I've been saying forever on this forum now is to have multiple lines of production we need to have the Scorpenes being built simultaneously in France and In India(Mazagon docks) while Amurs are built Simultaneously in Russia and CSL. Along with the SSK lines we need to have multiple SSN lines open with SSN's being built at the L7T yards at chennai while our SSBN's are built at Vizag.Without this breakneck building speed we will stand little chance against the PLAN.
On 12 September 2011, it was announced that Pipavav Shipyard, a shipbuilding company in Gujarat entered a joint venture with Mazagon Dock Limited to collaborately build warships and submarines using Pipavav's facilities. The deal will free up the congested order book of Mazagon shipyard and will give Pipavav a much needed boost in defence shipbuilding. It is one of the largest and leading shipbuilding company in India, spread over 500 acres (2.0 km2). It has access to over 720 meters of exclusive waterfront.

Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pipavav_Shipyard
 

W.G.Ewald

Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2
Professional
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
Messages
14,139
Likes
8,594
Russia To Provide China With Kalina-Class Submarines

Russia President Vladimir Putin will reportedly grant China more advanced Kalina-class submarine instead of providing them with older Lada-class submarines.

Earlier last week, the Commander of Russian Navy, Adm. Viktor Chirkov said that the new fifth-generation submarines will be designated as the Kalina class.



"Russia is currently designing a fifth-generation conventional submarine, dubbed Project Kalina, which will be fitted with an air-independent propulsion (AIP) system," Adm. Viktor Chirkov said."Our industry promises to develop this AIP system by 2017 and build the first boat fitted with such a system by 2018".



The admiral earlier said that the new AIP system could be initially tested on the only operational Lada-class diesel-electric submarine in service with the Russian Navy, the St.



Authorities also declared that the construction of the older Lada-class submarine will be cancelled. The Lada-class, or Project 677, is a fourth-generation diesel-electric submarine based on the older Kilo-class submarine, according to wantchinatimes.com.
And why is it that so many on DFI are in love with Putin?
 

bengalraider

DFI Technocrat
Ambassador
Joined
Oct 10, 2009
Messages
3,779
Likes
2,666
Country flag
On 12 September 2011, it was announced that Pipavav Shipyard, a shipbuilding company in Gujarat entered a joint venture with Mazagon Dock Limited to collaborately build warships and submarines using Pipavav's facilities. The deal will free up the congested order book of Mazagon shipyard and will give Pipavav a much needed boost in defence shipbuilding. It is one of the largest and leading shipbuilding company in India, spread over 500 acres (2.0 km2). It has access to over 720 meters of exclusive waterfront.

Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pipavav_Shipyard
The issue being that this collaboration came to naught as the whole process of redistributing orders has been stuck in red tape till date .
 

Kunal Biswas

Member of the Year 2011
Ambassador
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
31,122
Likes
41,042
As there is a saying goes by, ' Best anti-submarine system is another Submarine .. '

We can make our own SSK under 1000 tons without AIP, This can be done at very fast rate ..

We have tot from HDW-209 submarines and our own experience from Arihant class SSNB ..

Such small submarine can be effective for regional defense, Where as bigger SSK will can be deployed beyond control waters ..

This is an another option we have ..
 

Jagdish58

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2014
Messages
796
Likes
644
What we really need to do as I've been saying forever on this forum now is to have multiple lines of production we need to have the Scorpenes being built simultaneously in France and In India(Mazagon docks) while Amurs are built Simultaneously in Russia and CSL. Along with the SSK lines we need to have multiple SSN lines open with SSN's being built at the L7T yards at chennai while our SSBN's are built at Vizag.Without this breakneck building speed we will stand little chance against the PLAN.
Great comment:thumb:

Unfortunetely we don't have peoples like you heading MOD , Armed force , NSA on top of that Parliament cabinet

we are just happy blameing each other & playing at safer size jepordizing defence prepardness:sad:
 

xuxu

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2014
Messages
33
Likes
41
My god, don't make Chinese looks as a stupid, if attack India, China will never use nuke missile from subs, why?

Bcs from land is more comfort than from subs, from land only cheap 1000km range missiles can reach most cities of India and more safe; from subs, let subs in danger overseas after fire missiles and wast the 8000km range nuke missiles; If China's subs go in to Indian Sea, that means hold strength in deep sea from deep South China Sea, subs from South China Sea to Indian Ocean then Cruise to Pacific Ocean,and then come back; difficult to enter Pacific Ocean since the shallow water and the anti-subs net in first island chain.
 

Kunal Biswas

Member of the Year 2011
Ambassador
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
31,122
Likes
41,042
Few Notes :

1. No one talking about SSBN but SSN & SSK ..

2. At this discussion we are not concern about PLAN SSN, They are most louder SSN at present ..

3. We are busy criticizing our own system ..

I hope you read the title and article so does comment before posting a reply ..

My god, don't make Chinese looks as a stupid, if attack India, China will never use nuke missile from subs, why? .
 

Yusuf

GUARDIAN
Super Mod
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
24,324
Likes
11,757
Country flag
My god, don't make Chinese looks as a stupid, if attack India, China will never use nuke missile from subs, why?

Bcs from land is more comfort than from subs, from land only cheap 1000km range missiles can reach most cities of India and more safe; from subs, let subs in danger overseas after fire missiles and wast the 8000km range nuke missiles; If China's subs go in to Indian Sea, that means hold strength in deep sea from deep South China Sea, subs from South China Sea to Indian Ocean then Cruise to Pacific Ocean,and then come back; difficult to enter Pacific Ocean since the shallow water and the anti-subs net in first island chain.
Duh we are not talking about SSBNs we are talking about SSKs and SSGNs. We are worried about our carriers and other ships that will be vulnerable if we don't have our own killer subs.
 

t_co

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2012
Messages
2,538
Likes
709
What we really need to do as I've been saying forever on this forum now is to have multiple lines of production we need to have the Scorpenes being built simultaneously in France and In India(Mazagon docks) while Amurs are built Simultaneously in Russia and CSL. Along with the SSK lines we need to have multiple SSN lines open with SSN's being built at the L7T yards at chennai while our SSBN's are built at Vizag.Without this breakneck building speed we will stand little chance against the PLAN.
How will you fit that into the budget?
 

t_co

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2012
Messages
2,538
Likes
709
Duh we are not talking about SSBNs we are talking about SSKs and SSGNs. We are worried about our carriers and other ships that will be vulnerable if we don't have our own killer subs.
There is a simpler, cheaper solution to the problem: simply sign the damn agreement formalizing the LoAC, trade basing rights at Sanya for basing rights at Mumbai, and set up joint anti-piracy patrols with the PLAN along China's trade routes in the IOR.
 

sayareakd

Mod
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
17,734
Likes
18,952
Country flag
How will you fit that into the budget?
we can have cheap solutions to counter china. Put those pontoon all along Indian Coast and in lakes with missiles and live nukes. 20 -30 of these will be enough it will second strike capability till 5-8 ATV become operational.
 

Abhijeet Dey

Senior Member
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
1,728
Likes
2,447
Country flag
There is a simpler, cheaper solution to the problem: simply sign the damn agreement formalizing the LoAC, trade basing rights at Sanya for basing rights at Mumbai, and set up joint anti-piracy patrols with the PLAN along China's trade routes in the IOR.
OFF Topic!!
You mean Aksai Chin should be handed over to India :suspicious:
 

Yusuf

GUARDIAN
Super Mod
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
24,324
Likes
11,757
Country flag
There is a simpler, cheaper solution to the problem: simply sign the damn agreement formalizing the LoAC, trade basing rights at Sanya for basing rights at Mumbai, and set up joint anti-piracy patrols with the PLAN along China's trade routes in the IOR.
We are ready to sign right after you hand over Aksai Chin, Shaksgham valley and recognize Arunachal Pradesh as part of India and give up all claims over it. Simple. Do when do we sign?
 

Yusuf

GUARDIAN
Super Mod
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
24,324
Likes
11,757
Country flag
How will you fit that into the budget?
They will not cost much. Its a great idea to get HDWs back into production using our ToT plus our know how on scorpene and Arihant. Make them in numbers. They can be the LCAs of the navy. Cheap and in numbers for area defence while bigger boats go on other mission
 

Kunal Biswas

Member of the Year 2011
Ambassador
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
31,122
Likes
41,042
You are going way off topic and inviting flame to your well placed post , Do you understand this .. ?

There is a simpler, cheaper solution to the problem: simply sign the damn agreement formalizing the LoAC, trade basing rights at Sanya for basing rights at Mumbai, and set up joint anti-piracy patrols with the PLAN along China's trade routes in the IOR.
 

t_co

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2012
Messages
2,538
Likes
709
They will not cost much. Its a great idea to get HDWs back into production using our ToT plus our know how on scorpene and Arihant. Make them in numbers. They can be the LCAs of the navy. Cheap and in numbers for area defence while bigger boats go on other mission
Doing what he suggested requires an additional $10bn outlay on a $40bn defense budget - or a tripling of the Navy's capital budget. Where are you getting that money from?
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top